For those who try to maximise muscle protein synthesis

[-TheKingPin-]

Brad Schoenfeld on Intermittent Fasting.



http://www.outsideonline.com/2109091...ake-you-faster

Are there any figures as to how much more muscle one can gain over an annual basis by increasing protein feeding frequency.

ie. If I were to eat adequate protein spread evenly over 3 meals per day as opposed to just two, would I likely see 33% more net muscle gain at the end of the year assuming identical training routines, macronutrient intake, sleep etc.

[ThinkAndGoHam]

There's no exact answer to your question.

If you want to maximise muscle building/retention it would be better to add 10 gram protein from whey to your milk.

If you're just a regular joe trying to gain some muscle I wouldn't worry about it.

ok cheers, guess i shouldn't worry about it. as long as its nothing like a 50% decrease in gains per year lol

[ThinkAndGoHam]

Are there any figures as to how much more muscle one can gain over an annual basis by increasing protein feeding frequency.

ie. If I were to eat adequate protein spread evenly over 3 meals per day as opposed to just two, would I likely see 33% more net muscle gain at the end of the year assuming identical training routines, macronutrient intake, sleep etc.

This is a great question and i am interested to hear the answer, Its kind of confusing hearing about optimal meal frequency etc, but not hear much about how that equates to real world results. It reminds me of the old white vs brown bread or rice, brown is said to be more beneficial and has people eating like bro's thinking they are going to gain noticeably more muscle each year. When in reality they could eat in a way they found more convenient and not notice a difference in results. Im not saying meal frequency is the same but i would like to hear what this all equates to in the real world.

[Mrpb]

Are there any figures as to how much more muscle one can gain over an annual basis by increasing protein feeding frequency.

ie. If I were to eat adequate protein spread evenly over 3 meals per day as opposed to just two, would I likely see 33% more net muscle gain at the end of the year assuming identical training routines, macronutrient intake, sleep etc.

No exact numbers of course. I'd estimate 2 protein rich meals vs. 4 protein rich meals per day maybe 20-30%.

If you gain 10 pounds of muscle over a year with 2 meals, 4 protein rich meals per day could maybe lead to 12-13 pounds.

Just ball park estimates though. Jorn would be in a better position to make these.

[SuffolkPunch]

Rather than waiting for a scientific consensus on everything before taking any kind of action, I prefer the approach where you make the best extrapolation given the available data. And include the cost to yourself of making those changes into the decision.

In other words: if it's not a big inconvenience eating 4 protein rich meals per day at breakfast, lunch, dinner and pre-bed then why not do it?

[adpayne]

In other words: if it's not a big inconvenience eating 4 protein rich meals per day at breakfast, lunch, dinner and pre-bed then why not do it?

That's just it. it is an inconvenience to many people who have a life outside of bodybuilding.
I spent decades micro-managing my meals, and stressing whenever I missed one. IF freed me from that, and I actually feel better not eating in the morning. I've been doing it for 10 years now.

Recently, I went back to eating in the morning, due to the new MPS research. It made it much harder to control my intake, and I was hungry all the time. (I have no real hunger until I eat.) I was more tired throughout the day, and my body composition started changing for the worse, without any weight gain. Not what I was looking for obviously.

So, I went back to what works for me, but with even a shorter eating window now. I feel, and look, much better again.

If eating more often works for someone, and they enjoy it, awesome!

It just doesn't fit for everyone.

[Tyler2106]

That's just it. it is an inconvenience to many people who have a life outside of bodybuilding.
I spent decades micro-managing my meals, and stressing whenever I missed one. IF freed me from that, and I actually feel better not eating in the morning. I've been doing it for 10 years now.

Recently, I went back to eating in the morning, due to the new MPS research. It made it much harder to control my intake, and I was hungry all the time. (I have no real hunger until I eat.) I was more tired throughout the day, and my body composition started changing for the worse, without any weight gain. Not what I was looking for obviously.

So, I went back to what works for me, but with even a shorter eating window now. I feel, and look, much better again.

If eating more often works for someone, and they enjoy it, awesome!

It just doesn't fit for everyone.

How does your body composition change if calories and macros are the same?

[Densans]

That's just it. it is an inconvenience to many people who have a life outside of bodybuilding.
I spent decades micro-managing my meals, and stressing whenever I missed one. IF freed me from that, and I actually feel better not eating in the morning. I've been doing it for 10 years now.

Recently, I went back to eating in the morning, due to the new MPS research. It made it much harder to control my intake, and I was hungry all the time. (I have no real hunger until I eat.) I was more tired throughout the day, and my body composition started changing for the worse, without any weight gain. Not what I was looking for obviously.

So, I went back to what works for me, but with even a shorter eating window now. I feel, and look, much better again.

