PLEASE NOTE
If you're going to ask questions regarding pain or posture, please read through this entire post first...
Remember: PAIN IS NOT ALWAYS ASSOCIATED BIOMECHANICAL DYSFUNCTION.These is no such thing as perfect posture. Posture is HIGHLY context dependent - for example, the world's fastest men typically walk around in APT all day with no pain and movement competency for sprinting. See here: Current Position Statement on Anterior Pelvic Tilt
Correcting their posture towards more of the "perfect symmetrical" example listed by most functional gurus (Naudi Agular for example) would be the biggest mistake of any S&C coach's career as their biomechanical compensations are their body's way of adapting to produce the highest power output possible.
Also, APT isn't caused by excess sitting, he needs to check his facts on that one and stop assuming that anytime you maintain a specific position you will get structural adaptation (outside of perhaps extended time in a cast or splint in which case it IS possible for contractures to occur): Does Excessive Sitting Shorten the Hip Flexors?
Posture is a phenomenon which can be maintain with proper balanced training and an educated approach to movement within your warmup (i.e. target the asymmetries which are specific to YOU). Not everyone will need thoracic spine extension work. Not everyone has inactive glutes. Not everyone has shortened hip flexors.
Kelly Starett hyped up the idea of "your posture is dysfunctional so that's why you're in pain" which just simply isn't correct or supported by the current research on pain science.
If you're going to follow anyone in the PT world, stick to guys like Bill Hartman, Quinn Henoch, Seth Oberst, Aaron Swanson, etc.
PAIN =/= DAMAGE. (All the time that is - in the case of acute injuries, yes. But chronic pain doesn't always correlate with tissue damage.)Here's my word of caution regarding PTs...You must be very careful which ones you choose and why. Most PTs are looking for aberrant patterns and things that are wrong with a person. Most of the individuals coming to them already have something very wrong with them and as such, they're in pain. You're young, healthy, and in great shape. Sure, there are a few things that aren't quite "right" but that can be fixed over time as you get stronger. However, PTs like to find things that are wrong and tell you about them and as such, this can generate what is known as the "nocebo effect" within a person's psyche.
Basically, it's the opposite of placebo. When someone tells you that there is something wrong with you then you become HYPER-aware of it and as such, it may cause pain when there wasn't any to begin with.
For example, if you look at the research on asymptomatic individuals and MRI imaging, there are hundreds of thousands of individuals that are walking about pain free with labral tears, disc bulges, and SLAP lesions in their shoulder (I would include myself in this group - I'm about 90% sure I have a torn right labrum in my shoulder from playing baseball when I was younger but having done substantial mobility/soft tissue/corrective work on myself, I've never had pain). However, none of these individuals report with pain or any incredibly obscure movement patterns. Yet, they might have gotten a recommendation from a physician or a friend to "get their back/neck/shoulder/hip checked out" just in case there might something wrong or they felt a slight "weird sensation". As such, when they see the damage on the MRI they begin to develop debilitating pain over the next few weeks/months.
Why?
Well, pain science is a very multi faceted issue and as such, it's not just as simple as the mechanical model would suggest - dysfunction creates mechanistic problems within the muscle/joint/tendon/etc. and then you get an inflammation response and pain. No, not the case. That is PART of the issue but not the whole thing.
See here for more information on the subject, all good reads:
- Pain Science: An Interview With Pain Expert Jason Silvernail]
- March Research Round-Up: Pain Science Edition
- A Revolution in the Understanding of Pain and Treatment of Chronic Pain
Point being: strength coaches, physical therapists, soft tissue specialists, etc. must all be VERY careful with their choice of words and recommendations to patients as this could cause further issues if they aren't aware of the person's psychological approach to the situation and how their words are being perceived.
I wouldn't recommend against a PT visit, but I would go with SPECIFIC questions - i.e. "I feel like I can't seem to get into my left hip" (S/O to Davis is you got the PRI reference), "My right shoulder sits lower than my left", "My left pec is bigger than my right", etc.
