Thai girl gives birth at the age of nine

[SYRIANKID]

and that makes it right, since your quoting islamic law

Yes exactly

but when we quote united states law, its "arbitrary" and basicalyl meaningless

Also true, because any group of people can get together and formulate a set of laws to govern society. What makes their formulation a standard?

[SYRIANKID]

now 9 year olds are past majority? hell give her a bottle of vodka and a pack of smokes while we're at it, and a license...she must be mature enough for all of this at the ripe old age of 9!

so, since she's mature in your eyes, it would be ok for her to

get drunk
chain smoke
vote
drive a car
and go to war as a soldier?

Well many of the things you mentioned above are unlawful, so they should never be doing that, but otherwise they can do the lawful things as long as they are as qualified as anyone else.

[coontang]

Since she is the one that decides if she wants to get married or not, she would know more than you.

In a part of the world where arranged marriages are common, I doubt that what "she decides" really f*cking matters to these people.

[SYRIANKID]

In a part of the world where arranged marriages are common, I doubt that what "she decides" really f*cking matters to these people.

But now you are being illogical, because your argument is based on a presumption of what happened because of what sometimes happens, while I'm telling you that they have as much choice as you do in the matter. You can't force someone into marriage, you can't cite an infraction of the law as something that is likely to happen in every case.

[coontang]

But nobody is arguing otherwise, since if you actually did read up to the second page, you would realize that the argument is not based on age at all.

If you're not arguing otherwise, than you'd have to agree that, being mentally and physically unequipped to have sex and children, we shouldn't allow a 9 year old girl to do so now matter what she chooses. Not because some old goddamn book says so, but because it's in her best INTERESTS. Doing things in the best interests of women seems to be something a certain religion is lacking.

[SYRIANKID]

If you're not arguing otherwise, than you'd have to agree that, being mentally and physically unequipped to have sex and children, we shouldn't allow a 9 year old girl to do so now matter what she chooses.

No, because while MANY would not be, some WOULD be, so you have to approach it from a case by case basis, since marriages occur in that way anyway.

Not because some old goddamn book says so, but because it's in her best INTERESTS. Doing things in the best interests of women seems to be something a certain religion is lacking.

Well it seems that you're the only one limiting their rights in this case.

A young pubescent woman WANTS to get married, has gone through with friends over what the responsbilities of marriage will be like (just like anyone else would), and is totally consenting. Coontang blocks her in the name of "freedom and her best interest". Fascinating twist!

[coontang]

But now you are being illogical, because your argument is based on a presumption of what happened because of what sometimes happens, while I'm telling you that they have as much choice as you do in the matter. You can't force someone into marriage, you can't cite an infraction of the law as something that is likely to happen in every case.

Isn't that what you just did with this thread? You're trying to prove that just because one 9 year old girl had a child, all 9 year olds are equipped for marriage?


If it has a bad outcome, then it's in our best interests to ban that behavior, whether it happens every time or not. There are many cases where drunk drivers get home from the bar just fine. But there are laws against drunk driving.

Listen, your whole argument rests on the assumption that it's the girl's choice. If I can point to situations where its not the girl's choice, like the tradition of arranged marriages in south asian countries, then your argument fails. That's what I did.

[coontang]

No, because while MANY would not be, some WOULD be, so you have to approach it from a case by case basis, since marriages occur in that way anyway.

Ok, then I propose you tell me how you determine, in each individual case, whether a 9 year old girl is equipped for sex and child bearing? Do you check her underwear for blood? Is there a certain amount of hair that must be present first? I don't mind going on a case by case basis. Tell me how we're going to do it.

A young pubescent woman WANTS to get married, has gone through with friends over what the responsbilities of marriage will be like (just like anyone else would), and is totally consenting. Coontang blocks her in the name of "freedom and her best interest". Fascinating twist!

Tell me how you determine what I have in bold, keeping in mind that in most cases, a 9 year old girl doesn't qualify as being "pubescent."

[SYRIANKID]

Isn't that what you just did with this thread? You're trying to prove that just because one 9 year old girl had a child, all 9 year olds are equipped for marriage?

Ummm...no.

I am saying that the age of legal maturity is puberty. So for a very obscure minority, that CAN be 9, but usually it's between 11-19.

If it has a bad outcome, then it's in our best interests to ban that behavior, whether it happens every time or not. There are many cases where drunk drivers get home from the bar just fine. But there are laws against drunk driving.