If eating more often works for someone, and they enjoy it, awesome!

It just doesn't fit for everyone.

I would imagine you drink coffee?
I am the same so what I just did was at so I got 20-30g of protein from whey into my coffee I already get in the morning, there you have 1 of the meals done already for MPS.
Try it, might work for you 2. (Vanilla flavor works wonders)

[Jherewhoisdere]

How does your body composition change if calories and macros are the same?

He said that it was harder for him to control his intake and that he was more tired during the day which may have led to poor gym performance as well. Also he may have started to stress about his meals again as he did in the past and stress is not something to take lightly.

I share a similar experience regarding meal frequency.

[Tyler2106]

He said that it was harder for him to control his intake and that he was more tired during the day which may have led to poor gym performance as well. Also he may have started to stress about his meals again as he did in the past and stress is not something to take lightly.

I share a similar experience regarding meal frequency.

Thanks for speculating an answer to my question to him, but let's wait and see what he has to say.

[adpayne]

How does your body composition change if calories and macros are the same?

Because my calories went up, due to constant hunger and stress.

I would imagine you drink coffee?
I am the same so what I just did was at so I got 20-30g of protein from whey into my coffee I already get in the morning, there you have 1 of the meals done already for MPS.
Try it, might work for you 2. (Vanilla flavor works wonders)

My morning meal was a whey protein shake. It made me ravenous, and so I would break down and buy more food a couple hours later at work. I have no hunger issues if i don't eat in the morning. I am much more alert as well.

He said that it was harder for him to control his intake and that he was more tired during the day which may have led to poor gym performance as well. Also he may have started to stress about his meals again as he did in the past and stress is not something to take lightly.

I share a similar experience regarding meal frequency.

Exactly!

I love science, but I also want to feel, look, and perform well. Eating from the time I awake until the time I go to bed would not do that for me. My "optimal" eating pattern is 2 meals a day in a 4-6 hour window.

[Tyler2106]

That's just it. it is an inconvenience to many people who have a life outside of bodybuilding.
I spent decades micro-managing my meals, and stressing whenever I missed one. IF freed me from that, and I actually feel better not eating in the morning. I've been doing it for 10 years now.

Recently, I went back to eating in the morning, due to the new MPS research. It made it much harder to control my intake, and I was hungry all the time. (I have no real hunger until I eat.) I was more tired throughout the day, and my body composition started changing for the worse, without any weight gain. Not what I was looking for obviously.

So, I went back to what works for me, but with even a shorter eating window now. I feel, and look, much better again.

If eating more often works for someone, and they enjoy it, awesome!

It just doesn't fit for everyone.

Because my calories went up, due to constant hunger and stress.

In your first post, you said your weight didn't change, but in your next post you said calories went up. I guess I was confused how body weight didn't change even though calories went up. I get that some people enjoy IF and that's fine, but it sounded like you didn't actually understand what was going on when you stopped doing IF.

[adpayne]

In your first post, you said your weight didn't change, but in your next post you said calories went up. I guess I was confused how body weight didn't change even though calories went up. I get that some people enjoy IF and that's fine, but it sounded like you didn't actually understand what was going on when you stopped doing IF.

I didn't want to go into great specifics. Like many people around 200 lbs, my weight can fluctuate 4-8 lbs a day depending upon many variables. To make up for eating more in the morning, I tried to reduce calories at night. The bottom line is my weight didn't vary from this usual pattern, but my waist did.

For the record, I'm not recommending everyone start fasting. I'm 57, and have been training for 40 years, and it is what works the best for ME by far. It seems the pendulum is swinging back from meal timing isn't that important, to you need to eat every x hours again. Studies are great, but practical application is more important to me.

[SuffolkPunch]

22:00 -- interesting stuff for full body training...

[QuickReflection]

22:00 -- interesting stuff for full body training...

I have a question about this actually.

I don't really eat big meals. I eat a lot of small meals and snack a lot... 15 g of protein here, 11 g there, and I pretty much don't go more than 4 hours without eating almost ever (usually about every 2 1/2 to 3 hours). Does this make a difference?

[Mrpb]

New study: being overweight or obese is not good for MPS
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/ea...30385.abstract

22:00 -- interesting stuff for full body training...

Yes that's an interesting study.

One thing Alan didn't mention: 40 grams did better than 20 grams regardless of amount of LBM. This suggest smaller people do not need less protein like often advised.

And of course 30 gram protein from whey wasn't tested in this study. It's possible 30 would give the maximum too.

I have a question about this actually.

I don't really eat big meals. I eat a lot of small meals and snack a lot... 15 g of protein here, 11 g there, and I pretty much don't go more than 4 hours without eating almost ever (usually about every 2 1/2 to 3 hours). Does this make a difference?