Also, I would find a PT who believes in STRENGTH work to correct the issue. Sure, mobility and activation correctives can be beneficial but at the end of the day, the goal is get you AS CLOSE TO NEUTRAL AS POSSIBLE (you will never be perfectly neutral which is why strength coaches, chiropractors, and PTs exist to help slowly bring you back to the spectrum of neutrality) and then allow to strength train to cement that new pattern.
Bottom line: Do your OWN research and go in with a potential hypothesis for what might be causing the issue or a basic understanding of the situation.
Doctors love (or really anyone for that matter) to feel like they have the upper hand when it comes to knowledge so if they feel like you don't know what's going on or you don't have a grasp on the situation then they're going to talk down to you and you'll have to deal with this inferiority complex that is generated between the two of you. Level the play field and go in there with some knowledge in your head or on paper.
At the end of the day, keep this in mind: STRENGTH IS CORRECTIVE IN NATURE.
Have an asymmetry on one side compared to the other? Cool, literally everyone does. There isn't a single perfectly symmetrical person in this world. People appear symmetrical until you load them beyond a submaximal capacity and then you will being to see the asymmetries.
However, doing more unilateral work (upper or lower) can be incredibly beneficial. Obviously these have to be PROGRESSED appropriately. Doing walking lunges on day 1 isn't going to fix a hip shift in a squat. haha
So, to recap on that novel:
1. Do your own research > leading to my next point...
2. Go in with some questions or a basic understanding/hypothesis of what might be going on.
3. Don't read into his wording/suggestions too much - if he starts about you being "broken" or telling you that you need to stop squatting or benching until you fix these issues, MOVE ALONG AND FIND ANOTHER PT or lets hop on a Skype session and we can talk through a variety of things.
4. Remember, that at the end of the day you're doing the best thing possible to correct unilateral deficits - STRENGTH TRAINING. A properly periodized program that is built around your personal needs and preferences will help to correct these if pregressions/progressions (i.e. lateralizations) are built into it.
^That is the first step to understanding and overcoming injuries. There is a psycho****tic component to pain and we must be careful not to drive a positive feedback cycle (pain leads to thoughts of "uhoh, something is wrong, I must have damaged/broke/sprain/tore/etc. something") when that simply isn't always the case.
Pain is your body's way of saying "Hey pay attention! Something isn't right." Investigate and don't always rely on someone else to have all the answers. At the end of the day, you are the one who knows your body best b/c you live in it.
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01-14-2017, 06:23 PM #241
PLEASE NOTE
If you're going to ask questions regarding pain or posture, please read through this entire post first...
Remember: PAIN IS NOT ALWAYS ASSOCIATED BIOMECHANICAL DYSFUNCTION.
PAIN =/= DAMAGE. (All the time that is - in the case of acute injuries, yes. But chronic pain doesn't always correlate with tissue damage.)
^That is the first step to understanding and overcoming injuries. There is a psycho****tic component to pain and we must be careful not to drive a positive feedback cycle (pain leads to thoughts of "uhoh, something is wrong, I must have damaged/broke/sprain/tore/etc. something") when that simply isn't always the case.
Pain is your body's way of saying "Hey pay attention! Something isn't right." Investigate and don't always rely on someone else to have all the answers. At the end of the day, you are the one who knows your body best b/c you live in it.B.S. Exercise Science
M.S. Applied Sport Science and Exercise Physiology
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01-16-2017, 12:48 AM #242
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01-16-2017, 01:00 AM #243
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01-21-2017, 12:24 AM #244
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01-21-2017, 08:04 AM #245
Hip Flexor/groin
Hello,
I know this is like the third time ive posted on this thread but i cant find answers anywhere else.
For a while now i really cant remember when it started. My inner hip/groin area makes a pressure relieving/movement restricting crack (on both sides of the hip) either in the morning or when I do my first couple of bodyweight squats for the day. Some times I can crack it by leaning into one of my legs while sitting down. It is slightly painful sometimes, but most of the time there is no pain. I've read online this can be a hip impingement and lead to a labrum tear in the hip.