Well that is a bad example since being drunk and driving whlie drunk are both illegal in Islam. But you cannot make the lawful unlawful in Islam. If you DO have a specific problem in a marriage, the judge will deal with it specifically, you cannot make what God has made permissible ILLEGAL just because a few people abused the system.

Listen, your whole argument rests on the assumption that it's the girl's choice. If I can point to situations where its not the girl's choice, like the tradition of arranged marriages in south asian countries, then your argument fails. That's what I did.

haha no actually that wouldn't do anything because I agree that a woman can't be forced, and if she is, she can get out of the marriage. We're talking about the legal parameters themselves: consent and adulthood. Now if some guy BREAKS that law by removing consent, then HE has committed the infraction and is punished. How does that have ANY bearing on what we are talking about?

That's like making a law disfavoring women further just because men rape them. Instead, PUNISH the rapist, don't change the law to disadvantage the women.

[Reano]

1230.

Thats 1230 more than Mohammed.

That was fabulous! Best laugh in a long time!

[coontang]

Ummm...no.

I am saying that the age of legal maturity is puberty. So for a very obscure minority, that CAN be 9, but usually it's between 11-19.

Like I asked you several times in this thread, tell me how you determine whether it's 9, 11, or 19?

haha no actually that wouldn't do anything because I agree that a woman can't be forced, and if she is, she can get out of the marriage. We're talking about the legal parameters themselves: consent and adulthood. Now if some guy BREAKS that law by removing consent, then HE has committed the infraction and is punished. How does that have ANY bearing on what we are talking about?

It has bearing because when you mix the two, it's bad news. In an ideal world, forced marriages wouldn't occur. But they do occur. And they occur in many predominately muslim countries. So while Ideally, it would always be a choice for the girl/woman, it's not, and so I'm suspicious of the example you posted of a 9 year old girl having a healthy marriage.

[SYRIANKID]

Like I asked you several times in this thread, tell me how you determine whether it's 9, 11, or 19?

It depends on the person's testimony. Clearly if there is a legal need it's not too difficult to ask for evidence.

It has bearing because when you mix the two, it's bad news. In an ideal world, forced marriages wouldn't occur. But they do occur. And they occur in many predominately muslim countries. So while Ideally, it would always be a choice for the girl/woman, it's not, and so I'm suspicious of the example you posted of a 9 year old girl having a healthy marriage.

But then your issue is not with marriage being lawful at puberty, it's with forced marriage. Actually, most "forced marriages" occur in Hindu India.

[coontang]

It depends on the person's testimony. Clearly if there is a legal need it's not too difficult to ask for evidence.

Somehow I don't think these kind of trials happen too often. And I'm not sure what kind of conclusive evidence you could come up with to show a judge. "Hey look, this 8 year old girl has hair under her arms judge! So I can bang her all I want!"

But then your issue is not with marriage being lawful at puberty, it's with forced marriage. Actually, most "forced marriages" occur in Hindu India.

Haha. No I have a problem with the whole damn thing. It just makes me even sicker with the thought that the girl had no choice.

The fact of the matter is, since there is no method to determine whether a girl is physically or mentally capable of being in a sexual relationship, there should be blanket restrictions on these kind of things in the best interest of the majority. You can't approach it on a case by case basis, becuase there is no objective way to do so.

[BPP]

Yes exactly



Also true, because any group of people can get together and formulate a set of laws to govern society. What makes their formulation a standard?

and anyone can write a fairy tale and call it a religious booka nd get people to follow it blindly, what makes your religion "right" other than you wanting it to?

[SYRIANKID]

Somehow I don't think these kind of trials happen too often. And I'm not sure what kind of conclusive evidence you could come up with to show a judge. "Hey look, this 8 year old girl has hair under her arms judge! So I can bang her all I want!"

Young marriages don't happen that often either. Plus I can tell you aren't yet understanding the reality of the situation. In your quote, you have a guy wanting to sleep with a girl. But in reality, PART of the reason women get married, is to SLEEP with men also. People going through puberty have sexual needs also. You make it one sided.

Haha. No I have a problem with the whole damn thing. It just makes me even sicker with the thought that the girl had no choice.

Well that's not going to change, legal maturity is still going to be based on puberty.

