***The Official Atheist and Christian Friendly Discussion***

[powernpain]

PNP, when I have time to sit down and formulate a response, I'll reply to this post. You make some totally unbiblical claims, which is fine, if you don't believe the Bible. Do you mind if I ask you what your "religious" background is?

I am not sure if "you don't believe the Bible" is the right way even to start this discussion. From the start one of my beliefs is the "literal interpretation" and "understanding" of what is in and can be found. We have to understand that with our individual thoughts both you a I can end in very different places. I collectively believe we must take into account many diverse aspects of what can be found in the Bible....the meaning..our interpretation..the intent.

ThomasH made some very good points ( along the same line of my thought and understanding).. I am a bit curious and cautious that you interpret this understanding as "umbilical" ( which in my very argument leads to the confines of one dimensional thought and thinking).

I do try to keep this in mind - "So where one can internalize/believe what their reading from the Bible is, who's to say they have done so as it was to be?"

From day one I was raised Anglican....it has been part of my entire life. I have chosen to have this as part of my children's life (4), ( catholic school ) I have seen them become very well versed and well rounded young individuals, who are open, non prejudiced to different thinking and ways. I have seen my children understand at the very deepest levels, love compassion, and acceptance.

Looking forward to your response..

[powernpain]

2nd, I would also add in some irony on my own account, a few posts back to CE I conveyed my purpose of sticking to the outer fringes to lessen the complexity and indifferences that can arise when dealing with small details and the tit-for tat. ( we are all going to have a different understandings and interpretations, and only knowing what is absolute can make it right. Understanding there is no absolute within our humanity and understandings, I foresee allot of back and forth)

Against better judgement I threw it out there, and now find myself knee deep in my own error of omission. Nevertheless it will be interesting.

[2nd_chance]

I am not sure if "you don't believe the Bible" is the right way even to start this discussion. From the start one of my beliefs is the "literal interpretation" and "understanding" of what is in and can be found. We have to understand that with our individual thoughts both you a I can end in very different places. I collectively believe we must take into account many diverse aspects of what can be found in the Bible....the meaning..our interpretation..the intent.

Haha... well, I said IF you don't believe... If you had been in this discussion the whole way you would understand why I asked. I assume nothing . Anyway, it'll probably be tonight before I can sit down and reply. Have a good day and thanks for joining in the discussion. I thought we were about done but it has come back to life (no pun intended)

[2nd_chance]

The only scripture in the Bible that remotely says "go to heaven" was uttered by Lucifer just before he and his army attacked God's throne in heaven.

"...for thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High..."



God says we don't go to heaven

PNP, there are many verses that discuss heaven and the believer. Paul himself was caught up to the third heaven/ paradise (and returned) while still alive (2 Corinthians 12:1-4)

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven

John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Philippians 1:21-23 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at, as I don't interpret your writing style very well. So maybe you could clarify what you meant.

And God says that an "everlasting fire" is prepared for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS........ NOT HIS PEOPLE..

Yes... God created hell for the devil and his angels. His intention was that no person go there. But... please tell me... in the passage you reference, WHO was he sending there? THE UNRIGHTEOUS (Matthew 25:31-46).

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

[bigvin73]

PNP, there are many verses that discuss heaven and the believer. Paul himself was caught up to the third heaven/ paradise (and returned) while still alive (2 Corinthians 12:1-4)

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven

John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Philippians 1:21-23 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at, as I don't interpret your writing style very well. So maybe you could clarify what you meant.


Yes... God created hell for the devil and his angels. His intention was that no person go there. But... please tell me... in the passage you reference, WHO was he sending there? THE UNRIGHTEOUS (Matthew 25:31-46).

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

I gotta jump back in Dave. I'm not as well versed or as well spoken as you two but the last verses you posted goes to support my earlier arguments from I think a months go.

The way I interpret the writings of mathew you posted it tells me a good man isn't bared from heaven because he doesn't belive actually quiet the opposite. God only casts out the wicked. The ones who don't live a good life.
Now I realize that's a radical thought especially for a bible purist as yourself but it's right there in the word of god you so clearly posted. God casts out the wicked. Mentions nothing of beliefs but of morality.

[Medtreker]

I just ate my earlier post and wept.

