do powerlifters do any oly liftin excersises?

[iSnatchUrSquat]

i.e. power cleans or clean pulls?

just wondering

[ajc1234]

I personally don't, but others might, interested in hearing other opinions.

[ChristianF15]

i.e. power cleans or clean pulls?

just wondering

Johnny Candito likes to do snatch deadlifts as a variation of the deadlift

[lee__d]

^That's just a grip though, not really an Oly lift.

I haven't see many of the more well known guys do them, at least not when prepping for a meet. I'd be curious to see if anyone does them. I'd guess they're in the minority as a slow 1RM powerlift really isn't all that similar to an explosive oly lift.

[lifterut]

I do complexes on active recovery days. Snatch, clean and press, push press, power cleans, high pulls, hang cleans, overhead squats, and front squats are all in the rotation.

[ChristianF15]

^That's just a grip though, not really an Oly lift.

I haven't see many of the more well known guys do them, at least not when prepping for a meet. I'd be curious to see if anyone does them. I'd guess they're in the minority as a slow 1RM powerlift really isn't all that similar to an explosive oly lift.

You are indeed right, and I didn't think about it just being a grip variation. That is the closest I could think of though.

[PaleHorseDX]

If you want to count front squats in the Olympic style category then yes. I love front squats as an accessory.

[grouchyjarhead]

Cleans and front squats are common.

Larry Pacifico used to have an entire day of Olympic lifting and had some decent numbers for not being an Olympic lifter. At maybe 190 pounds at his best he could snatch close to 125kg/275 pounds and clean and jerk 145kg/319 pounds. Not setting any records but he'd hold his own.

[Rosienumber53]

I do power cleans some times, but mostly for football, but it could help with explosiveness

[NotThatUgly]

is there much carry-over? olympic lifting is mostly technique and getting under the bar as fast as possible. It's debatable to what extent you can even train explosiveness.

[Rosienumber53]

is there much carry-over? olympic lifting is mostly technique and getting under the bar as fast as possible. It's debatable to what extent you can even train explosiveness.

Well my form is absolutely terrible, so for me i just deadlift it as fast i can and jump and yank, and i end up holding the bar at my chin. So its like really fast deadlifting for me

[bigfor15]

Some do, but definitely not to any large extent. Oly lifts are taxing on the body and require a lot of technique work in order to have any real utility to power production. In that regard, it's definitely a risk/reward issue with the big 3 usually winning out.


This obviously doesn't apply to people like Mark Henry or Kokleav. Some people just aren't human.

[Pull4YourLife]

I don't perform any olympic lifts, but I do front squat and occasionally snatch grip deadlifts.

[OmegaTim89]

I will front squat on a regular basis, usally after doing my regular squat work. I will do cleans, push presses, and clean and jerks on shoulder/trap day. But, usually only at the end of the workout for fun or when I'm in the mood. My brother likes over head squat, so I will do that with him when we work out. But none of them are my main lifts that I focus on.

[kennycroxdale]

I haven't see many of the more well known guys do them, at least not when prepping for a meet. I'd be curious to see if anyone does them. I'd guess they're in the minority as a slow 1RM powerlift really isn't all that similar to an explosive oly lift.

Olympic movement enhance strength movements in Powerlifting.

Olympic movement increase power. Power is the grease that helps you slide through your sticking point in a Squat, Bench or Deadlift.

One of the best article written on this is Bill Starr's...

A Different Approach To Improving The Deadlift

Starr, an Olympic Lifter, set the 198 lb American Deadlift Record in 1968 at the Senior National Powerlifting Championships.

Ernie Pickett, another Olympic Lift, pulled close to Don Cundy's Heavyweight Amercan Deadlift Record at the Senior Nationals.

Neither Starr nor Pickett deadlifted before the meet.

They performed Heavy Good Mornings and Olympic Pulls.

Westside Method

Louie Simmons revolutionized Powerlifting with the development of "Speed Training Days". However, due to the loading percentage, Speed Days are actually "Power Days".

Simmons has stated the he's a disciple of Starr and advocates Olympic Pulls as a method of increasing power.

Also, the foundation of Simmons' Westside Method is taken from Olympic Lifter training method which employ power training.

Simmons also promotes Heavy Good Morning, as Starr, to increased the Deadlift.

The "NO Deadlift" Deadlift Program

In 2001, this article was in the 2001 issue of Powerlifting USA. It was build around my success in going from a 540 lb Deadlift to a 617 lb Deadlift using Bill Starr's method.