The fact of the matter is, since there is no method to determine whether a girl is physically or mentally capable of being in a sexual relationship, there should be blanket restrictions on these kind of things in the best interest of the majority. You can't approach it on a case by case basis, becuase there is no objective way to do so.

There is an objective way and it's called maturity at puberty. You see, anyone can also invent many restrictions on what it takes to get married or have kids, but in reality, all you need is maturity and sanity. If you are not going to prevent older mentally unstable adults from getting married and having kids, you definitely have no reason to prevent younger adults.

Look at the marriages of older people you consider fit: cheating, divorce within the first few years of marriage, kids raised in nurseries and day-care centers. I don't even how you can talk.

[JBDW]

and anyone can write a fairy tale and call it a religious booka nd get people to follow it blindly, what makes your religion "right" other than you wanting it to?

BPP, you just opened up a can of worms here..

[BPP]

Well many of the things you mentioned above are unlawful, so they should never be doing that, but otherwise they can do the lawful things as long as they are as qualified as anyone else.

waitt, so those things are unlawful bc our "arbitrary" law deems them so, for example having to be 16 to drive and not 14...and you dont bitch about that

funny how our klaw doesnt matter at one point, but when its convenient for you it does(unless Islam sets a war/driving age)

[BPP]

But now you are being illogical, because your argument is based on a presumption of what happened .

you're entire ARGUMENT is based on presumption! do you know this 9 year old? have you spoken with her? no, all you know is she had a baby, and you assume that means shes of sound and capable mind to be married

[SYRIANKID]

and anyone can write a fairy tale and call it a religious booka nd get people to follow it blindly, what makes your religion "right" other than you wanting it to?

I agree, which is why you have to be careful before subscribing to any claim to Truth, and demand evidence that it is Divinely revealed.

You might want to browse this thread:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=657501

[SYRIANKID]

you're entire ARGUMENT is based on presumption! do you know this 9 year old? have you spoken with her? no, all you know is she had a baby, and you assume that means shes of sound and capable mind to be married

Actually, the reason I created the thread was to show that some people DO go through puberty at 9 years old, not that this necessarily means that the specific marriage was legitimate. It could be though. (Previously people were denying that it even happened).

[BPP]

A young pubescent woman WANTS to get married, has gone through with friends over what the responsbilities of marriage will be like and is totally consenting.

once again a presumption on your part...for all we know she could've been raped and could be beaten by the father to tell everyone its consenual

not to mention again, how exactly do you qualify her to be of sound mind to consent? 8 and 9 year olds play marraige all the time and would be able to tell you they understand and want to..and most of them the next day decide they want to do something else

[BPP]

BPP, you just opened up a can of worms here..

im simply saying, his views come from a religion, something based on presumption and stories, whereas government laws come from studies and experience

[SYRIANKID]

once again a presumption on your part...for all we know she could've been raped and could be beaten by the father to tell everyone its consenual

That's true...but that can happen to anyone at any age. We need evidence, not possibilities and conspiracies.

not to mention again, how exactly do you qualify her to be of sound mind to consent? 8 and 9 year olds play marraige all the time and would be able to tell you they understand and want to..and most of them the next day decide they want to do something else

But most adults fail at marriage too...clearly age doesn't guarantee marital success.

[SYRIANKID]

waitt, so those things are unlawful bc our "arbitrary" law deems them so, for example having to be 16 to drive and not 14...and you dont bitch about that

I don't complain because I don't care, but it quite easily have been 14...or 30.

funny how our klaw doesnt matter at one point, but when its convenient for you it does(unless Islam sets a war/driving age)

Well the Muslim age would be earlier anyway. My point is that there is no real reason minimum ages are set besides the fact that people decided it is legitimate and it's a "safe" upper estimate.

Believe me, if the schooling system was different in the U.S., even those legal ages would drop. Unfortunately, many people today ARE too imature, I've been to highschool, it's not a breakthrough. But it doesn't have to be this way. How mature you are depends largely on your upbringing, your social environment, and what people expect of you.

If you were expected to raise a family by puberty and take up arms against marauders at any minute, trust me we'd all be cracking fewer e-jokes.

[frankenstein]

Wait a second. Someone may have mentioned this already, but the girl is 9, but the father of the child says she was born in 1991. That would make her 14-15 now. So is this article from 2000?


