Diet advice in the face of severe metabolic damage

[yakabebe]

As some would know I've been competing now for 8 years running.

As luck would have it the method used to gain the level of lean required to perform at the top of the game for me has been a most difficult task. The advice used and which definitely succeeded led to an ever-increasing reduction in carbs and an ever-decreasing calorie intake. Year after year, the #'s needed to keep coming down to get the impact.

This year and against advice to take a break (spoke with Layne Norton on this - a true guru) and to allow a couple of years to go and see if a "reset" of the metabolism could be effected, stupid stubborn me said fk it...I wanna compete.

WELL WORTH WATCHING>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw3kfRkqVWU

Which leads me to my present enquiry.

Last year I eventually had to arrive at the astonishingly low level of calories of about 800-900 c/day and that also necessitated 5 full gym sessions and at least 4 x 1-1.5hrs cardio per week. And with almost zero carbs for 6 of 7 days.

As a consequence, it seems my basal metabolic rate is so low that when I placed myself on a calorie intake of about 2,500 c/day post comp...even then I went up in weight from 79kg to 91kg (174# to 200#). Body fat remained sort of lowish ~12-15%.

Started my cut about 2 months ago. Reduced cals to 1,800 c/day for the first month and lost zero. Lowish carbs but still there each meal

Month two...dropped to 1500 c/d and introduced 3x1hr cardio & 4x30min hiit per week and of course, my 5 gym sessions. Dropped 1kg in week 1-2 (noice...feeling great)...past week regained 1 kg {shaking head}

Now time has started to press as my first compo is in mid Sept.

Seeing my past experience and the likely need to go to the same game plan...I guess what Im asking for from those with some experience is...what is an alternative?

Hopefully ideas will flow that I can take away and institute in my programme

Heres a pic of how I look atm

[induced_drag]

As some would know I've been competing now for 8 years running.

As luck would have it the method used to gain the level of lean required to perform at the top of the game for me has been a most difficult task. The advice used and which definitely succeeded led to an ever-increasing reduction in carbs and an ever-decreasing calorie intake. Year after year, the #'s needed to keep coming down to get the impact.

This year and against advice to take a break (spoke with Layne Norton on this - a true guru) and to allow a couple of years to go and see if a "reset" of the metabolism could be effected, stupid stubborn me said fk it...I wanna compete.

Which leads me to my present enquiry.

Last year I eventually had to arrive at the astonishingly low level of calories of about 800-900 c/day and that also necessitated 5 full gym sessions and at least 4 x 1-1.5hrs cardio per week. And with almost zero carbs for 6 of 7 days.

As a consequence, it seems my basal metabolic rate is so low that when I placed myself on a calorie intake of about 2,500 c/day post comp...even then I went up in weight from 79kg to 91kg (174# to 200#). Body fat remained sort of lowish ~12-15%.

Started my cut about 2 months ago. Reduced cals to 1,800 c/day for the first month and lost zero. Lowish carbs but still there each meal

Month two...dropped to 1500 c/d and introduced 3x1hr cardio & 4x30min hiit per week and of course, my 5 gym sessions. Dropped 1kg in week 1-2 (noice...feeling great)...past week regained 1 kg {shaking head}

Now time has started to press as my first compo is in mid Sept.

Seeing my past experience and the likely need to go to the same game plan...I guess what Im asking for from those with some experience is...what is an alternative?

Hopefully ideas will flow that I can take away and institute in my programme

Heres a pic of how I look atm

]

wow....That is very low. Have you had a thyroid panel done?

[djflex]

Cant offer a top competitor like yourself any advice.

But my mind was blown at 800-900 calories a day. I would prob pass out in the gym.


Good luck man and welcome back

[anonymous]

Second the thyroid, also. Less your very lucky genetically, your igf1 would likely be in double digits from those low cals and e exercise.. Get that tested with all other hormones

[yakabebe]

Second the thyroid, also. Less your very lucky genetically, your igf1 would likely be in double digits from those low cals and e exercise.. Get that tested with all other hormones

Thanx...and if so, what then?

Is there some remediation other than either
a.shelving my comp goals and trying to take a couple of years to reset or
b.go hard to show at whatever has to be done...

Is there something I can do that perhaps medicinally alters the metabolism in favour of greater metabolism?

I thought HIIT was supposed to enhance the metabolism for a significant period of time thereafter...but so far...its had little observable impact.

[induced_drag]

Thanx...and if so, what then?

Is there some remediation other than either
a.shelving my comp goals and trying to take a couple of years to reset or
b.go hard to show at whatever has to be done...

Is there something I can do that perhaps medicinally alters the metabolism in favour of greater metabolism?

I thought HIIT was supposed to enhance the metabolism for a significant period of time thereafter...but so far...its had little observable impact.