The focus was on the implementation of Olympic Pulls as a tool for increasing the Deadift.

The article went into Starr's Heavy Good Morning-Olympic Pull Method.

The article examined some of the protocol that Simmons borrowed from Bill Starr.

Speed Training

There no doubt that Simmons "Speed Days" for the Squat, Bench and Deadlift work.

However, one of the problem is power output with a "Speed Day" with the Squat, Bench and Deadlift do not rival Olympic Movements.

Power Output for the Squat and Deadlift are about 12 watts per kilo of body weight; the Bench Press comes in at a dismal 4 watts per kilo.

Olympic Movement produce over 52 watts per kilo, roughly 4.38 time greater than a Squat or Deadlift.

Source: A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test. Dr John Garhammer

Power Training For Powerlifters

The Westside's "Speed Days" work.

However, to fully maximize your best lifts at a Powerlifting Meet or in the gym, some type of "Power Training Days" with Olympic Movement is needed.

Kenny Croxdale

[kennycroxdale]

is there much carry-over? olympic lifting is mostly technique and getting under the bar as fast as possible. It's debatable to what extent you can even train explosiveness.

Westside Method

Simmons' Westside Method was developed in the early 1980s. His program is built on the Olympic Lifter's protocol.

Various other research such as Dr Michael Zourdos' has demonstrated that Conjugate Methods (employing power movements in a strength/Powerlifting Program) produce greater optimal results.

Kenny Croxdale

[lee__d]

Good post, Kenny. I was unaware of that Starr article.

[MtnJax]

lifters who compete in Super Total do

[congore]

I train for athleticism and not just power lifting (sprints, MMA...). However, the big three (squat, bench, and deadlift) do represent the majority of my lifting. The last few macros I have replaced dead lifts with power cleans for most weeks. I end up doing 2-3 workouts of power cleans for every 1 heavy dead lift per cycle. I've found that doing this actually has helped my dead lifts go up. Granted, I'm only pushing a bit over 400 lbs on my deads, but its nice to see someone like Kenny putting the justification to it. Thanks.

[kennycroxdale]

I train for athleticism and not just power lifting (sprints, MMA...). However, the big three (squat, bench, and deadlift) do represent the majority of my lifting. The last few macros I have replaced dead lifts with power cleans for most weeks. I end up doing 2-3 workouts of power cleans for every 1 heavy dead lift per cycle. I've found that doing this actually has helped my dead lifts go up.

1 Heavy Deadlift Per Cycle

The Conjugate Method of employing Good Mornings and Olympic Pulls in a Deadlift Program was used by a Phil Rivers (a local lifter) after reading the article that I wrote.

However, Phil re-wrote his program. Like you (Condore), Phil performed Olympic Pulls for three weeks. On the fourth week, he would Deadlift.

His Meet Deadlift went up 40 lbs with his program

Granted, I'm only pushing a bit over 400 lbs on my deads, but its nice to see someone like Kenny putting the justification to it. Thanks.

Justification

The irony was that Bill Starr's "Different Approach" to the Deadlift came out in 1968. After reading it, I followed it and increased my Deadlift by 20 lbs as a 75 kg/165 lb Powerlifter.

However, the Powerlifting gang that I lifted with convince me it would not work. Since I was young and impressionable at the time, I STOPPED performing the No Deadlift Program.

I didn't go back to the No Deadlift Program for twenty years. Yea, I am that old.

Re-implementation

I re-implemented for a few reasons.

1) Traditional Deadlift Training.

Over the years, I found that even with once a week Deadlifts beat my back up and wore it down. I often ended up pulling more in the gym than at meets because my back was overtrained.

2) Dr Tom McLaughlin's Research. Back in the 1980s, McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics/Powerlifter) wrote a series of articles on Deadlift Training.

As per McLaughlin, "The lower back is quickly and easily overtrained". The lower back also requires longer recovery time. That it one of the reasons, the majority of Powerlifters only train it once a week.

This reinforced what I learned the hard way, the lower back is sensitive to training.

3) Simmons' Westside Method.

Simmons took cues from Starr. Simmons promoted Heavy Good Morning along with "Speed Deadlifts".

"Speeds Deadlift" being somewhat similar to Olympic Pulls. However, the power output of "Speed Deadlifts" is substantially lower.

Based on all the information, I knew...

Something Had To Change

As a Conventional Deadlifter, I was strong off the floor. My sticking point was in the knee area.

