Proper Pre and Post work out meal

[ModestD]

Hey guys,

I'm new to all this and I'd greatly appreciate some feedback. My goals are to drop my weight down to around 220lbs while gaining muscle. I'm currently at 260lbs 6'5"

9:30am - (all blended)
1 scoop chocolate whey
1 banana
strawberrys
1/2 cup plain yogurt
1 cup %2 milk


-----------
471 calories
36g protein
10g fat

9:45am 20 minute run + 10-15 minute weight routine.



10:30am -
1 grapefruit
1 cup of shredded wheat
1 cup %2 milk
1 centrum multivitamin

plus another protein drink subbing milk for soy milk

1 scoop chocolate whey
1 banana
large strawberrys
1/2 cup plain yogurt
1 cup soy milk

------------
838 calories
52g protein
20g fat


Being a newb I'd like to know if i'm on the right track to proper weight lose/muscle gain, are those numbers sufficient, or is that to much/not enough for my body size (260lbs, 6foot5). Also, I've being browsing the forum, which numbers really matter when it comes down to it, it's it protein, fat and carbs, or protein, fat and calories?

Thanks guys!

[ErikTheElectric]

Read the thread title.

1) read stickies
2) calculate maintenance
3) eat -500 under that
4) there are no "proper" or "improper" meals to eat before or after you workout. It all cones down to preference and your caloric needs for the day.

[dragonman6]

Its going to be tough to lose weight while gaining a significant amount of msucle. I suggest choosing one over the other. If your first goal is fat loss, I suggest calculating your maintenance (which ill show you how to do) and then eating 600-800 calories below that. Keep your protein high, about 1g per pound of body weight. Don't worry about fat and carbs, just make sure to hit your caloric target on a daily basis.

This is what I do to figure out maintenance...its only a rough estimate so you would have to adjust it according to your weekly weight changes

1.) do BWx11 (this will be a rough estimate of your BMR as if you were laying in bed all day)
2.) multiply above number by 1.2 (this will give you maintenance just for being alive and doing regular day things)
3.) add in calories from cardio and/or weightlifting
4.) subtract 600-800 from that number and eat that.

Also, I recommend lifting weights before hitting cardio, that way you can focus more energy on lifting heavy.

good luck brah

[PBateman2]

Read the thread title.

1) read stickies
2) calculate maintenance
3) eat -500 under that
4) there are no "proper" or "improper" meals to eat before or after you workout. It all cones down to preference and your caloric needs for the day.

This.

Start here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981

[FitnessCPA]

Meal frequency, meal timing, as well as pre/post-workout nutrition are a function of personal preference. Eat one meal a day or eat 10 meals a day. What's important is energy balance - the right amount of calories - and macro/micronutrient sufficiency.

Read the sticky on calculating macros and calories. Consume foods to meet those macros and calories, as well as ensure micronutrient sufficiency.

As for meal timing and pre/post-workout nutrition, do whatever you want. Whatever gives you the most intensity in the gym is the best method. For me, it happens to be training fasted in the morning. So for me, my pre-workout is dinner at around 6 p.m. the night before.

[snorkelman]

A 260 pound dude eating 800 calories a day? That is what I would call a very low calorie diet (VLCD). In general, VLCDs will result in loss of both muscle and fat. You can minimize muscle loss on such a diet by doing two things: 1. ingesting adequate protein, and 2. engaging in resistance training (weightlifting).

[-Michelangelo-]

I agree that for most dieters following a normal diet plan, pre n post nutrition is nonsense, but why do people on this site apply this knowledge to every poor soul who asks about pre/post nutrition? There ARE circumstances when meal timing IS beneficial.

In Lyle McDonald's books he consistently advises a specific pre workout nutrition makeup....

Even here.... Martin from leangains:

"Leigh Peele: You brought up pre/post-workout nutrition. Is there a specific recommendation you have for these meals? Do you stick to any sort of carb/protein ratio? I am specifically curious as to the pre-workout guidelines.

Martin Berkhan: In an ideal situation, I’d like to place approximately 80% of the day’s total calorie intake in the post workout window. As a consequence, the pre-workout meal is often the “fast breaker” on workout days. For the pre-workout meal I usually recommend a meal consisting of an equal carb/protein ratio – for example, 50-60 g carbs, 40-50 g protein and some fat for taste (about 500 kcal total). The goal of this meal is to provide satisfaction, provide enough carbs to fuel the workout, and maximize protein synthesis for the workout (another reason for the high protein intake is to induce satiety).

One of my typical pre-workout meals may consist of 8 oz lean meat with veggies or potatoes and a large apple. A bit of fructose might mediate the effect of the post-workout feeding, since liver glycogen is beneficial to hormones involved in anabolism, therefore the fruit. Keep in mind that the pre-workout meal is dependent on training volume, but I’ve found that these general guidelines work for most people doing moderate volume resistance training (about 10-15 sets of 6-10 reps, per workout, in total). Athletes and others, subjecting themselves to a greater training load than the average weight trainer, require different pre-workout guidelines."


http://www.leighpeele.com/martin-ber...ting-interview


So wtf are people advocating the stickies ALL the time for??? Meal timing is stupid in MOST situations, but for SOME dieters, especially those following carb cycling programs, CKDs, TKD's and fasting programs, even fasted workouts, meal timing MATTERS!