The thyroid regulates metobolic rate among other things. One thing you can do to test if it is low functioning, is take your body temp. If you are consistently a degree low (or more) you are most likely hypo-thyroid. Thyroid also will affect insulin sensitivity and play a role in how you lay down bodyfat. It is something you really want functioning properly.

There are a bunch of things you can do to speed your metabolic rate up. Not sure what is allowed in the federation you compete in though so I wont suggest any. Either way....SOMETHING is off. I agree with halfway....get a hormone panel done and see what is going on.

[Electricheadd]

I spent 18 months in a cut and ended up in similar but less extreme position. 200lb guy working out 5 times/week cardio 4 days eating 1800 calories and losing **** for weight. I opted for the reverse diet similar to what Layne would suggest. To this point its worked amazingly well, you can check out my log if you want its in my signature. The extent of the damage that you have seems much more so its seems likely you will need to raise calories much less aggressively than I did. It will probably take you a year or more if I were to speculate.

ID mentioned taking your temperature as an indicator low thyroid, I did this for the first couple of weeks before I started my reverse and found I was running 1.5 degrees low. Funny thing is I was always cold in the afternoon but never put the two together. Its pretty much back to normal now after getting calories up to 2500-2600.

[drudixon]

The panel and reset are the most important things I think ( based on what I've read, not personal experience ). Your body has done exactly what you taught it to do. Undoing it will take time and may be a better alternative for long term health. I think the stim route would just be a bandaid, and while it may help for one contest, won't for subsequent ones, merely delaying the problem. And, they come with problems. Fentermene works, but it can be dangerous and is prescription only. Caffeine, plus ephedra could work, but again is short term. Have you tried ladder dieting?

[highiso]

So it is possible to screw up your metabolic rate indefinitely?

[trickyB]

6 months at a deficit can result in altered Thyroid Function Tests (personal experience). I hope you put your ambition to compete aside and do what is right for your body. Good luck

[Ralikar]

This a great post... Thanks OP! Really was worth the 30 min to watch that video. Right before I came to the boards I was thinking that this loooog slow cut I've done probably has messed up my metabolism. So it was a great video to look it and personally timely. For me, I've had a history of too much exercise and too low cals and overall inconsistency and this cut has been slower and better than the ones before. I can see why -- because I really let my body adapt to the levels for a long period without doing a -100 each week. And I've gotten success actually upping cals slightly and resisting the old urge to drop them. Great post OP.

Really worth the 30 min of video time for people.

[highiso]

Watched vid. Just found out I'm anorexic. Srs.

[Electricheadd]

So it is possible to screw up your metabolic rate indefinitely?

From what I've read it's reversible for the most part but if your really screwed up you have to add calories back in very slowly or you will put on a ton of fat in the process.

[BalhamBeast]

I used to post on the same forums as Molly Galbraith from Girls Gone Strong. She power-lifts but also did some figure shows and ended up with Hashimoto's. Definitely get your thyroid checked out.

[acrawlingchaos]

So it is possible to screw up your metabolic rate indefinitely?

Not to my knowledge. The only thing a prolonged deficit would do is slow metabolic rate WHILE in a deficit.

Metabolic damage IMO is a manufactured condition that does not exist.




Yak... while I will assume you have. You measure and weight everything, correct? (I know some competitors do not).


If so... I would def talk to a Dr.

[HumblyMuscles]

I can't offer too much personal advice, except to say, studies and articles which I've linked to from these forums- ( including ones by Electricheadd and others ), seem to suggest that metabolic damage is real.

I'm a huge devourer of podcasts as well, including health and fitness ones from reputable sources, such as ABC Australia's Radio National with well known Doctors such as Dr Norman Swann. In some of the podcasts, they also offer evidence of this as well from Clinicians, nutritionists and even personal trainers.

I know some people are yet convinced, but metabolic rates differ so much between people- just look at the different body types- Ecto, Endo etc, that to me it makes scientific sense, that it could be altered, even if by a few hundred calories.

I wish you all the best, and seeing the Doc is always important in these matters! Cheers!

[cmoore]

If it was me, Intermediate fasting (of sorts) comes to my mind. I would gradually up calories mostly via protein intake (and those increases I would add during a separate protein only isolated meal (like mid fast). I'd also consider increasing short chain fatty acid (butter) and medium chain tryglycerides (coconut) intake during the primary meal to help the thyroid without requiring as many carbs. IDK.

Ice water and general exposure to cold weather seem to up my met too.

GL Yak

[yakabebe]

Thanx all...some novel ideas there...thanx

And yes..all things are measured to the gram.

BTW...my understanding of metabolic "damage" is in line with Layne's...its not really "damage" per se but more the adaptation process mother nature bestowed within to deal with the exigencies of the wild.

Once the conditions change the adaptive response abates...you may be left with the aftermath...ie more fat cells or anything else the body changed structurally.

