The New Christian Thread

[outlikeatrout]

"All our righteousness is like filthy rags"

(Isa 64:4-9)

Research guise...

We are only saved by the grace of God

amen

[StrongPostBrah]

From my understanding Josephus wrote about what Christians believed, not directly about Jesus. I'm not aware of any other authors mentioning anything other than "The Christ" not Jesus specifically. I'm not saying he didn't exist, just that he's mythical. Myths are often based on or contain some truth.

You do know that a lot of scholars believe the Gospels to be great historical texts? You do know that we have more evidence for Christ, and have more reason to believe in Christ, than we do for hundreds of other historical figures that we don't dispute the existence of. If you took away any bias towards Christ/Christianity and with the evidence compared the writing of the Gospels, the amount of copies we have and the accuracy of the Gospels with Herodotus' writings it would make more sense to believe in Jesus than it would be to believe in anything from Herodotus writings or even Herodotus himself. And yet, we call Herodotus the "Father of History".

I do understand though that you are calling him mythical, not saying he doesn't exist altogether. But what evidence do you have that it is a myth of Jesus rather than an accurate story about his life and death? To say "because of the miraculous stuff" begs the question and presupposes bias. You need more than that.

[IAmthefifthmeat]

anybody else filled with a strong feeling to worship Him today?

today was a good day.

[Harbinger]

You do know that a lot of scholars believe the Gospels to be great historical texts? You do know that we have more evidence for Christ, and have more reason to believe in Christ, than we do for hundreds of other historical figures that we don't dispute the existence of. If you took away any bias towards Christ/Christianity and with the evidence compared the writing of the Gospels, the amount of copies we have and the accuracy of the Gospels with Herodotus' writings it would make more sense to believe in Jesus than it would be to believe in anything from Herodotus writings or even Herodotus himself. And yet, we call Herodotus the "Father of History".

I do understand though that you are calling him mythical, not saying he doesn't exist altogether. But what evidence do you have that it is a myth of Jesus rather than an accurate story about his life and death? To say "because of the miraculous stuff" begs the question and presupposes bias. You need more than that.

I waffle a lot back and forth about it. Sometimes I believe Jesus existed, sometimes not. I can't really point to any one thing or group of things and say that's why, it's just a summation of everything I've read over the years.

[bird72]

I'm not aware of any other authors mentioning anything other than "The Christ" not Jesus specifically..

so now you want historians to quote about Jesus with his last name and social security number....................? I doubt there was many people named "The Christ" in Palestine on those days.

Application to the Historicity of Jesus.
It would be naive to suggest that the only type of historical evidence is textual evidence. However, because most of the alleged evidence for the historicity of Jesus is textual evidence, I think it would be well worth our time to briefly discus what the prima facie concept means when applied to textual evidence. In so doing, I would like to propose some criteria of independent confirmation (CIC) for empiricial claims made in written documents. For purposes of this discussion, I shall label a source 'independent' of another source if and only if it does not rely upon that other source for its information. (For example, on the two-source hypothesis, the gospels of Matthew and Luke would be independent of each other, but dependent upon both Q and the gospel of Mark.)

Although a discussion of the New Testament evidence is beyond the scope of this paper, I think that the New Testament does provide prima facie evidence for the historicity of Jesus. It is clear, then, that if we are going to apply to the New Testament "the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material,"[19] we should not require independent confirmation of the New Testament's claim that Jesus existed.
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/indconf.html

[ppself]

I waffle a lot back and forth about it. Sometimes I believe Jesus existed, sometimes not. I can't really point to any one thing or group of things and say that's why, it's just a summation of everything I've read over the years.

So basically, you have read more resources that denounce or erase Christ from history. Which has led you to not believe he is, what he is. Right?

[Harbinger]

so now you want historians to quote about Jesus with his last name and social security number....................? I doubt there was many people named "The Christ" in Palestine on those days.

There we several attempts to produce "The Christ" throughout history.

[Harbinger]

So basically, you have read more resources that denounce or erase Christ from history. Which has led you to not believe he is, what he is. Right?

I couldn't say if was more or just more compelling.

[bird72]

There we several attempts to produce "The Christ" throughout history.

Mentioned, which specifically mentions someone calling himself Christ?

[ppself]

I couldn't say if was more or just more compelling.

So if you read the compelling evidence hundreds of years ago that the earth was indeed flat, you would be fine aggreeing that the earth was flat?

Why would you accept the "compelling" evidence that Christ was not in fact Christ, but deny the compelling evidence that Christ is in fact the messiah?