Eating every 3 hours is fine. Only getting 11 grams protein doesn't give you the full MPS response. You'll still gain muscle for sure, just not at your maximum rate.

If you want to maximise MPS try to get ~25 gram protein and ~2.5 gram leucine per meal.

After full body workouts it's probably good to shoot a little higher, say ~30 gram protein ~3 gram leucine.

[ThinkAndGoHam]

My reasons for eating less meals, is for hunger reasons, i always get super hungry at night time, and the only way to stop this is my moving most of my calories to night time. Some days i skip breakfast for this reason depending on how i feel i am usualy not that hungry in the morning and skipping breakfast is easy but this means i regularly end up with only 2 meals and i enjoy eating like this. But now i get stressed worrying about eating more frequently but when i do that i am hungry all the time which is even more stress. I was to optimize my gains but at the same time i don't want to be stressed out over food all the time from being hungry,

[Mrpb]

If I eat a big meal before bed I'm usually not hungry for breakfast. If I eat a small meal with say ~60 gram carbs and ~40 gram protein I do get hungry at breakfast. So I eat the small meal.

[Mrpb]

Interesting details from a Stu Phillips study, the supplement regime aimed at maximising MPS. This is only the supplements, they had regular meals too.

Participants consumed 30 g of whey protein (BioPRO; Davisco Foods International, Le Sueur, MN) twice per day: immediately following RT on training days (8) and the other prior to sleep (39). On non-training days, participants consumed the first dose in the morning and the second dose 1–2 h prior to sleep, similar to training days.

That's about ~28-29 gram protein.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4967245/

[muruku]

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/je...2/214.full.pdf

APparently MPS is reduced when in a deficit. So maybe it does make sense to bump up calories on workout days or increase protein intake on a cut?

Recently, we showed that REX undertaken subsequent to a 5 day, moderate
(500kcal/day) energy deficit, which lowered resting MPS by
27% compared with resting energy balance, only increased MPS to
the rate originally observed at rest when subjects were in energy
balance (Areta et al., 2014). Post-exercise whey protein provision
in graded amounts of either 15 or 30 g augmented MPS and
prolonged mTOR phosphorylation in a dose-responsive manner,
demonstrating that the energy deficit-induced repression of MPS is
relieved with a larger supply of exogenous amino acids.

[EjnarKolinkar]

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/je...2/214.full.pdf

APparently MPS is reduced when in a deficit. So maybe it does make sense to bump up calories on workout days or increase protein intake on a cut?

Because I am laying down so much muscle cutting my reduction can't keep up?

It seems the pendulum is swinging back from meal timing isn't that important, to you need to eat every x hours again. Studies are great, but practical application is more important to me.

Well it does track conveniently with supplement sales, so it's not surprising the topic gets funded, and the potential results get touted.

[Mrpb]

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/je...2/214.full.pdf

APparently MPS is reduced when in a deficit. So maybe it does make sense to bump up calories on workout days or increase protein intake on a cut?

Yes that does make sense in my opinion. And it does not make sense to reduce meal frequency in a cut in my opinion.

If you're interested in this topic I suggest a Sigma nutrition podcast with a Caoileann Murphy, who works in Stu Phillips lab. http://sigmanutrition.com/episode118/

Well it does track conveniently with supplement sales, so it's not surprising the topic gets funded, and the potential results get touted.

This idea may seem plausible at first sight but if you look at it closely it doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my opinion.

I haven't seen one of the MPS studies done by Phillips, Tipton, Van Loon or Paddon Jones being funded by a supplement company.

If we assume that one of them has a bias towards supplementation, how plausible is it that leading researchers in universities in Canada, US, UK and the Netherlands all have the same bias? not very plausible I'd say.

If they were out to sell supplements why would they do so many studies with beef, pork and dairy? Would not make sense in my book.

Phillips and Tipton have repeatedly advised a mere 20 grams of protein to maximise MPS, while they are aware that 40 gram does up to ~10% better. If they were out to sell more whey it would make sense if they were advising 40 grams all the time. (Now a 2016 study by Tipton found that 40 gram did better after full body training we'll see that recommendation more.)

One of the key studies in the protein spacing theory compared 4x20 vs. 8x10 vs. 2x40 protein from whey in a 12 hour timeframe. So all conditions had 80 grams of protein. If they had the intent to sell more supplements it would make more sense to include a condition with 4x30 gram or even 4x40, but they didn't.

It seems the pendulum is swinging back from meal timing isn't that important....

Here on these forums that was a popular message. It was also interpreted as 'it doesn't matter when you eat your protein all that matters is the total' but the review this idea was based on, by Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld, didn't actually say that.

[adpayne]

Here on these forums that was a popular message. It was also interpreted as 'it doesn't matter when you eat your protein all that matters is the total' but the review this idea was based on, by Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld, didn't actually say that.