Also, SK. Kids nowadays start puberty at a much sooner age than they did just 50 years ago. There are several theories on why, including diet and chemicals that are in food that weren't there 50 years ago. A girl who's 9 and starts menstruating is not uncommon nowadays in any part of the world. Rewind less than a century ago and it was an extreme rarity.

More to the point, nice try SK to placate the actions of a ****philic Mohammed (PIITB). No girls have ever had more than mosquito bite sized breasts at age 9. And certainly none have ever reached emotional maturity by that time. Emotional maturity happens after physical maturity often begins.

SK, a blade of grass on the field, so let's play ball????

[BPP]

That's true...but that can happen to anyone at any age. We need evidence, not possibilities and conspiracies.

true, but but its alot easier to rape, subdue or cause a 9 year old to say what u want than say a 25 year old

[BPP]

http://www.sexualrecords.com/WSRprev.html

so you're telling me this girl reached majority and was an adult by age 5? and that sex was ok at 3 and 4 since she had had periods and breasts by then?

you can honestly tell me that this 5 year old, who consideres the child as a brother and according to other links couldn't even describe the father in any understandable way, was of sound mind to make rational life choices?


Youngest Mother
The youngest mother whose history is authenticated is Lina Medina, who delivered a 6½-pound boy by cesarean section in Lima, Peru in 1939, at an age of 5 years and 7 months. The child was raised as her brother and only discovered that Lina was his mother when he was 10. And you thought teenage pregnancies complicate matters.

Girls such as this suffer from a hormonal imbalance, or precocious puberty, which is characterized by premature secondary sex characteristic development. In a small percentage ovarian and uterine development appropriate for fertility also occurs, making pregnancy possible. Lina, for instance, began menstruating at age 3.

The full details of this event was witnessed by Edmundo Escomel and written up in the Dictionary of Medical Science, May 1939.

bump for SK

this 3 year old was mature enough to be a woman and not a child and to make decisions regarding her life?

[getting2big]

im simply saying, his views come from a religion, something based on presumption and stories, whereas government laws come from studies and experience

The laws you are talking about are Laws of God. You are trying to compare them to Laws of man. God makes no mistake, while man makes mistakes. So it's obvious that you MUST follow the laws of God. You yourself said that government laws came from experience, thus man made previous mistakes to arrive to these laws. This in itself proves that the current laws might be wrong and in the future man might realize that and change them.

This was a simple overview to prove that government laws arent something that is 100% accurate and they maybe meanigless.

[SYRIANKID]

true, but but its alot easier to rape, subdue or cause a 9 year old to say what u want than say a 25 year old

But you still need evidence, not possibilities.

http://www.sexualrecords.com/WSRprev.html

so you're telling me this girl reached majority and was an adult by age 5? and that sex was ok at 3 and 4 since she had had periods and breasts by then?

you can honestly tell me that this 5 year old, who consideres the child as a brother and according to other links couldn't even describe the father in any understandable way, was of sound mind to make rational life choices?


Youngest Mother
The youngest mother whose history is authenticated is Lina Medina, who delivered a 6½-pound boy by cesarean section in Lima, Peru in 1939, at an age of 5 years and 7 months. The child was raised as her brother and only discovered that Lina was his mother when he was 10. And you thought teenage pregnancies complicate matters.

Girls such as this suffer from a hormonal imbalance, or precocious puberty, which is characterized by premature secondary sex characteristic development. In a small percentage ovarian and uterine development appropriate for fertility also occurs, making pregnancy possible. Lina, for instance, began menstruating at age 3.

The full details of this event was witnessed by Edmundo Escomel and written up in the Dictionary of Medical Science, May 1939.

If she were actually sentient enough to ask to get married, sure, though the parents do reserve the temporary right to forbid that if they feel their son or daughter are not capable of it.

[BPP]

The laws you are talking about are Laws of God. You are trying to compare them to Laws of man. God makes no mistake, while man makes mistakes. So it's obvious that you MUST follow the laws of God. You yourself said that government laws came from experience, thus man made previous mistakes to arrive to these laws. This in itself proves that the current laws might be wrong and in the future man might realize that and change them.

This was a simple overview to prove that government laws arent something that is 100% accurate and they maybe meanigless.

and how many different "gods laws" are out there? unless you are of that specific religion, those have less meaning than man's law since they have no basis to you

and again, theres nothing to "prove" theyre gods law other than faith in handed-down word