[chickeneater]

Haven`t piped up recently, been watching and seems to be the same old arguements, believers and non believers , so be it, even the disciples of Jesus abandoned him and did not believe, the Ressurrection of Christ his overcoming Death unified them, he seperates himself from any other MAJOR figure in Religion just by that act, thats the difference between Jesus and all the others, he did what he said he would, he wasn`t a teacher, a prophet, a good man, he never claimed to be, he was God and the Ressurrection is what ignited Chirstianity and galvanized the Apostles and electrified the Movement, Christianity is about one thing, Jesus Christ, nothing more nothing less, his life and words and deeds, they the Apostles finally realized this & all but one of the Apostles of Chirst was killed and they never once wavered as to what they Believed after the Ressurection, his teacings and life would have been like any other had he not Convinced the Apsotles by his overcoming Death and actually walking among them after his Crucifixion ! A great many still deny his power and his words, his conviction, his statment that he is the Living God------My charge, by being a beliver in Jesus Chirst and that he is the ONLY way to Heaven, through him and only him my Sins are forgiven and no other, it is the Great Commission that Jesus commanded in Matthew 28 :19-20-- Go and make Disciples of all Nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father Son & Holy Spirit & teaching them to obey Everything I have commanded !

Having A life of Faith : Realizing and confessing that God needs first place in my life, asking him to forgive my Sins and failures, Romans 3:23 & 1 John 1:9, John 3:16

Believing that Jesus Christ is Gods son,that he died & paid for my sins, that he rose again and is alive today, John 3:16 & Romans 10:9

Accepting Gods gift of salvation without earning it, Ephesians 2:8-9--Our realtionship with Jesus is restored not by anything we do, but on the basis of what he did

A life of full devotion to Christ a Journey of Spiritual Growth, devloping an honorable an integrity filled courageous life based on the character of Christ, Galatians 5:22 & Ephesians 4:12-13

A Life of serving, Devloping the spiritual gifts that God has given, which enable them to lovingly serve one another, Ephesians 6:7, 2 :8-9

A life of Stewardship, realizing all we have is his and all we really have is Him, 2 Corinthians 9:6-15

A life of Unity, Ephesians 4:4-6, Liberty, Romans 14 :1-4 & 12

To love one another 1 Corinthians 13:2

A belief in ONE God, Eternally existing in 3 persons, the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, each of whom posesses equally the attributes of deity and the characteristics of personality. A belief that in the begining God created out of nothing , everything within the Earth, to manifest his Glory, wisdom, Power & Goodness, Genesis 1:1-26, MAtthew 28 :19 , John 1:1, 3 & 4:24, Acts 5 :3-4, Romans 1:20, Ephesians 4:5-6, 2 Corinthians 13-14

That Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary and is the True God and True Man, Matthew 1 :18-25, Luke 1:25-38, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13

The Holy Spirit, which was sent into the world by the Father and Son, to apply to mankind the saving work of Christ, To enlighten the minds of sinners, to awaken them to the recognition of their need to the savior and regenerate them, a belief that at the point of salvation, he permanently indwells every believer to the point of assurance strength & wisdom, guide believers in the understanding and application of the scripture, believe his power and control are approrpriated by faith, making it possible for the believer to lead a Christ like life & Character, John 14 :16-17, 26, 15 :26-27 16 :8-11, 13, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 6:-19-20, Hebrews 9-14

A belief that Man, Was created in the image of God, he sinned, Adam, therby incurred not only physical death, but also spiritual death, which is separation from God, and that all human beings are born with sinful nature and become guilty sinners in word, deed, & thought Genesis 1:26-27, 3:1-24, Romans 3:25, 5:12 -18, 1 John 1:8

A Belief that the Bible, is the verbally and plenarily inspired word of God inerrant in its original manuscripts. The Bible is our supreme and final authority in faith & Life, 2 Timothy 3:16 2 Peter 1 :20-21

That our Salvation is a belief that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to scripture, as a represenative and substitionary sacrifice : that HE rose victoriously from the grave on the third day and that all that believe in him are justified on the grounds he shed his blood. Isaiah 53 Matthew 20:28 John3:16 Romans 3:24-26 5:1, 1 Corinthians 15:3, 2Cor 5:21, Ephesians 1:7, 1 John2:2, Matthew 28 : 6, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:14, that Grace through repentance and faith to believe that Jesus Christ and accept are born again of the Holy Spirit and therby become Children of God, 1 John 12:13, 3:3-5, James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23, Ephesians 2:8-9