[Harbinger]

So if you read the compelling evidence hundreds of years ago that the earth was indeed flat, you would be fine aggreeing that the earth was flat?

Why would you accept the "compelling" evidence that Christ was not in fact Christ, but deny the compelling evidence that Christ is in fact the messiah?

There isn't any evidence IMO that Jesus was the messiah. In fact, there's evidence that he isn't. I believe god made a list of things the messiah would do, that's how we'd know he was the messiah. Jesus hasn't done them.

[bird72]

There isn't any evidence that Jesus was the messiah. In fact, there's evidence that he isn't. I believe god made a list of things the messiah would do, that's how we'd know he was the messiah. Jesus hasn't done them.

You are just repeating things like a mantra, trying to show them as facts, please be more specific about them. Which one are the "things" that Jesus hasn't done?

[Harbinger]

You are just repeating things like a mantra, trying to show them as facts, please be more specific about them. Which one are the "things" that Jesus hasn't done?

Let's just do one for now, a pretty big one.

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

[ppself]

Let's just do one for now, a pretty big one.

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

When was this declared to happen?

[Harbinger]

When was this declared to happen?

When the messiah comes, it will be one of the ways we'll know he's the messiah.

[bird72]

When the messiah comes, it will be one of the ways we'll know he's the messiah.

Wrong.

Isaiah 2

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (2:2)

Let's just do one for now, a pretty big one.

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Future.....

Isaiah 2

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (2:2)

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD fr(2:3)

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (2:4)



Give me something more dificult......please..

[ppself]

Give me something more dificult......please..

Yes, please. :P

I like these kind of quizzes.

[Harbinger]

Wrong.

Isaiah 2

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (2:2)



Future.....

Isaiah 2

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (2:2)

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD fr(2:3)

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (2:4)



Give me something more dificult......please..

Where does this say it will be during a second coming?

[Harbinger]

The sun is setting, I'll be busy for a few hours...

[bird72]

Yes, please. :P

I like these kind of quizzes.

I like it also.

[bird72]

Where does this say it will be during a second coming?

"And it shall come to pass in the last days"

[ppself]

We had some bible talk here at work just now. And few peeps were trying to figure out why Moses staff could turn into a snake and the pharaohs boys could do the same thing.

I told them that even demons could preform miracles, and that the real test is did it come from god or demons.

Then this one guy went off on the council of nicea and junk. Another guy that started actually had knowledge in this area and was schooling him in it. So the other guy wasn't getting angry but was getting frustrated that someone actually knew what they were talking about and ended the convo in a nice manner.

This guy is always like that, promotion evolution and junk but when someone says their opinion that involves God he says nono and stops the convo.

I think he realizes that he can't talk theology without getting upset over it and stops the convo. Which is nice of him i guess. It's like one of them that gets so flustered they can't talk.

[outlikeatrout]

We had some bible talk here at work just now. And few peeps were trying to figure out why Moses staff could turn into a snake and the pharaohs boys could do the same thing.

I like how the miracles get harder and harder and then even the magicians are like "uh oh...maybe this is from God."

"The magicians tried by their secret arts to produce gnats, but they could not. So there were gnats on man and beast. Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, 'This is the finger of God.' "
Exodus 8:18

I told them that even demons could preform miracles, and that the real test is did it come from god or demons.

Then this one guy went off on the council of nicea and junk. Another guy that started actually had knowledge in this area and was schooling him in it. So the other guy wasn't getting angry but was getting frustrated that someone actually knew what they were talking about and ended the convo in a nice manner.

This guy is always like that, promotion evolution and junk but when someone says their opinion that involves God he says nono and stops the convo.

I think he realizes that he can't talk theology without getting upset over it and stops the convo. Which is nice of him i guess. It's like one of them that gets so flustered they can't talk.

[ppself]

I like how the miracles get harder and harder and then even the magicians are like "uh oh...maybe this is from God."

"The magicians tried by their secret arts to produce gnats, but they could not. So there were gnats on man and beast. Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, 'This is the finger of God.' "
Exodus 8:18

Dang, i wish i knew that verse. I would have brought that up too.

[mistercollie]

If you are not Christian, you are blind to what a true born again believer can see.

And the Lord also says ignorance is no excuse and is damnable.

Then prove it. Prove to me that ignorance is a basis for permanent destruction. Death, for any and every imperfect human, is temporary. That is the meaning of the first death. And, furthermore, even if it is God that puts a person to death the first time, that does not exclude one from the resurrection hope. Otherwise, the sacrifice of Jesus would have meant nothing for humanity. It excludes no one.

