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01-19-2016, 09:48 AM #91
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01-19-2016, 09:49 AM #92
Third trimester abortions involve pulling the baby out enough so that most of the body is out, but the head still remains inside the woman. You then kill the baby using scissors. The fact that the head is still inside the woman makes it legal. If the baby's head came out, then it becomes murder. Doesn't get more arbitrary than that.
Deuteronomy 28:35
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01-19-2016, 09:50 AM #93
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01-19-2016, 09:51 AM #94
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01-19-2016, 09:52 AM #95
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01-19-2016, 09:53 AM #96
Baby born at 21 weeks and 6 days....
as of 2013, was doing fine and in Kindergarten.
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/healt...349/story.htmlDeuteronomy 28:35
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01-19-2016, 09:54 AM #97
P1) Only homo sapiens with self-awareness are persons
P2) It is okay to kill homo sapiens that are not persons
P3) Fetuses lack self awareness
P4) Fetuses are not persons (from P1 and P3)
P5)It is okay to kill fetuses because they are not persons (from P2 and P4)
Carrying that further:
P6) Infants are not self-aware
P7) Infants are not persons (from P1)
Conclusion: It is okay to kill infants (from P2 and P7)
So you have to come up with some distinguishing trait other than self-awareness for personhood, right?
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01-19-2016, 09:56 AM #98
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01-19-2016, 09:57 AM #99
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01-19-2016, 09:58 AM #100
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01-19-2016, 09:58 AM #101
One pro-choicer here has argued that the distinguishing trait (in his mind) is some undefined level of brain activity: more than mere impulses but less than full sentience or self-awareness (true self-awareness only coming at some point within the first two years of birth)
What's your proposed distinguishing trait?
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01-19-2016, 09:58 AM #102
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01-19-2016, 09:59 AM #103
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01-19-2016, 10:02 AM #104
You have your own reality
Dogs have their own reality
Cats have their own reality
Down syndrome have their own reality
Just because something doesn't fit definition of perfect society puppet doesn't mean they don't have right to live and experience it with their reality (whatever it may b)“And once you are awake, you shall remain awake eternally. ” - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-19-2016, 10:02 AM #105
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01-19-2016, 10:03 AM #106
Well the time that the baby starts responding to stimulus is a sign that it is developing into a person. But thankfully that is way after the test for downs, so there is no issue there in my eyes. The thing is a baby with downs isn't just going to have a tough life, but the whole family are going to struggle. You have a downs syndrome child and you have a child forever that will never grow up. When you're old, rather than knowing your child will be happy and living an independent life, you'll be worried that your adult sized baby wont be able to take care of themselves. How are you going to be allowed to die? I feel for people that have downs syndrome kids, we made the choice before we had ours that we'd abort if the child had it. It wasn't a nice thing to discuss, but before we even created the baby we made that decision. Thankfully that didn't happen.
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life." - Cecil Rhodes
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01-19-2016, 10:05 AM #107
The fetus is not considered a "part of the woman's reproductive tract". Insofar as the fetus lacks consciousness, the woman has full autonomy over its fate. Once it develops consciousness, it develops rights of its own, in that it is a person, an entity unto itself. Therefore, late term abortions (past some point in the 2nd trimester I guess) are analogous to killing the baby out of the womb
There is no non-arbitrary distinction between a 6, 7, 8, or 9 month fetus in the womb and an infant right out of the womb. The least arbitrary standard is intrinsic to the fetus - that is, whether it has developed consciousness or not
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01-19-2016, 10:06 AM #108
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01-19-2016, 10:07 AM #109
So your distinguishing feature is response to stimulus?
So if a comatose adult does not respond to stimulus, is he not a person?
Or is he a person for the period that he is in a coma because he - at one earlier point - DID respond to stimulus?
If that's the case, you've got two different threshold tests:
1) Once responded to stimulus
2) Now responds to stimulus
This seems a bit convoluted and there doesn't seem to be a clear reason as to why someone who USED TO (and may in the future) respond to stimulus magically qualifies as a person; it seems out of step with the Test (2), which doesn't permit much leeway.
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01-19-2016, 10:09 AM #110
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01-19-2016, 10:10 AM #111
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01-19-2016, 10:11 AM #112
While I appreciate your detailed approach here (srs), I think the "consciousness" threshold is still hazy.
Is it
1) simple subjective awareness - experiential capacity; the ability to feel/notice/perceive qualia?; or,
2) self-awareness?
(2) doesn't come until after the child's first birthday outside the womb. Some philosophers and medical ethicists believe that the distinguishing feature of personhood (what separates the human person from cats, dogs, etc., all of whom have simple awareness) is self-awareness. As a result, they believe that there's nothing more morally wrong with killing an infant (who lacks self-awareness) and a cat (who also lacks self-awareness).
Why are these thinkers wrong?
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01-19-2016, 10:11 AM #113
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01-19-2016, 10:13 AM #114
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01-19-2016, 10:13 AM #115
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01-19-2016, 10:14 AM #116
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01-19-2016, 10:15 AM #117
Fetus are not people... they are fuking zygote that combined together. They are cells. Like you skin cells that die everyday and you don't shed a tear. Better to abort a pregnancy than have a parent give a baby a chitty childhood/life. Most people aren't pro life, they are pro pregnancy and don't give a fuk about the kid when it's born. The same people that bitch about criminals and lazy people being a burden to society. Crime went down 19 years after abortion became legal in the 70's.
Cliffs- it's not bad to abort down syndrome if you know you will be bad for the child and it will have a chitty life and is better off not being born (not dead it was never alive!!)
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01-19-2016, 10:19 AM #118
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01-19-2016, 10:20 AM #119
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01-19-2016, 10:23 AM #120
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