The Church is one true Church universal, comprised of all those who acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. A Belief that scripture commands believers to gather together to devote themselves to prayer, worship & the teaching of the Word. The observance of believers baptism and communion as the ordinanaces established by Jesus Christ, fellowship, service to the body through the devlpoment and use of talents and gifts to outreach to the world. Hebrews 10:24-25, Acts 2: 42-47

The Return of Jesus Christ, a belief and imminent return of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, Acts 1:11, !Thessolonians 4:16-17

A belief in Eternity, the Bodily Ressurrection of the just & unjust, the everlasting joy of the saved and everlasting conscious punishment of the lost John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20: 4-6, 11-15

A belief in the Lords Supper, a gathering of born again believers, walking in fellowship with Jesus Christ
Acts 2: 42-46, 1 Corinthians 11 :23-29

And Prayer, to Pray without ceasing, 1 Thessolonians 5:17

Now I know a great many believe that all religions are alike, my 1st answer would be your correct, they are all manmade, Jesus asks to have a relationship with you, there is a difference, 2nd all belief systems are not alike, they cant be, if all are alike what standards do you live by ? all cant be true ! they cancel each other out, if you take the time to discover, you will find that only Jesus died for the Sinner and rose again He paid the debt in our place, even Satan professed his diety, and God doesnt send people to hell, that was never his intention, it is a deliberate choice for people to not acknowledge God therfore separating themselves from his Salvation {love}, Scripture says that none shall perish if they come to repentance, Jesus came to bridge the Gap between sinful people and God, the gates of HELL are locked on the inside and if you get there your going to have to climb over Jesus to get there, Christians are no different than anyone else not superior to or anything different, however a person believing that Jesus Christ is the ONLY son of God and proclaims that truth is just one beggar telling another where to find Bread and eternity is a Long time my friends

in other words.,"because the bible tells me so."

[2nd_chance]

in other words.,"because the bible tells me so."

That really sticks in your crawl doesn't it bro?

Jesus loves me this I know... (you finish the rest)

[thomashenry]

in other words.,"because the bible tells me so."

SO if I use this Book Literally in every aspect of my life, being diligent as humanly possible in its application, that makes me ?

[powernpain]

The central truth is that God is unable to forgive sin without sacrifice....... so God sacrificed Jesus to Godself as a way to get around this limit on God's ability.


Jesus blood is seen as plenary payment of debt each individual owes toward God due to sins committed.

Since the smallest debt toward God would leave one subject to wrath, and there is no way for anyone to atone for the smallest amount of wrong, a single unforgiven sin leaves everyone consigned to Hell. ( But Jesus has sacrifice our debts and sins)

Forgiving others (Matthew 6:14)
Repentance (2nd Chronicles 7:14, Jeremiah 36:3, Ezekiel 18:27, 33:14-16, Luke 3:3and many other verses already cited)
Church intervention (John 20:23)
The prayers of believers (1st John 5:16)
Confession of sins (1st John 1:9)

Matthew 6:14 (NASB95)
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Ezekiel 18:27 (NASB95)
“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

Judgment is seen as an evaluation of disposition with the totality of one's actions, words, and thoughts considered. Believers are not dealt with any differently than non-believers.

Corinthians 9:24–27

And it does not tell us that hell has anything to do with belief in the Christian religion.

In fact, nowhere in the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) is any connection made between hell and belief.

Most of the references connecting the punishment of hell to the failure to accept the Christian faith come from the Gospel of John.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

This seems pretty clear. But the impression most people have of these verses is based on a mistranslation. One must go back to the original Greek. The Greek word translated “condemned” really means “judged.” In addition, the word translated “believe” really means “to have faith,” which is a much richer idea than the narrow English word “believe.”

I point this out because of all the common errors and mistranslation that take place. You see the decisions get made in the board room. we can listen to whats going on, being said, and understood in the news room, first floor, second floor and so on, but be aware of the lost translations that take place amongst all these individual and diverse people. Upstairs is where the truth is.