Anyones thoughts on this??

[cynice]

Your eating almost 500 calories before your run? Wow thats amazing i have to wait atleast an hour after i eat to workout

[MAX.MAREK]

LOL at those stickies LOL

[rhyno09]

Everyone above hit on very important points, one that looks like it was missed is that I would make sure you get some BCAA for pre workout/pre cardio. This helps maintain whatever muscle you have when doing cardio...the more muscles you have the more calories a person typically will burn.

As far as diet, here are some basics...figure out your daily caloric intake and what percentages of that should be fat, carbs, protein. Eat clean and eat at least every 3 hours.

Taper your carbs as you get closer to bed.

Comlex carbs all day long, (only time you will want simple carbs/sugars is immediately after a workout).

Eat whole foods as much as possible, keep shakes for around workouts and in a pinch.

If you use protein powders, use Casein (or a slow release protein) through out the day and only use Whey before/after your workout.

Just my 2 cents, but there are some basics to start out with

[-Michelangelo-]

LOL at those stickies LOL

Second this

[JamesPhoenix]

OP, here's the general idea, as far as I've learned.

Weight is a product of calories in/calories out. Find your basal metabolism rate (BMR) from lean body mass (LBM). Add 300-500 calories to bulk, subtract that many to cut.

Protein should be around 1.5x your LBM, give or take - this is for both bulking and cutting. Carbohydrates should be around your protein level for a bulk and about 2/3 for a cut - this is where you cut calories when cutting weight. Fats are essential for processes within your body, but should be a leftover as far as your macronutrients are concerned.

Keto is another matter entirely, where your body transfers to burning fats instead of carbohydrates as its primary fuel source. Awful process to transition to and pretty much a death sentence for type 1 diabetics, but it does seem to be really efficient at cutting fat fast. Also, take caffeine, CLA, and fish oil.

With regard to pre- and post-workout meals, it's up to you. Do you NEED to have anything in particular? No. However, you'll find (in my opinion) the ordeal much easier and no less effective by taking carbos before a workout with some protein (maybe 40 g carbos and 20 g protein) with protein and carbos after (I take 64 g protein and 30 g carbos post-workout). It may not be absolutely necessary, barring a debate about the anabolic window being real, but there's still no reason NOT to have a post-workout shake.

[WonderPug]

one that looks like it was missed is that I would make sure you get some BCAA for pre workout/pre cardio...As far as diet, here are some basics...Eat clean and eat at least every 3 hours...Taper your carbs as you get closer to bed...Comlex carbs all day long, (only time you will want simple carbs/sugars is immediately after a workout)....If you use protein powders, use Casein (or a slow release protein) through out the day and only use Whey before/after your workout

Now that's some really epic nonsense.

[JamesPhoenix]

Now that's some really epic nonsense.

How so? Perhaps some of it isn't absolutely necessary, and some admitted broscience makes things harder than they need be, but I see no reason why this would be counter-effective.

[WonderPug]

How so? Perhaps some of it isn't absolutely necessary, and some admitted broscience makes things harder than they need be, but I see no reason why this would be counter-effective.

The poster's recommendations will not prevent progress, but his recommendations make as much sense as saying you should wear a blue shirt when working chest and a gray shirt when working back.

In other words, the poster's recommendations will just add cost, complexity, inconvenience, reduced pleasure, increased anxiety and a host of other negatives without adding any benefits in terms of bodyweight or composition.

[JamesPhoenix]

The poster's recommendations will not prevent progress, but his recommendations make as much sense as saying you should wear a blue shirt when working chest and a gray shirt when working back.

Lol. My point is, simply because something isn't 100 per cent necessary, doesn't mean doing so is without value, whether to create discipline in dieting at all or to give a starting point for further knowledge.

[WonderPug]

Lol. My point is, simply because something isn't 100 per cent necessary, doesn't mean doing so is without value, whether to create discipline in dieting at all or to give a starting point for further knowledge.

Let me try to explain it again:

Telling people to do things that bring functionally no value in terms of bodyweight or composition, but make one's diet more arbitrarily restrictive, unpleasant and more expensive, is just plain asinine.

Now do you get it?

[Aqpz]

ITT: broscience


all that matters is at the end of the day you got your required calories and macros (either cutting gaining or maintaining) dont make this harder then it needs to be. this is a lifestyle change and you will be doing this for the rest of your life, so why not jut keep it simple?

[JamesPhoenix]

Let me try to explain it again:

Telling people to do things that bring functionally no value in terms of bodyweight or composition, but make one's diet more arbitrarily restrictive, unpleasant and more expensive, is just plain asinine.

Now do you get it?

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that there's no value in terms of bodyweight/composition. I disagree, though, that teaching basics at a stricter level has no value in any form. I think the stricter proposal helps to inculcate a sense in dietary discipline that can then be expanded to a more accurate nutritional basis later on.