But really IDK.

Goin to MD monyana and gonna have EVERYTHING checked...little bugger will probably wanna have a prostate cuddle too...oh well...due for one anyway.

Going to have a look at the fasting idea. Also going to look at a way of doing a very intense cardio ala hiit but more in an ab circuit. A mate rekons that this does for him what I have been looking for me...a sort of kick start to a higher BMR. If I can somehomw kick that along...right there would be the calorie burn needed.

The phetermine idea would be great if not for the ASADA WADA prohibition...sigh........

[ironwill2008]

... about 800-900 c/day ...........

^^^^ This floored me.

phentermine

Before considering ^^^^ this stuff, I urge you to look into it's possible side-effects.






I'm with all other posters, Bob; get thoroughly checked out by your doc.


GL.

[dungeonmistress]

I've been where you are for decades and am just now coming around to fixing myself or trying to anyway. I was full blown anorexic in my 20s and since that time had a bad relationship with food and over exercising.

For one, low carbs over time reduces ur thyroid function. Mine was low and I'm on synthroid for about 2 years now. Thinking its for nothing since I'm eating carbs now. When doing ultra low carbs over lengths of time ur body shuts down insulin and when u eat carbs u may get an weird reaction. That's what happened to me last year when I added carbs too quickly. Now I'm at near 200 grams a day which I've gotten to slowly over time by adding 5-10 grams per day per week.

I'm running a journal btw. Layne is a wealth of info as is Leigh peele.

You can fix this but it will take time. I might hang up comp until ur over this bump in the road. Keep in mind that the longer you've lived with damage the longer it will take to fix.

This is a very real phenomenon-we are just coming around to admitting that; years ago when I went to dr after dr wondering why I can't lose weight on 500 calories I was told I was a liar, or I was crazy, or that If 500 didn't work it would be ok to eat less. Not kidding.
Good luck yak!

[soccerdad5]

I would really think about putting the comp on hold for a while until you find out what is going on with your metabolism. The HIIT is just a band-aid also. Your body will eventually adapt to that. Get a full blood panel done and then see what the doc says. You have been competing for 8 years so you have been putting your body through a lot (especially if you are a natty). I would do a long reverse diet and when you get back to eating "normally" and not gaining BF then maybe consider competing again. I am sure competing is your identity and you love to do it. You need to ask yourself "why" you like to compete and find other activities to steer yourself into while your body "normalizes."

Also a lot of us got into looking better for our "health." If that has gotten out of line, maybe we need to re-evaluate our priorities. Keep us updated on how things are going.

[Electricheadd]

Not to my knowledge. The only thing a prolonged deficit would do is slow metabolic rate WHILE in a deficit.

Metabolic damage IMO is a manufactured condition that does not exist.




Yak... while I will assume you have. You measure and weight everything, correct? (I know some competitors do not).


If so... I would def talk to a Dr.

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Free-Mass.pdf

Conclusions: Despite relative preservation of FFM, exercise did not prevent dramatic slowing of
resting metabolism out of proportion to weight loss. This metabolic adaptation may persist during
weight maintenance and predispose to weight regain unless high levels of physical activity or
caloric restriction are maintained. (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 97: 0000 – 0000, 2012)

[ChickenPauk]

I feel like a lot of what he says describes me.....especially the "you are a fat storing machine" line ....

[litljay]

Some pretty good general information about thyroid function here (also some comments about iodine deficiency):

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_onl...EC-mcd01.hydra

Testing your body temperature: Get an oral "fever" thermometer. Do not test in your arm pit. Do not test soon after you have been talking, panting, drinking, eating, screwing, training etc. Check your temperature when you wake up, before you get out of bed. 97.3 F or lower is definitely a problem indicator. Ideal would be near 97.7 F and could be higher. We have guys who are below 97! I have added to this a check during the mid afternoon to see if you are getting to 98.6; if you can't get there, that is a problem indication.

[ArchAngel'73]

Yak I had similar problems my last show...stoopid low macros and not losing as much as I should.
Thought about my thyroid, metabolic damage etc.
When I did get tot the Dr. we found out I had low Test which is not out of the equation for you, get it checked brother.

[AAOBob]

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Free-Mass.pdf

Conclusions: Despite relative preservation of FFM, exercise did not prevent dramatic slowing of
resting metabolism out of proportion to weight loss. This metabolic adaptation may persist during
weight maintenance and predispose to weight regain unless high levels of physical activity or
caloric restriction are maintained. (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 97: 0000 – 0000, 2012)

Reading through that study, to start they were still -244 from the predicted RMR and at the end they were -516 from the predicted RMR. So basically there was -272 of "metabolic adaption" lower than predicted. While this may or may not have merit (very small sample size), its not the same as long term metabolic damage, which seems to be one of those things which people talk about but there is no real proof of. Lyane in his vlog even said as much, that he sees it but has no scientific explanation. Added these were obese individuals in the study you cited.