I will repeat myself - The central truth is that God is unable to forgive sin without sacrifice....... so God sacrificed Jesus to Godself as a way to get around this limit on God's ability.

I don't doubt your beliefs, I see and hear your faith, but realize to hold onto every written word can lead to mis-understanding. And as you will find there are many different levels of thought and obscure deliveries of Gods message.

Taking a step back can allow us to identify the bigger meaning, the whole truth, we are already forgiven , within our nature we will forgive, we may pass forgiveness onto others, repent, confess, and understand our wrongs, by doing this and accepting this by other God has already bestowed his praise and grace onto us, through his son Jesus we are whole and forgiven.

Fear is what keeps this monstrous, unbiblical view of God alive. To those who still believe it: Have the courage to question your fears. To those who are afraid of it: Let the love in your heart tell you that the real God, who gave you the capacity for that love, is a God of love, not everlasting vengeance. Yes, there is justice, and we will have to account for how we have lived our lives. This is what the Bible says.

But the Bible also says that "God’s mercy endures forever". ( and this trumps all.....its coming straight from the boardroom )

[powernpain]

2nd, I guess my stance is not to say you whether you or right or I am right. I feel its a complex topic to say the least. But if one can sit down and openly discuss then maybe we can walk away with a new understanding, maybe we can alter our perception ( not our belief ). In the end this can't be all bad if something new can be taken away and achieved. ( as for the non- believers...that's a handful in itself....... j/k of course!)

[chickeneater]

O

That really sticks in your crawl doesn't it bro?

Jesus loves me this I know... (you finish the rest)

Perfect Segway into my next point because I was leading into saying how that song is the perfect example of brainwashing for children to constantly sing and recite at vacation bible schools.

"for the bible tells me so"



And then it stops. The kids don't get to ask who wrote it, who revised it, why were chapters left out, why did Christians kill to enforce it etc?


The child is brainwashed to believe whatever is in this book, and nothing else. Bad comes from Satan, good comes from Jesus. End of story.

We become ever closer to a closed off country run by voters who were programmed at an early age to shun science, elect only those who accept Jesus publicly, not knowing politicians utilize this tool to fool the gullible.

We become essentially a western version of Iran or north Korea, only allowed to live our lives according to this book that claims the human history is 6000 years old when carbon dating shows cave drawings 40,000 years old.

Also from a young age we are preached the myth that the founding fathers were christian.

Children are taught to ignore their inner feelings of right and wrong and lose personal responsibility, they can now blame Satan for their sins, and obtain forgiveness thru jesus.

Because the bible tells them so.

Everytime we teach a child to sing that song over and over another child in another country is busy enjoying science experiments and we are blinded to it.

The Christians may think that's a reach, but if they take the time to break it down, well, take me for example; I went to bible schools, spent an hour a week at church, and 50 minutes a day (catholic school) learning Jesus. The bible. I transferred to a public school in 7th grade and was blown away at the science and math. They were way ahead, and I couldn't keep up. But I could sing and quote the bible.


Now a days I'm totally dialed into science, love documentaries, and feel robbed of all the time I could've spent studying math and science, instead I have a plethora of ancient scripts and songs in my head that were developed and revised in a simpler time when the earth was flat in order to control people and give money to the organized sects.

I could've discovered my love for math and science early on, possibly became a scientist, and the country with the most scientists wins, not the one with the most chapels.

So, does it stick in my crawl? Yeah, watching my country be brainwashed like the middle east, yeah I guess it does.

[chickeneater]

SO if I use this Book Literally in every aspect of my life, being diligent as humanly possible in its application, that makes me ?

take a crack at post 61.