I think it was caused by me gaining about 90lb in 2 years and my bio-mechanics changing, I even sit and squat wider now with the same depth ( ass to grass basically). I do hip and lower body stretches on my leg days. I know this might be a question for a PT but as of right now I cant afford one, and have a bunch of other problems to fix too (right knee, left ankle, upperback/neck posture).
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01-21-2017, 09:23 AM #246
Not the best choice and certainly not one that will produce functional integration to rebuild an asymmetrical bilateral pattern (e.g. squat).
I posted this single leg progression above which will be most helpful in this case:
Lunge Progression
Step Up
Split Squat > Front foot elevated
Reverse Lunge > Front foot elevated
Single Leg Squat to Bench
Lateral Lunge
Bulgarian/Rear Foot Elevated Split Squat (RFESS)
Single Leg Squat From Bench
Walking Lunge
Forward Lunge
Single Leg Skater Squat
Pistol Squat
Those issues which you have highlighted in the second half of the post are likely part of the problem as well. No joint functions in isolation.B.S. Exercise Science
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01-21-2017, 11:35 AM #247
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01-21-2017, 06:52 PM #248
When you say lean into your legs, are you talking about having the leg internally rotated and leaning away? In flexion and leaning away? Expound upon that...
Those issues which you have highlighted in the second half of the post are likely part of the problem as well. No joint functions in isolation.
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01-22-2017, 01:36 PM #249
Your main goal is hypertrophy related, yes? Well, what generates more hypertrophy, a single leg leg press or a back squat?
Could be a variety of things. As you've said, you can now squat wider and you've gained weight so perhaps your hip structure has changed as you've gotten older. Could also be that you're missing internal rotation. Try out a few of the drills here:
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01-24-2017, 09:12 AM #250
Yeah...wasn't really too worried with the exercise selection for my core. What are your thoughts on the exercise selection of the program all together?
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01-24-2017, 03:46 PM #251
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Theres research suggesting that the work that can be done in single leg exercises can exceed that of double leg due to large vasodilation. In fact they have done VO2 max tests comparing single leg and double leg exercises confirming this conclusion that more oxygen and blood flow available to one leg exceeds that of two legs.
While mike is right, pistol squats are great because of the motor pattern and if your goal is to squat proficiently again, you should definitely incorporate this exercise in your routine. However, single leg leg press can certainly be used for hypertrophy.Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (NSCA)
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01-24-2017, 03:51 PM #252
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Ask Jim wendler this question and he will tell you "dont major in the minors". Focus on your main competition lifts and throw in some assistance lifts that help with those main lifts. Assistance lifts should be like supplements. They should aim to help target weak areas and not take over the work done by the main movers of the competition lifts.
Ie: dont kill yourself doing front squats if its going to sacrifice the work you can do on the back squat (powerlifting).Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (NSCA)
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01-24-2017, 04:19 PM #253
I'm not sure how pistol squats became the emphasis, that was literally the last exercise in the progression. If he's dealing with an injury and we're referring to a rehab protocol then pistol squats are literally the absolute last thing I would recommend. Somehow that got lost in transition. haha
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01-25-2017, 07:50 AM #254
My goals are not to get back into bb squatting, mine are just to grow my legs as big as possible and the reason why I am doing single leg instead of regular leg press is because of my right leg is much weaker and my right ankle mobility is much more worse than my left leg
So according to this you said here, single leg leg press would be a better option than regular two leg leg press for hypertrophy am I right?Last edited by Bonnappe; 01-25-2017 at 07:56 AM.
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01-25-2017, 10:23 AM #255
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I think it would be in your best interest to get back to squatting if you want to grow a big set of wheels, everybody wanna be a body builder, aint no body wanna lift heavy ass weight.
The study compared single to double leg press, im not advocating that single leg press is better than a heavy ass squat, however use it as a tool in your exercise bag. Especially as you work on your ankle flexibility and proportional differences.Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (NSCA)
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01-25-2017, 10:35 AM #256
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01-25-2017, 10:59 AM #257
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best glute exercises in your opinion, ones that preferrably are less lower back intensive?