Now that doesn't mean it doesn't potentially exist, being simply there has been no real research on competitors who push their bodies to the limit time and time again. Most studies are almost always on obese, mostly sedentary, individuals.

[induced_drag]

.
The phetermine idea would be great if not for the ASADA WADA prohibition...sigh........

Looked through the list....not a lot of stuff you can use. Beta-2 agonists are out across the board. (those work very well). I did not see thyroid meds in the list, so if you are low, you should be OK to supplement. Bodybuilders will take excess thyroid hormone to increase fat burning....only problem is, it is VERY catabolic. Without supplementing other 'stuff' to shift your bodies protein synthesis, you would be crazy to over medicate your thyroid.

I think you have a tough decision to make. I know your contest is coming up... One idea that I had, is a CKD diet. Fat loss should be optimal by staining in ketosis, and you can help keep the thyroid bumped up with carb spikes. These diets are tough as they are restrictive, but I would imagine not any worse then eating 800-900 cal.

Good luck....good news is lots of people have experienced the same and recovered. Jdtemple did a lot of work to get his slowed metabolism back up to speed. I think he runs a journal.

[Electricheadd]

Reading through that study, to start they were still -244 from the predicted RMR and at the end they were -516 from the predicted RMR. So basically there was -272 of "metabolic adaption" lower than predicted. While this may or may not have merit (very small sample size), its not the same as long term metabolic damage, which seems to be one of those things which people talk about but there is no real proof of. Lyane in his vlog even said as much, that he sees it but has no scientific explanation. Added these were obese individuals in the study you cited.

Now that doesn't mean it doesn't potentially exist, being simply there has been no real research on competitors who push their bodies to the limit time and time again. Most studies are almost always on obese, mostly sedentary, individuals.

I agree that it's not a perfect study to apply to body builders but logically speaking if an obese person gets a 10-15% adaption a body builder pushing the limits of body fat is going to experience an even greater hormonal response. (They are leaner and tend to use even more drastic deficits) Have you read the latest study he spoke of in the last Vlog? It addresses the mechanisms effected by periods of under eating and the mechanisms for weight regain. It's fascinating the sheer number of adaptations that come from a food surplus/deficit.

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/conten....full.pdf+html

[Vytis]

After your last comp when you went from 800 to 2500 calories/day how gradual was this increase. If it was too fast it may have been one of the factors for your fat gai, along with dumping cardio too quickly as well. Typically after a comp you want to slowly reverse yourself out of the diet and cardio protocol you set for yourself - in your case, for example, adding in 100 calories/week and decreasing the cardio by 10min a session/week. This may have helped with the fat gain and allowed you to stay at a low BF level at a higher caloric level and lower activity rate.

Now that you're in cutting mode again, it looks like your body is only responding to your old training style - low calories and lots of cardio, probably because that's what is been accustomed to.

But as others have suggested, go see you Dr. first.....

All the best.

[acrawlingchaos]

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Free-Mass.pdf

Conclusions: Despite relative preservation of FFM, exercise did not prevent dramatic slowing of
resting metabolism out of proportion to weight loss. This metabolic adaptation may persist during
weight maintenance and predispose to weight regain unless high levels of physical activity or
caloric restriction are maintained. (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 97: 0000 – 0000, 2012)

After accounting for change in mass, the unaccounted TEE is in the amount of ~500 calories on a 2700 calories diet. This is the 10-20% of metabolic slowdown that is normally associated with restriction.

No where in this article/study does it show that your metabolism remains depressed for a significant amount of time once maintenance is re-established as insisted by Dr. Norton. In fact, this article does not contain ANY information post 30 wk that would prove his theory.

Lyle Mcdonald seems to be in agreement with me.

Lyle McDonald C'mon, Dr Layne Norton PHD. Post one human study to support metabolic damage, showing a TEE that low in a post-dieted human male. It should be easy with your research background. One human study. Or show me one that true tissue weight gain can occur with the kind of SELF-REPORTED caloric intake that is being claimed. ONE HUMAN STUDY, boy

Lyle McDonald And you see, Layne. Science, what you claim to believe in, is not about OPINION. It's about research supported facts.

Which you have literally none of. Two ****ty papers, case studies of self reported caloric intake. I've got 40 years of metabolic studies that say you're wrong.

And you think this is about an OPINION. Or keep trying to make this about me personally.

So stop trying to weasel out of this. YOUR bull**** claims, based on nothing but self-reported 'emails you got lots of'. A PhD? ****ing please.

that's Piled Higher and Deeper you dumb sack of ****.

https://www.********.com/chrislavado...00569877841003

Anyhow.... good read.... mostly a lot of sh*t talking and slander (700 comments worth) and still, there is no science to support the notion of metabolic damage.