[GregariousWolf]

Perfect Segway into my next point because

[thomashenry]

take a crack at post 61.

aside from your sarcasm and skepticism, not to leave out your doubt, just for the sake of arguement, If you were born in the Middle east where Jesus was born lived died and rose again and never heard of Jesus, then I would say your not from the Middle east, to this day unless of course your suppressed from any outside information without the threat of death for being an apostate, now having said that, what is your point, you comparing the 2 Jesus and mohammed ? they dont, Who were the witness to mohammeds claim of allah gving him the koran ? there were no public miraculous signs to certify anything, as opposed to Jesus being seen at Public events after his ressurrection, outside of the mind, islam was spread by warfare early on and even today 'converted by the sword" contrast that with Christianity ! how many original text manuscripts of the original koran are in existence ? when were they written in contrast to Jesus ? the koran says Jesus never died on the cross which was written in the 7th century {the koran }that is, the koran says Jesus was a great prophet and there is no mention whatsoever of islam or mohammed in the Bible ! Whys that ? muslims may sacrifice their life for mohammed but it is based upon nothing that was publicly observable, they could be wrong, contrast that with Jesus & his disciples, again you have to go back to Jesus made himself publicly observable with eyewitnesses

[Brackneyc]

We become ever closer to a closed off country run by voters who were programmed at an early age to shun science, elect only those who accept Jesus publicly, not knowing politicians utilize this tool to fool the gullible.

We become essentially a western version of Iran or north Korea, only allowed to live our lives according to this book that claims the human history is 6000 years old when carbon dating shows cave drawings 40,000 years old.

Also from a young age we are preached the myth that the founding fathers were christian.

Children are taught to ignore their inner feelings of right and wrong and lose personal responsibility, they can now blame Satan for their sins, and obtain forgiveness thru jesus.

What country do you live in? Get out of the house a little more. Things are not even close to what you are portraying.

[2nd_chance]

What country do you live in? Get out of the house a little more. Things are not even close to what you are portraying.

No bro... we are the ones who are brainwashed

[chickeneater]

SO if I use this Book Literally in every aspect of my life, being diligent as humanly possible in its application, that makes me ?

Really?


I think I'm gonna put you in my inspirational list because you my friend have a collection of 200+ women profile friends of the skimpiest bikini pics of the women here i've ever seen.

You've hand picked the hottest women profiles here, and anytime I want to see a plethora of hot females posing in thongs all I have to do is go to your profile. It's just one scantly clad tan toned hotty after another. Thanks bro! Christian hypocrisy at it's finest!

[chickeneater]

aside from your sarcasm and skepticism, not to leave out your doubt, just for the sake of arguement, If you were born in the Middle east where Jesus was born lived died and rose again and never heard of Jesus, then I would say your not from the Middle east, to this day unless of course your suppressed from any outside information without the threat of death for being an apostate, now having said that, what is your point, you comparing the 2 Jesus and mohammed ? they dont, Who were the witness to mohammeds claim of allah gving him the koran ? there were no public miraculous signs to certify anything, as opposed to Jesus being seen at Public events after his ressurrection, outside of the mind, islam was spread by warfare early on and even today 'converted by the sword" contrast that with Christianity ! how many original text manuscripts of the original koran are in existence ? when were they written in contrast to Jesus ? the koran says Jesus never died on the cross which was written in the 7th century {the koran }that is, the koran says Jesus was a great prophet and there is no mention whatsoever of islam or mohammed in the Bible ! Whys that ? muslims may sacrifice their life for mohammed but it is based upon nothing that was publicly observable, they could be wrong, contrast that with Jesus & his disciples, again you have to go back to Jesus made himself publicly observable with eyewitnesses

Not so much christians as a whole, but jesus freaks love to use the words: Skeptics and doubt. I don't have to time to explain why, but in summary they keep those words around to give a negative shine to people who don't beleive what they do, and it gives them a sense of superiority.

Your witness is account of Jesus's resurrection.............that comes from "the bible told you so." So nothing new here.

[chickeneater]

What country do you live in? Get out of the house a little more. Things are not even close to what you are portraying.

Watch religulous by Bill Mahr. It's worse than I portray.

Just one case in point, they spent millions building a "creation" museum in Kentucky to brainwash children away from science.

And I'm rarely in my house. But I'm not here to complain.

[chickeneater]

No bro... we are the ones who are brainwashed

Admission and Acceptence is the first step. It's cool brotha, my freedom was'nt granted overnight. I evolved.

[Sami76]

What country do you live in? Get out of the house a little more. Things are not even close to what you are portraying.

All you have to do is read the Texas GOP's current platform to realize Chickeneater's fears aren't all that unfounded.

[thomashenry]

Really?


