Why Kai Lost: Don't shoot the messenger

[MillerTime07]

I understand Phil over Kai this year, but based on their statements, bodybuilding is pre-determined before the competitors take the stage. I wonder why some guys even both competing.

[SammyJr]

All of these sound legit. What about these points do you disagree with? Also, I'm not asking what you wish to counter about Phil, but regarding the statements themselves, what do you disagree with?

You seem to disagree with many things from the interview. Yet, how are these clearly wrong? It seems like the judges acknowledge that 2012 Kai(98%) would have won, but that Kai was off. I agree with both of those, personally. I could point to the "traps" comment, but that's the only one that confuses me. I may disagree with others, but I can chalk that up to the subjective nature of the sport.

Also, you dismiss the "it's different being there in person" perspective, why? It is different (having been there myself multiple times, from multiple angles). I can say that my personal opinion of Vic went up tremendously after seeing him in person. I think some bb'ers look better in person and better in photos. Vic has a quality to his physique that doesn't come through in vid's or pics. Ronnie is another example, and partially what makes him such a freak, in that while he was always amazing in pics, Ronnie was really a person who looked better live. This was so true that Ronnie still had the best arms in the game for several years after he retired. Instead of railing against this point (it's "typical"), why not try and understand the perspective? Otherwise, why do we judge the O live, and why don't we just have judges in a secluded booth looking at video and stills?

I get the feeling that you're too busy having the argument in your head to listen to where the judges are coming from.


Personally, I thought the pre-judging lights ruined Friday night. I'm not sure what it was, but the stream looked dark and horrid. Everyone looked out of shape. I had Wolf winning, and I'm not even one on Team Wolf. I also think Kai looked better than Phil Friday, but I also realize I wasn't there. I'm not one to deny politics as a potential factor, but I'm also not one to deny evidence beyond my own perspective. Lastly, if judges have been screaming at Kai to come in fully dialed in, why doesn't he simply go 100% that route? As a spectator, I constantly wonder why Kai does that. 2012 Kai, IMO, would have the title right now, no question.

You say you agree with the judges saying "we've never seen kai in shape" but then you say in 2012 he was in shape ?

[Larfleeze]

Pair of f*cking retards.

[WizardsOfAus]

Jesus, over half these quotes are basically the exact opposite of what happening on stage

This. When I heard that "his traps outsize him" I literally thought wtf, was that judge trying to be sarcastic or..?

[Ikatsu]

it seems the ifbb is really just an elaborate troll

[WizardsOfAus]

Lastly, if judges have been screaming at Kai to come in fully dialed in, why doesn't he simply go 100% that route? As a spectator, I constantly wonder why Kai does that.

Because he did exactly that in 2012, and Phil still beat him. The reason Phil beat him in 2012 was because he was much fuller and rounder than Kai at the finals (he wasn't better conditioned than Kai). So the following year (2013), Kai uses the opposite strategy by trying to outmass Phil. Kai is the thickest bodybuilder on the stage that year - much fuller and rounder than the previous year, but lacked the crisp conditioning. Phil wins again. So at this point, Kai has out-conditioned Phil (2012), and clearly out-sized him (2013), yet neither strategy has brought him victory. So what is Kai to do?

The physique Kai brought to the 2014 Olympia was, in terms of size, somewhere between his 2012 showing and his 2013 showing. Likewise for conditioning - he was better conditioned than 2013, but not as crisp as 2012. Kai's 2014 Olympia showing was a blend of his Olympia physiques from the previous two years; he hadn't the stellar conditioning from 2012, nor the colossal size of 2013, but this was a more balanced physique that brought something from the best of both worlds. On top of this, Kai made notable improvements to his weak point, his traps, yet the judges penalize him for this by claiming that his traps outsize him? SMH.

[RoroCwalker]

All of these sound legit. What about these points do you disagree with? Also, I'm not asking what you wish to counter about Phil, but regarding the statements themselves, what do you disagree with?

You seem to disagree with many things from the interview. Yet, how are these clearly wrong? It seems like the judges acknowledge that 2012 Kai(98%) would have won, but that Kai was off. I agree with both of those, personally. I could point to the "traps" comment, but that's the only one that confuses me. I may disagree with others, but I can chalk that up to the subjective nature of the sport.

Pinpoint me the points you find odd that I disagree with.