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01-25-2017, 11:06 AM #258
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01-25-2017, 08:08 PM #259
If you want your legs as big as possible, that's going to come from bilateral squat patterns. Does it have to be low or high bar back squats? No.
Belt squats, front squats, pit shark squats, safety squat bar, etc.
Keep doing single leg work and double up the volume on the weak side.
If hypertrophy is the goal, a pistol is not the best idea in my opinion. It's merely included in the progression as others have that as their end goal (i.e. many who do crossfit). For the average gym goer or the meat head who just wants to get jacked out of his mind, I would never suggest they even bother spending time working towards that.
Barbell glute bridges. Work your way up to hip thrusts, most start them too preemptively and as such can't control the eccentric portion defaulting into extension. Now you're increasing the load upont he spinal erectors and defeated the choice of the exercise in the first place. Start here and work your way up:
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01-25-2017, 10:58 PM #260
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good looks on the glute bridges. I tried hip thrusters and IDK they felt really difficult for me, or it was just a very foreign movement for me. I was trying to find an exercise that would really activate the glutes for me (I believe I do have a very hard time activating my glutes on exercises like squats/deadlifts so I would be better served with a more isolated movement). Glute bridges seem to do the trick very well. I put 10 lb bumper plates (just for height purposes) on each side so I am starting very light and working my way up. Thanks Mike and y0lked
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01-26-2017, 11:33 AM #261
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01-27-2017, 08:52 AM #262
y0lked and many of you guys clearly know your ****. Do any of you guys watch athleanx? He talks a lot about the science behind exercising. Is what he is saying correct or is a load of bs?
Answer this question simply based on his science not hate for him from trying to sell his programs and supplements I couldn't care less about that.
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01-27-2017, 10:57 AM #263
Not sure if already posted.
If I switch my training and only emphasise the eccentric portion on every lift, will I get more gains?
(Assuming I increase the weight to accomadate this)
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01-27-2017, 11:44 AM #264
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Going too heavy on bench press which causes form breakdown and inhibts progress. Also I see alot of guys trying to do very very technical isolation exercises and not getting anywhere when they should be spending their time getting volume in more compound exercises.
ie: single hand tricep cable extensions instead of CGBP or Skull Crushers or DB extensions
also Leg Extensions when they should be squatting more volume.
Advanced lifters are advanced because they have been doing the right things for a long time. If you are referring to advanced as simply someone whos been lifting for a long time, not necessarily advanced because of their lifts or physique, then I would say the biggest problem is that they get stuck in a rut. They have gotten comfortable with a routine and a couple exercises and they never break out of that mold. They dont know how prioritization works and therefore arent getting any benefits of overreaching and deloading. They think that lifting 225 for 5 reps on bench every monday will make them bigger.
great question, why do you ask?Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (NSCA)
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01-27-2017, 11:54 AM #265
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Jeff knows his stuff as well and hes great with kinesiology stuff, his knowledge of how the body and muscles work is spot on from my perspective. As for his entire workouts, he tends to preach slow isolation type exercises that just wont load the body enough to get a great stimulus. Yeah they may sound catchy but take his advice in bits of pieces. Maybe add in a few things here and there for fun, but I wouldnt base an entire training program on isolation exercises.
Youre talking about ONLY doing negatives? Never seen a study looking at only negatives but if you never get that concentric contraction thats like backwords thinking. Now, if you mean only focusing on going slow in the eccentric and then just exploding up on concentric as fast as you can, that is a wonderfull lifting technique. We know that power comes from type IIx fibers and by creating a fast concentric contraction you will target those fibers. Also, focusing on the eccentric will force you to stretch the target muscles of the lift and thus forcing you to use the proper muscles during the concentric. The broscience term here is "mind muscle connection", and to be honest ive never heard that term used in exercise science.Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (NSCA)
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01-27-2017, 12:19 PM #266
I should have stated I meant slow eccentric and then explosive concentric, but adding the occasional eccentric only to get use to a new weight (aka heavy negative bench presses in prep for a PR).