I think I'm gonna put you in my inspirational list because you my friend have a collection of 200+ women profile friends of the skimpiest bikini pics of the women here i've ever seen. You've hand picked the hottest women profiles here, and anytime I want to see a plethora of hot females posing in thongs all I have to do is go to your profile. It's just one scantly clad tan toned hotty after another. Thanks bro! Christian hypocrisy at it's finest!

What Hypocrisy ? a Bodybuilding website with Women in Bikinis, who would have thought that, maybe burkas would have been more appropriate, or burlap is more to your liking ! nice twist with the personal attacks but if that is the level you enjoy I`m good with it, I can tell you that among being a self professed hypocrite, liar among other things, I can tell you that my Wife is of Scillian descent, ya know that Mediterranean look, she is smoking hot and I have always liked ATTRACTIVE women, always will, I like Ferraris also, and one day hope to own one, would love to have a substantial amount of money , not only to help my Family but also to indulge in some guilty pleasures as well ! I enjoy good food too, nice Clothes, a nice home with quality Furniture, have 5 grandkids and I`d like to give them the best Education MONEY can buy and to allow them to flourish in a great nation, I also have charcter & dignity most of the time I am no different than anyone else I assume, I have pride, ego Lust, laziness, selfishness, I also have a some guy friends who I would kill to look like them, they call it envy, so I guesss your right I am a hypocrite, just like most, hope that cleared some things up for you, I still believe that JESUS CHRIST is the Living God who redeems Souls and promises everlasting Life------------and as bad as it may sound after that a part of me the {car salesman} part, if I encounter customers such as yourself, I wouldn`t hesitate to rip your head off {thats slang in my business to make as much as legally possible}, sorry forgive me would you

[GregariousWolf]

What Hypocrisy ? a Bodybuilding website with Women in Bikinis, who would have thought that, maybe burkas would have been more appropriate, or burlap is more to your liking ! nice twist with the personal attacks but if that is the level you enjoy I`m good with it, I can tell you that among being a self professed hypocrite, liar among other things, I can tell you that my Wife is of Scillian descent, ya know that Mediterranean look, she is smoking hot and I have always liked ATTRACTIVE women, always will, I like Ferraris also, and one day hope to own one, would love to have a substantial amount of money , not only to help my Family but also to indulge in some guilty pleasures as well ! I enjoy good food too, nice Clothes, a nice home with quality Furniture, have 5 grandkids and I`d like to give them the best Education MONEY can buy and to allow them to flourish in a great nation, I also have charcter & dignity most of the time I am no different than anyone else I assume, I have pride, ego Lust, laziness, selfishness, I also have a some guy friends who I would kill to look like them, they call it envy, so I guesss your right I am a hypocrite, just like most, hope that cleared some things up for you, I still believe that JESUS CHRIST is the Livning God who redeems Souls and promises everlasting Life

If you as a Christian can enjoy life without hypocrisy, hopefully I as a non believer can without hypocrisy have morals and ethics.

Must I believe in life after death to have some character and dignity?

[bamazav]

O

Perfect Segway into my next point because I was leading into saying how that song is the perfect example of brainwashing for children to constantly sing and recite at vacation bible schools.

"for the bible tells me so"



And then it stops. The kids don't get to ask who wrote it, who revised it, why were chapters left out, why did Christians kill to enforce it etc?


The child is brainwashed to believe whatever is in this book, and nothing else. Bad comes from Satan, good comes from Jesus. End of story.

We become ever closer to a closed off country run by voters who were programmed at an early age to shun science, elect only those who accept Jesus publicly, not knowing politicians utilize this tool to fool the gullible.

We become essentially a western version of Iran or north Korea, only allowed to live our lives according to this book that claims the human history is 6000 years old when carbon dating shows cave drawings 40,000 years old.

Also from a young age we are preached the myth that the founding fathers were christian.

Children are taught to ignore their inner feelings of right and wrong and lose personal responsibility, they can now blame Satan for their sins, and obtain forgiveness thru jesus.

Because the bible tells them so.

Everytime we teach a child to sing that song over and over another child in another country is busy enjoying science experiments and we are blinded to it.

The Christians may think that's a reach, but if they take the time to break it down, well, take me for example; I went to bible schools, spent an hour a week at church, and 50 minutes a day (catholic school) learning Jesus. The bible. I transferred to a public school in 7th grade and was blown away at the science and math. They were way ahead, and I couldn't keep up. But I could sing and quote the bible.