Alan A. was very specific in that "meal timing" was low on the list of importance. This is all good theoretical discussion, but unless you are making a living from athletic/physique endeavors, micro-managing protein consumption is overkill - at least from a maintenance perspective. There are plenty of folks out there with a very small feeding window, doing just fine, and their muscles aren't falling off.

[Tyler2106]

Alan A. was very specific in that "meal timing" was low on the list of importance. This is all good theoretical discussion, but unless you are making a living from athletic/physique endeavors, micro-managing protein consumption is overkill - at least from a maintenance perspective. There are plenty of folks out there with a very small feeding window, doing just fine, and their muscles aren't falling off.

These discussions and studies are trying to figure out the optimal conditions for hypertrophy. Trying to say it's all overkill or pointless just because people are doing IF and "doing just fine" is naive and narrow minded.

[adpayne]

These discussions and studies are trying to figure out the optimal conditions for hypertrophy. Trying to say it's all overkill or pointless just because people are doing IF and "doing just fine" is naive and narrow minded.

I never used the word pointless. How is suggesting there is more than one way to reach your goals narrow minded? I've been into fitness for over 40 years, and there seems to be cycles of "this is better than that". I said studies can be useful, but practical application, and adherence is more important.

Fitting your life into your fitness goals is sub-optimal to me. It should be the other way around, unless all you live for is how you look, and how much you can lift.

[Tyler2106]

I never used the word pointless. How is suggesting there is more than one way to reach your goals narrow minded? I've been into fitness for over 40 years, and there seems to be cycles of "this is better than that". I said studies can be useful, but practical application, and adherence is more important.

Fitting your life into your fitness goals is sub-optimal to me. It should be the other way around, unless all you live for is how you look, and how much you can lift.

Again, these studies and discussions are about what is optimal for hypertrophy. No one is saying it's the only way to build muscle, but when you're always posting about how you've seen results using IF, it gets annoying because it's always in threads where the discussion is how to maximize MPS. Some people, including myself, find adherence to 4-5 meals a day easy and more satisfying then starving myself for 16 hours a day.

[Jherewhoisdere]

Seems like it keeps going somewhat back and forth. What would be current most credible summary, so to speak?

Is it still 3 meals containing about 0.25g of protein/kg of body weight and one pre-bed meal with about 0.4g of protein/kg of bodyweight? All meals spaced, 4 hours between meals.

Has that changed somehow? Just curious.

[Mrpb]

Alan A. was very specific in that "meal timing" was low on the list of importance.

.... in the context of having a reasonable meal frequency. He has advised against meal frequencies in the extreme low end and high end.

Also:

Based on the data I've seen, a minimum of 3 protein-rich meals per day should be enough to maximize retention in hypocaloric conditions, whereas pushing anabolism to its maximal rate might require a minimum of 4 protein-rich meals.

Seems like it keeps going somewhat back and forth. What would be current most credible summary, so to speak?

Is it still 3 meals containing about 0.25g of protein/kg of body weight and one pre-bed meal with about 0.4g of protein/kg of bodyweight? All meals spaced, 4 hours between meals.

Has that changed somehow? Just curious.

For maximising anabolism probably 4 meals with ~30 gram quality protein (or more) and one pre bed with ~40 gram protein (or more). Most protein researchers would probably agree with that.

It is uncertain whether larger people really need more protein as the latest Tipton study did not show that.

Ps. For people that weigh 200 pounds I would still recommend more than 30 gram per meal even though the evidence is lacking.

[adpayne]

No one is saying it's the only way to build muscle, but when you're always posting about how you've seen results using IF, it gets annoying because it's always in threads where the discussion is how to maximize MPS. Some people, including myself, find adherence to 4-5 meals a day easy and more satisfying then starving myself for 16 hours a day.

I've posted in 3 threads about IF in the past year. Partly because of statements like "starving myself for 16 hours". There is a very condescending tone in that response. I have never stated it was magic, or anything of the sort. From my personal experience, I have not gotten more gainz from more frequent feedings. Others may differ.

[-TheKingPin-]

.... in the context of having a reasonable meal frequency. He has advised against meal frequencies in the extreme low end and high end.

Also:





For maximising anabolism probably 4 meals with ~30 gram quality protein (or more) and one pre bed with ~40 gram protein (or more). Most protein researchers would probably agree with that.

It is uncertain whether larger people really need more protein as the latest Tipton study did not show that.

Did they control for training history in terms of time spent weightlifting?

All I can find is a generalised inclusion criteria of 2 or more weightlifting sessions per week in the past 6 months.

Had the subjects with greater LBM been training longer prior to the study (more muscle mass) thus lower potential rates of muscle gains, and lower protein requirement?