Sweet, thanks for the knowledge and time it took to type that. Also very quick reply time; would rep if I could.Last edited by Fapadrol; 01-27-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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01-27-2017, 12:28 PM #267
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01-27-2017, 07:47 PM #268
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01-28-2017, 08:05 AM #269
This is entirely context dependent. Everything related to physiology, lifting, and biomechanics is - depends on the individual, their goals, exercise selection, programming, etc.
I hope this question was truly rooted in a quest for knowledge and not just a feeble attempt to promote the brand you've built...
I was asked about Jeff in my personal thread a while back. See my response below (SPOILER: It depends. Some are good...others?...eh.)
There is some research showing that emphasizing more of the eccentric component WITH NORMAL LOADS (not supramaximal) will promote greater bouts of hypertrophy.
However, keep in mind that there is other research showing that eccentric based work can promote greater amounts of micro tears at the sarcomere level and thus you will have higher levels of subjective soreness along with longer bouts of recovery time needed. Not to mention, given the disruption at a cellular level, there is more evidence that you may acutely alter insulin sensitivity with the fiber itself due to the inflammatory cascade that is heightened when training in such a manner (link to studies in additional post below).
Agreed, at supramaximal loads, it should be used sparingly as you noted. However, if he was referring to daily use of the concept in regards to maximizing the hypertrophic component of training, I'd say he'd be fine to focus on a 2-3 second eccentric and really work on controlling the weight.
Could be due to how you're training them (POSITION AFFECTS ACTIVATION - arch your back while standing up and try to squeeze your glutes...bingo.
Here's a few questions to consider regarding your shoulder training:
1. Are you doing things seated or standing?
2. How much shoulder flexion do you have?
3. Do you have adequate thoracic extension? Perhaps you have too much?
4. What is your anterior core control like? Can you prevent the ribcage from anteriorly tilting while going overhead?
Could be due to the tempo used while training (more on this in my previous points above regarding the eccentric component).
Could be that they have adapted exceptionally well to previous blocks of training that required large amounts of grip and/or shoulder work.
Could be that you're not providing a large enough stimulus for growth (aka the typical 3x5 found in most training programs in the online sector).
There are alot of factors to consider but also remember that SORENESS IS NOT INDICATIVE OF GROWTH. I touched on the top of hypertrophy in more depth in this article (Train Like An Athlete, Look Like A Bodybuilder, I'll link below if you just want the important bits:
Originally Posted by MikeWinesLast edited by MikeWines; 01-28-2017 at 08:12 AM.
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01-28-2017, 08:08 AM #270
Links in regards to previous post above:
Recovery of the human biceps electromyogram after heavy eccentric, concentric or isometric exercise.
Five men performed submaximal isometric, concentric or eccentric contractions until exhaustion with the left arm elbow flexors at respectively 50%, 40% and 40% of the prefatigued maximal voluntary contraction force (MVC). Subsequently, and at regular intervals, the surface electromyogram (EMG) during 30-s isometric test contractions at 40% of the prefatigued MVC and the muscle performance parameters (MVC and the endurance time of an isometric endurance test at 40% prefatigued MVC) were recorded. Large differences in the surface EMG response were found after isometric or concentric exercise on the one hand and eccentric exercise on the other. Eccentric exercise evoked in two of the three EMG parameters [the EMG amplitude (root mean square) and the rate of shift of the EMG mean power frequency (MPF)] the greatest (P less than 0.001) and longest lasting (up to 7 days) response. The EMG response after isometric or concentric exercise was smaller and of shorter duration (1-2 days). The third EMG parameter, the initial MPF, had already returned to its prefatigued value at the time of the first measurement, 0.75 h after exercise. The responses of EMG amplitude and of rate of MPF shift were similar to the responses observed in the muscle performance parameters (MVC and the endurance time). Complaints of muscle soreness were most frequent and severe after the eccentric contractions. Thus, eccentric exercise evoked the greatest and longest lasting response both in the surface EMG signal and in the muscle performance parameters.