Now a days I'm totally dialed into science, love documentaries, and feel robbed of all the time I could've spent studying math and science, instead I have a plethora of ancient scripts and songs in my head that were developed and revised in a simpler time when the earth was flat in order to control people and give money to the organized sects.

I could've discovered my love for math and science early on, possibly became a scientist, and the country with the most scientists wins, not the one with the most chapels.

So, does it stick in my crawl? Yeah, watching my country be brainwashed like the middle east, yeah I guess it does.

This entire line of reasoning bothers me. Because I am a Christian I am automatically an idiot? My education amounts for nothing because of my faith? I will admit that my BA in Psychology from a State school did not get me too far in the real world, but that has more to do with economics, the nature of the degree, the job market and my own personal ambitions than it does with my faith. Sorry you are ticked because you had a period of life that you did not study math and science as you would like, that is sad, but the bigger question is would you really have spent that time studying those topics? Neither of us really know. I was never

taught to ignore their inner feelings of right and wrong and lose personal responsibility

Far from it, I was taught to go to original sources and not take anyone's word for something. I was taught to not just learn the difference between right and wrong but to strive to live justly and rightly. I love to research and study, my wife thinks too much. Your statement is a crass and unfair generalization with no basis on fact. (BTW I currently have a Master's degree and hope to begin working on a Phd in the near future. I am often selfish and self centered and use bad grammar, but I am far from ignorant.)

The generalizations about Christianity, faith and even US history are also sad and unfair. Were the men at the time of the writing influenced by religion? You bet they were, just as you, at the time of writing your most recent post, were influenced by your own religious thought. Were they all Christians? No! We do have to remember that all of them were either young adults or children during the Great Awakening of the 1730's. Yes they were influenced, but they were not all blind robots, converted by the evil Wesley's, Whitefield and Edwards. Read Franklin and you will find that he was a respecter of religion, even a friend of Whitefield's, but never professed to be an "evangelical believer." That said, it is unfair to go too heavily in either direction, to say that everyone was a Christian or that none of them were.

My point, as I made much much earlier in this thread, is that we are all influenced by religion and faith in some way. You put it in self and science, I put my faith and trust in God by and through Jesus Christ. Just because you do not have a big "Church of Chickeneater" building and a multimillion dollar organization doesn't mean you don't have faith or religion. The Church building I am currently sitting in doesn't make me a Christian any more than coming to BB dot com makes me a bodybuilder. It is all a matter of faith and belief. We, just like the founders of our nation, are all influenced by religious thought in our lives on a daily basis. Yours, in my opinion, leans more towards humanism and self determination, mine is Christian. We agree that we both think the other person is wrong in their perspective. I, for one, can agree to disagree, and still respect the person.

I will again submit that if you and I were to sit down and have a discussion of our lives, thoughts and beliefs, we would find we have more in common than not. I hear your anger and bitterness toward Christianity, I am sorry you feel so hurt by other's actions based upon their faith. The Jesus I follow does not teach in any way the tearing down of others but the building up. Sadly, however, we all struggle with self and at times I put myself before others. That is wrong and not at all what God desires of me or any who profess him.

[thomashenry]

If you as a Christian can enjoy life without hypocrisy, hopefully I as a non believer can without hypocrisy have morals and ethics.

Must I believe in life after death to have some character and dignity?

where did I indicate I WASNT a Hypocrite ?, I am as I said among other things, the difference is I guess That I do believe in Jesus, nothing more nothing less, My Choice and although I am a miserable FAILURE with my Character, Dignity morals and Ethics, I get back up with the same belief that God Forgives me if that makes sense ! & where or whom else Promises Life Eternally after Death by simply believing, other than Jesus ? Look I am not sporting a 200 IQ and don`t profess to be, I believe in Jesus Christ, plain & Simple, my Choice, again, some think thats foolish or naive, OK thats there opinion not mine, I go to Church to learn more about the Word, I really attempt to conduct myself in a manner that makes people comfortable around me, Do I FAIL, EVERYDAY, I am sorry and guilty for that, I try I really do, I say & do things that are absolutely contrary to what I may say, Again I am sorry, it all boils down to ME believing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior nothing else, in my heart of hearts I believe in him and always come back to him & I Don`t have all the answers, even when I think I do