Also, you dismiss the "it's different being there in person" perspective, why? It is different (having been there myself multiple times, from multiple angles). I can say that my personal opinion of Vic went up tremendously after seeing him in person. I think some bb'ers look better in person and better in photos. Vic has a quality to his physique that doesn't come through in vid's or pics. Ronnie is another example, and partially what makes him such a freak, in that while he was always amazing in pics, Ronnie was really a person who looked better live. This was so true that Ronnie still had the best arms in the game for several years after he retired. Instead of railing against this point (it's "typical"), why not try and understand the perspective? Otherwise, why do we judge the O live, and why don't we just have judges in a secluded booth looking at video and stills?

I get the feeling that you're too busy having the argument in your head to listen to where the judges are coming from.

Note that the judges, in that interview, were also passing comments and opinions based on pictures.

Pictures offer a close up, a straight angle and a static moment of the pose.

Pictures offer the same "filter" for everyone.

Also, what do you think about that?

Personally, I thought the pre-judging lights ruined Friday night. I'm not sure what it was, but the stream looked dark and horrid. Everyone looked out of shape. I had Wolf winning, and I'm not even one on Team Wolf. I also think Kai looked better than Phil Friday, but I also realize I wasn't there. I'm not one to deny politics as a potential factor, but I'm also not one to deny evidence beyond my own perspective. Lastly, if judges have been screaming at Kai to come in fully dialed in, why doesn't he simply go 100% that route? As a spectator, I constantly wonder why Kai does that. 2012 Kai, IMO, would have the title right now, no question.

I don't think he would.

[lethalandcruel]

Lmao, who has a say in who judges the olympia, can't they just replace the judges?

[chenko]

in b4 stealthswimmer gagging on judging c#ck


100% proves these guys are complete and utter morons
its too ridiculous to even laugh at the suggestion phil wins FDB

joke of a "competition"

[endurancell]

This is why nobody takes bodybuilding seriously. These judges are incredibly delusional and probably mentally ill. Where the **** do they find these people?


Literally everything they say is the opposite of reality

[Ragana]

Lee Thompson, the head judge, also happens to be Phil's business partner.

Please list any other sport where that **** would fly...

[TropicalSunset]

Everything else...as RIDICULOUS as it is, you can argue it being true.

But them saying Kai was in better shape in 2013 shows they have NO IDEA what they are talking about. It is quantifiable, testable, obvious, objectively verifiable.

If they cannot even see that, there is no point. Like it was said...Kai will NEVER win until the judges are replaced.

[Kiwi_]

I understand Phil over Kai this year, but based on their statements, bodybuilding is pre-determined before the competitors take the stage. I wonder why some guys even both competing.

[MrMetabolism]

Lee Thompson, the head judge, also happens to be Phil's business partner.

Please list any other sport where that **** would fly...

This. Lee is a sorry sack of ****. Phil will win till one of the guys Lee rolled on gets out of prison and kills him.

[PeterStark]

[chenko]

This. Lee is a sorry sack of ****. Phil will win till one of the guys Lee rolled on gets out of prison and kills him.

not such a sceptic anymore?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post348470221



IFBB ....makes FIFA look like cleanskins

[unique1]

this......

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=164230791

[MG5]

Another story that I'm sure we all know about by now. Sorry to go off topic but just shows how disgusting the whole organization is. Also explains why that Mark Anthony guy won last years MP Olympia

Father Jim Manion is an IFBB and NPC chairperson and head judge. Bottom line: he oversees who wins, and how athletes place in competitions. Son J.M. Manion runs JM Management - a fitness and figure group that assists female competitors.

So let?s do the math?

A female athlete pays son J.M. Manion to ?manage? her career. Female athlete enters contest, and is judged by father Jim Manion. Son J.M. Manion takes a cut of female athlete?s winnings.

Do you see any incentive here for daddy to help son? I knew you would. It is here that the story becomes curious. Anthony Roberts reports,

One girl who signed with J.M. Manion, Kristin Nunn, went from just earning her procard (in the NPC) to placing in the top 5 in her very first pro show (in the much harder IFBB).

Another athlete who signed with him immediately went from 7th in the Fitness International to placing within the top 5 for the remainder of her shows that year (2004) - including the Fitness Olympia. Pretty amazing that someone who couldn?t crack the top 5 (AT ALL), would sign with the son of the IFBB head judge, and then finish in the top 5 for the remainder of the year, including much harder contests.