I restructured my Deadlift Training with Partial Rack Deadlift Pulls and Olympic Pulls. That took my Meet Deadlift from 540 to 595 lbs.

However, even the Rack Pulls were beating my lower back up.

I dropped Rack Deadlifts and replaced them with...

Heavy Good Mornings

Since I had never really performed Good Mornings, I started off with 95 lbs.

I then decided to only perform Partial Good Mornings. Since my sticking point was in the knee area, I positioned the Rack Pins so that Good Mornings were performed from just below the knee.

I found Heavy Good Mornings allowed me to train my posterior chain heavy without beating my lower back up.

I didn't perform any type of Deadlift prior to the Meets.

I ended up pulling 606 lbs/275 kg at one Meet with this non-traditional program.

I eventually pulled a 617 lbs/280 lbs Deadlift.

With that said let's look at...

Deadlift Training

1) Some time needs to be devote to practicing the Deadlift by lifters so that the movement is "Hard Wired" in.

It's like driving a car, you need to perform it enough so that it's automatic, you do it without thinking about it.

2) Technique is best developed with single reps in the 85% plus area. That because the muscle firing sequence is different with lighter load (let's say 70% vs 90%).

Think of it like hitting a baseball. It's hard to hit a 90 mph fast ball if all you have ever practices is hitting a 60 mph ball.

3) Stop The Movement! When performing fairly heavy single Deadlifts for technique, Stop the movement once you become fatigued. Continuing during a fatigued state is when technique falls apart.

What you do in a fatigued state is reinforce bad technique. This is true of any exercise or movement.

4) Natural and Unnatural. I am a Natural Deadlifter. So, I don't need much technique practice.

For lifters who are Unnatural Deadlifters, more technique training is required.

As a personal example, I am an Unnatural Squatter. Thus, a lot of my time is devoted to Squat technique training.

Power Training

Westside's "Speed Training" is a misnomer. Due to the Training Percentage used (40-65% of 1 Repetition Max), it is actually "Power Training".

Take Home Message

For optimal strength, some type of power training (along with hypertrophy training, another topic for another time) needs to be part of a well written training program.

Condore's Power Cleans for 2 - 3 weeks and Deadlifting is an effective method that works.

Kenny Croxdale

[grouchyjarhead]

Kenny - For some guys who don't know the lifts, would high pulls be an acceptable alternative?

(I love picking Kenny's brain for stuff like this - he has a ton of great knowledge others can benefit from.)

[kennycroxdale]

Kenny - For some guys who don't know the lifts, would high pulls be an acceptable alternative?

(I love picking Kenny's brain for stuff like this - he has a ton of great knowledge others can benefit from.)

Absolutely!

The greatest amount of power output is exerted during the accelerated pulling phase of the movement.

During "The Catch" of a Power Clean or Power Snatch, you stop the acceleration pulling phase, dropping under the bar for the catch.

A great article on this is...

The Clean High Pull
https://www.t-nation.com/training/clean-high-pull

Alan Hedrick's one of the top Strength Coaches in the business. His Clean High Pulll article goes into it.

Another Alternative

Another alternative is a Heavy Kettlebell Swing.

Kettlebells Swings also increase power output, providing enough weight is used.

With that said, the Kettlebell Swing needs to be performed with a load that is close to your body weight.

Thus, if you weight 180 lbs, you need to be swinging a Kettlebell that definitely over 100 lbs or even close to 200 lbs.

Brett Contreras goes into this in...

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?
https://www.t-nation.com/training/ar...than-deadlifts

Power output numbers are listed in the article under...

Inherent Ground Reaction Forces Involved in 2 Styles of Kettlebell Swings

Contreras provides power output in Newtons on two types of Swings with a 140 lb Kettlebell.

The Newtons measured means both movement produce a lot of force.

1) Squat Style Swing Peak Vertical Force: 2,431-2,444 Newtons

You squat into this movement; it placing the workload on the quads and glutes.

2) Hip Hinge Style: 2,325-2,550 Newtons

This movement is performed with a slight bend in the knees, more of a straight leg swing. The workload falling hamstrings and glutes.

Heavy Kettlebell Swings

Heavy 100 lb plus Kettlebells are rare.

If a Heavy Kettlebell isn't available, a Heavy Dumbbell can be used.

What also works is a "Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster". The cost is about $20 of pipe from Lowes/Home Depot and some Standard 1 inch Weight Plates.

Contreras' article show you how to make one.

Kenny Croxdale