[chickeneater]

What Hypocrisy ? a Bodybuilding website with Women in Bikinis, who would have thought that, maybe burkas would have been more appropriate, or burlap is more to your liking ! nice twist with the personal attacks but if that is the level you enjoy I`m good with it,

no more personal than you calling me a skeptic, thats full of sarcasm and doubt. All of which are untrue. I can't be skeptical of something I'm not even considering is real. I can't have doubt when no part of me thinks the bible is anything more than the equivalent of greek mythology, and theres no sarcasm in my tone when I speak of brainwashing. Although I can't tell for certain how others take it in print much like you can't smell your own breath.

As far as calling you a hypocrite, I did say christian hypocrisy at it's finest as to imply that in my observations this is normal. I'm not specifically calling you a bad guy, I'm pointing out the human phenomena of saying one thing and doing another is very strong among religious extremists.

Your particular post I quoted had a "holier than thou" tone to it, and your signature is full of bible verses and fearmongering in capital letters. You admitted to being a devout unwavering christian. So, I checked out your profile, and the scantly clad beautiful women stick out like a sore thumb.

As a guy, especially one who appreciates a fit female body like yourself, I was thrilled. And if your wife or significant other is ok with it, more power to ya. But as for your holier than thou demeanor on this board,
it's pure christian extremist hypocrisy. (sorry to op) but equally extremely amusing.

I can tell you that among being a self professed hypocrite, liar among other things,

cool

I can tell you that my Wife is of Scillian descent,

mine too

ya know that Mediterranean look, she is smoking hot and I have always liked ATTRACTIVE women, always will, I like Ferraris also, and one day hope to own one, would love to have a substantial amount of money , not only to help my Family but also to indulge in some guilty pleasures as well ! I enjoy good food too, nice Clothes, a nice home with quality Furniture, have 5 grandkids and I`d like to give them the best Education MONEY can buy and to allow them to flourish in a great nation, I also have charcter & dignity most of the time I am no different than anyone else I assume,

You're a guys guy, you seem like a cool dude to have to work with in an office or garage. All's good!

I have pride, ego Lust, laziness, selfishness,

ugh, reminded of those words used in sermons, wanna gag.

I also have a some guy friends who I would kill to look like them, they call it envy, so I guesss your right I am a hypocrite, just like most, hope that cleared some things up for you,

perhaps, i dunno. You're definitely not the chap I thought I was discussing with as of yesterday. You have a cool side too it appears. But you keep falling into regurgitating all that sermon vocabulary yuck!

I still believe that JESUS CHRIST is the Living God who redeems Souls and promises everlasting Life------------

ugh, here we go... stay tuned for my response to your last post.

and as bad as it may sound after that a part of me the {car salesman} part, if I encounter customers such as yourself, I wouldn`t hesitate to rip your head off {thats slang in my business to make as much as legally possible}, sorry forgive me would you

no apology necessary. I'm more interested in why when you put your holier than thou mantra on display for everyone here on a high traffic popular forum and you're called out on an inconsistency, that you go apesiht on that member, intsead of taking an objective look at how you may be coming across here.

You had to admit the hypocrisy your self. It was overwhelming. But why take your anger out on me? You put those fearmongering quotes up there in your sig, you posted holier than thou posts, but your profile, the your own personal advertisement of what others see you as here is cluttered with beautiful tan female skin that you clicked on. I did'nt do that to you, but I revealed the inconvienent inconsistency. For that, should I apologize? meh, I dunno.

[chickeneater]

damn, I knew it was spelled differently. good call out lol.

[chickeneater]

All you have to do is read the Texas GOP's current platform to realize Chickeneater's fears aren't all that unfounded.

Have to blame Karl Rove. He organized the grass roots efforts to synchronize republicans and christianity so that a vote for Bush was a vote for Jesus. Brilliant.

[chickeneater]

If you as a Christian can enjoy life without hypocrisy, hopefully I as a non believer can without hypocrisy have morals and ethics.

Must I believe in life after death to have some character and dignity?

dead on, pretty much sums up what I'm about to post.