But of course, the most glaring example of J.M.?s stellar ability to ?manage? female athletes (when his father directly decides whether or not they win contests) has been seen in the Fitness Olympia. Susie Curry (JM Management athlete) held the first place title for four years while Kelly Ryan was in second place for three of those years. Then, when Susie retired, Adela Freidmansky (another JM Management athlete) took first (inexplicably bypassing Ryan), while Kim Klein (who had just signed with JM) moved up into 4th place, from 11th the previous year. Of course, all of this happened immediately after JM signed them, and always in contests his father had influence over, or directly controlled the outcome of. This same year, arguably the best figure competitor ever to step on stage, Monica Brant, took second in the figure Olympia to?yes, you guessed it, a JM signed athlete, Davana Medina.

Roberts also noted that the top 5 placings in the 2008 Figure Olympia were ?managed? by J.M. Manion.

It?s time for the Manions to address this issue. I encourage everyone reading this story to take action by either blogging/Twittering/forum posting this story, or by emailing the NPC/IFBB.

It is a conflict of interest for a son to make money off contests that his father judges. Bodybuilding can?t be taken seriously when this sort of family involvement is allowed to go on.

[Chocpie]

Just out of curiosity, how does one become a bodybuilding judge for the IFBB?
Are there certain qualifications/skills that are specific to the judge chosen? Or do they just pick certain 'significant' industry identities who boast an 'eye for talent'?
Honestly, if it's the latter then regardless of their opinion it has no power in a constructive bodybuilding debate, but if it's the former then i'm happy to accept that i'm just not seeing what professional eyes do.

[chenko]

Just out of curiosity, how does one become a bodybuilding judge for the IFBB?
Are there certain qualifications/skills that are specific to the judge chosen? Or do they just pick certain 'significant' industry identities who boast an 'eye for talent'?
Honestly, if it's the latter then regardless of their opinion it has no power in a constructive bodybuilding debate, but if it's the former then i'm happy to accept that i'm just not seeing what professional eyes do.

are you corruptable?
do you do as your told and dont ask questions?
can you spew the company line no matter how silly you sound?

if so....you too can be an IFBB judge!

[Unbiasedfan]

Ok boys. Chad is chad Nichols, not a judge.

Lee Thompson is a judge as far as i can tell, but didn't judge the O considering the amount of instagram posts he was doing during the O. He was the one that said the traps comment.

http://instagram.com/p/tP-fMwS0YZ/

[patbanya]

Phil Heath originally got his nickname because he steals from the rich and gives to the poor. Since the name "Robin Hood" was already taken, he reluctantly adopted the moniker of "The Gift".

You learn something new every day.

[Paranoy]

This. When I heard that "his traps outsize him" I literally thought wtf, was that judge trying to be sarcastic or..?

Yeah if you wanna see off-balance just look at Phills most muscular - each delt dwarfing each pec.

[featureless]

- "You cannot play the size game against shape, symmetry, conditioning and balance. You lose, there's five other things that get you there before muscularity."

"The biggest story of this event, and it's a fact, it's what Branch Warren brought to the stage this year."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Unbiasedfan]

"The biggest story of this event, and it's a fact, it's what Branch Warren brought to the stage this year."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

seriously lol. This was a laughfest

[Ragana]

Ok boys. Chad is chad Nichols, not a judge.

Lee Thompson is a judge as far as i can tell, but didn't judge the O considering the amount of instagram posts he was doing during the O. He was the one that said the traps comment.

http://instagram.com/p/tP-fMwS0YZ/

Your bro science is out of this world.

Lee Thompson is the head judge, of course he judged it lol.

[Milone79]

all this confirms is tha tI was correct.... IFBB judges are totally retarded!!!! The panel should be made up of PAST competitors and a few olympia winners only....most of those douche bags dont even lift.

[Unbiasedfan]

Your bro science is out of this world.

Lee Thompson is the head judge, of course he judged it lol.

So he is judging the contest and making social media posts about the contest he is judging long before results are out? find it weird. It wasn't brosience, it seemed like a reasonable assumption...even more being the head judge, who has more responsibilities than just "judging".

Even lamer anyway, head judge is a moron.

[RoroCwalker]

When the Olympia/AC time comes around, should we host our own thread and have people fill in a poll/criteria on the forum?

[NVious]

Lee Thompson also DQed Cedric in Brazil for missing the athletes meeting, this guy is a massive cancer and it's no wonder the IFBS is a massive gongshow.