"For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." - Rom. 6:7

"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." - John 5:28, 29

"and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." - Acts 24:15

"Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod´om and Go·mor´rah on Judgment Day than for that city." - Matt 10:15

"Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit." - 1 Pet. 3:18

[Harbinger]

"And it shall come to pass in the last days"

That's the last days, not a second coming. There is no concept of a second coming in the OT. God made a list of things the messiah was to do, Jesus didn't do several of them. Jesus wasn't a prophet, the messiah was to be a prophet. Jesus wasn't descended on his father's side from King David. There is oh so much more and, this is what the Jewish scholars believe not what Christian scholars have twisted. I'm going to assume you've already decided I'm wrong and aren't going to consider what I've said here so, I'll bid you all good day.

Peace.

[bird72]

That's the last days, not a second coming. There is no concept of a second coming in the OT.

Let’s see the first coming of the Messiah.This is a prophesy of the Messiah hundreds of years before his arrival, even you can't deny it.

Isaiah 53
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? (53:1)

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (53:2)

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (53:3)

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (53:4)

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (53:5)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (53:6)

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (53:7)

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (53:8)

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (53:9)

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (53:10)

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (53:11)

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the tra(53:12)


In this verse you can see part of the reason why that Jews didn’t want to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, because them concentrate themself, seeking for a Messiah who is going to be a conquerer, but what the Jews of that époque couldn’t saw was that the Messiah was going to come to save the world from an spiritual point of view, and to gave his live as a price to pay for the sins of the human kind.

Looks what Jesus say about this topic…

John
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. (9:39)

And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? (9:40)

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. (9:41)


They(the Jews)were blinded due to their absence of faith and hardness


Isaiah 6
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. (6:8)

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (6:9)

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. (6:10)

Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, (6:11)

Is clear like water, that the Jews were gone to be blindead due to their hardened heart, and this is prophetised, hundreads of years before the Christ came to earth.


__________________________________________________ __________________________



Let’s see the second coming of the Messiah. This is a prophesy of the Messiah to be fulfilled in the future…..


Daniel 7
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. (7:13)

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (7:14)


Zechariah 2
10 “Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the LORD. 11 “Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.

In this verse is clear that the people of Israel had a doubt about the Messiah, but this time…. “you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you” in other words this time them are going to know I’m who I’m.

God made a list of things the messiah was to do, Jesus didn't do several of them. Jesus wasn't a prophet, the messiah was to be a prophet. Jesus wasn't descended on his father's side from King David. There is oh so much more and, this is what the Jewish scholars believe not what Christian scholars have twisted. I'm going to assume you've already decided I'm wrong and aren't going to consider what I've said here so, I'll bid you all good day.

Peace.

Let's don't blend the prophesies we could taken them one by one...
...

[bblake08]

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blah blah blah..in the end no one knows if he is real or not...


If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

... If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?


the bible contradicts itself so much, i do not know wat to believe..thats why im agnostic...id rather live this life, loving every moment..living for myself, my family and friends..then rather living for sumone i have never spoken to, or seen...i have better morals then half of the christians in this world...don't get me wrong, i think its cool to have faith..i have no hate against it...i just cant be 100% about something...we've been taught to hypothesize, and study study till its proven...but ehhh IMO, this cant be proven...no one knows wat happens after u die, till u die...and u still might not know wat happens..

theres so many fake christians, its terrible...ha my dad is catholic, and goes " that guy should be put to death." lol i asked him if he was catholic still, and he got pissed

[ppself]

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blah blah blah..in the end no one knows if he is real or not...

In the end, we know he is real. And he will place judgment on your soul if you don't humble yourself before him.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

... If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

Not this argument again.

What atheist website you copy pasta this from?

But i am curious as to how you think god should have eradicated evil? And you do realize that he will prevent evil after the second coming, right?

the bible contradicts itself so much, i do not know wat to believe..thats why im agnostic...id rather live this life, loving every moment..living for myself, my family and friends..then rather living for sumone i have never spoken to, or seen...i have better morals then half of the christians in this world...don't get me wrong, i think its cool to have faith..i have no hate against it...i just cant be 100% about something...we've been taught to hypothesize, and study study till its proven...but ehhh IMO, this cant be proven...no one knows wat happens after u die, till u die...and u still might not know wat happens..

theres so many fake christians, its terrible...ha my dad is catholic, and goes " that guy should be put to death." lol i asked him if he was catholic still, and he got pissed

It's easy to say the bible contradicts itself so much when you don't list the contradictions.

Should be easy to do, since there so many.

[bird72]

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i have better morals then half of the christians in this world...

Then, why you are here mixing your saint presence with us the bad and evil Criztianzzzzz!