In conclusion, we have shown that 2 days after one-legged eccentric exercise, maximal insulin-mediated glucose uptake in muscle and on a whole-body basis is impaired. The local effect cannot account for the effect on the whole-body basis, suggesting the release of a factor which induces systemic insulin resistance. Decreased insulin action was accompanied by decreased GLUT4 protein and glycogen concentration as well as decreased glycogen synthase activation at the first clamp step in muscle subjected to prior eccentric exercise. The lack of decrease in glucose uptake at submaximal insulin concentrations makes muscle insulin-resistant glucose transport a mechanism that alone can hardly explain the sustained decrease in muscle glycogen after eccentric exercise. Rather, decreased activation of glycogen synthase or increased glycogenolysis may be of importance. The latter assumption is supported by the higher lactate release in the eccentric thigh than in the control thigh at the two first clamp steps.
Eccentric and concentric force and median frequency of the EMG power spectrum were measured during and immediately after maximal eccentric (EE) and concentric (CE) exercise and during the recovery period of 1 week. Eight male subjects performed EE and CE consisting of 100 maximal eccentric and concentric actions with elbow flexors during two separate exercise sessions. When comparing maximal eccentric and concentric actions before the exercises, the average force was higher (P<0.001) in eccentric than in concentric but the average rectified EMG (aEMG) values were the same with the two types of action. The average eccentric force decreased 53.3% after EE and 30.6% after CE, while the average concentric force decreased 49.9% after CE and 38.4% after EE. The recovery was slower after EE. The median frequency (MF) of biceps brachii (BB) in eccentric action decreased during both EE (P<0.01) and CE (P<0.05). It recovered within 2 days of the exercises but was lower again (P<0.01) 7 days after EE. In concentric action MF of BB decreased during CE (P<0.01), while no changes were observed in EE. Blood lactate concentration increased (P<0.001) in both exercises and serum creatine kinase (CK) activity increased in EE only, being significantly higher (P<0.001) 7 days after than before the eccentric exercise. In the absolute scale, the eccentric force in EE decreased more than the concentric force in CE (P<0.01). Fatigue response was action type specific as seen in the greater reduction in the force of the exercise type. MF decreased immediately after both exercises, which may be at least partly related to elevated blood lactate concentration. Eccentric actions led to possible muscle damage as indicated by elevated serum CK and muscle soreness, and therefore to longer recovery as compared to concentric actions. Decreased MF after EE may be indicative of selective damage of the fast twitch fibers in this type of exercise.
This study examined acute and long-lasting effects of fatigue and muscle damage on fast and accurate elbow flexion and extension target movements (TM) with eight male students. An isokinetic machine was used to perform 100 maximal eccentric and concentric elbow flexions at 4-week intervals. Movement range was 40-170 degrees in eccentric exercise (ECCE) and 170-40 degrees in concentric exercise (CONE), with an angular velocity of 2 rad s(-1). TM was performed in sitting position with the right forearm fixed to lever arm above protractor. Subjects performed TM in horizontal plane (amplitude 60 degrees ) by visual feedback of movement from a television monitor. Surface EMG was recorded from the biceps brachii and triceps brachii muscles. TM measurements and serum creatine kinase (CK) determinations were conducted before, after, 0.5 h, 2 days, and 7 days after both exercises. Blood lactate was taken before, after, and 0.5 h after the exercises. Both ECCE and CONE led to a large decline in maximal voluntary contractions, but the recovery was slower after ECCE when it remained incomplete even until day 7 post-exercise. Lactate increased (P < 0.001) similarly after both exercises. Delayed-onset muscle soreness peaked on day 2 and CK peaked on day 7 after ECCE. Exhaustive eccentric exercise of agonistic muscles impaired the flexion TM performance, and had a long-duration modulation effect on the triphasic EMG activity pattern of flexion and extension TM. In the acute phase, the observed changes in performance and in the EMG patterns are suggested to be related to metabolic changes via III and IV muscle afferents. The delayed recovery, on the other hand, may be related to problems in the proprioceptive feedback caused by muscle damage.B.S. Exercise Science
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