Dieting takes much more focus than simply hitting the gym every day, and in my opinion a person is more likely to get results from sticking to an unnecessarily difficult diet than being given what they may see as free reign to eat whatever they want. That's my argument.

[WonderPug]

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that there's no value in terms of bodyweight/composition. I disagree, though, that teaching basics at a stricter level has no value in any form. I think the stricter proposal helps to inculcate a sense in dietary discipline that can then be expanded to a more accurate nutritional basis later on.

Do you think it pays to tell people to do arbitrary and useless things while misinforming them that those arbitrary and useless things are necessary or at least useful? Really???

[JamesPhoenix]

Do you think it pays to tell people to do arbitrary and useless things while misinforming them that those arbitrary and useless things are necessary or at least useful? Really???

Yes, I think if a person has shown a complete inability to find answers for themselves, particularly when they're already reading this board and seemingly learning little, they are probably more likely to make progress by being told precisely what to do, at least at first. I'm not saying that they should be told that doing so is necessary - far from it. I'm saying that, as some here do, simply replying "IIFYM" is not helpful.

It seems a better phrasing of your comment would be that "I think it pays to tell people to do arbitrary and useless (though not counterproductive) things while informing them of the underlying principles as to why doing so is one of theoretically infinite dieting plans; thus, it is useful to do Diet Plan A, but once you understand why that is, not a simple 'apples are good, ice cream is bad,' there is an understanding upon which to build a more individualized approach."

[rand18m]

One of my typical pre-workout meals may consist of 8 oz lean meat with veggies or potatoes and a large apple. A bit of fructose might mediate the effect of the post-workout feeding, since liver glycogen is beneficial to hormones involved in anabolism, therefore the fruit. Keep in mind that the pre-workout meal is dependent on training volume, but I’ve found that these general guidelines work for most people doing moderate volume resistance training (about 10-15 sets of 6-10 reps, per workout, in total). Athletes and others, subjecting themselves to a greater training load than the average weight trainer, require different pre-workout guidelines."

http://www.leighpeele.com/martin-ber...ting-interview

WTF is that? Seriously?
Is fruit beneficial to IGF-1 synthesis? How on earth does he come up with that, inquiring minds would like to know!

[WonderPug]

Yes, I think if a person has shown a complete inability to find answers for themselves, particularly when they're already reading this board and seemingly learning little, they are probably more likely to make progress by being told precisely what to do, at least at first.

So you're advocating telling people incorrect information (such as that contained in the quoted part of rhyno09's post) because they have been unable to find the correct information themselves?

[JamesPhoenix]

So you're advocating telling people incorrect information (such as that contained in the quoted part of rhyno09's post) because they have been unable to find the correct information themselves?

Closer. I'm advocating giving "incorrect" information a qualified acceptance; that is, endorsing the strict diet, while also delineating the principles making such a rigid diet acceptable. It means repeating information available in stickies and other places to point out that there's nothing wrong with an unnecessarily strict diet; however, if one is to follow the established nutritional principles, they could easily alter it without negative consequence.

I think I should point out that, as I'm sure you know, much of the broscience on this board is repeated as if it were bodybuilding law. I'd like to tweak that, pointing out that while it's certainly one option to follow their rules as one sees fit (I for one find myself more likely to stick to the disciplined regimen), it's not absolutely necessary in terms of scientific fact.

[rand18m]

I agree that for most dieters following a normal diet plan, pre n post nutrition is nonsense, but why do people on this site apply this knowledge to every poor soul who asks about pre/post nutrition? There ARE circumstances when meal timing IS beneficial.

In Lyle McDonald's books he consistently advises a specific pre workout nutrition makeup....

Even here.... Martin from leangains:

"Leigh Peele: You brought up pre/post-workout nutrition. Is there a specific recommendation you have for these meals? Do you stick to any sort of carb/protein ratio? I am specifically curious as to the pre-workout guidelines.

Martin Berkhan: In an ideal situation, I’d like to place approximately 80% of the day’s total calorie intake in the post workout window. As a consequence, the pre-workout meal is often the “fast breaker” on workout days. For the pre-workout meal I usually recommend a meal consisting of an equal carb/protein ratio – for example, 50-60 g carbs, 40-50 g protein and some fat for taste (about 500 kcal total). The goal of this meal is to provide satisfaction, provide enough carbs to fuel the workout, and maximize protein synthesis for the workout (another reason for the high protein intake is to induce satiety).

One of my typical pre-workout meals may consist of 8 oz lean meat with veggies or potatoes and a large apple. A bit of fructose might mediate the effect of the post-workout feeding, since liver glycogen is beneficial to hormones involved in anabolism, therefore the fruit. Keep in mind that the pre-workout meal is dependent on training volume, but I’ve found that these general guidelines work for most people doing moderate volume resistance training (about 10-15 sets of 6-10 reps, per workout, in total). Athletes and others, subjecting themselves to a greater training load than the average weight trainer, require different pre-workout guidelines."


http://www.leighpeele.com/martin-ber...ting-interview


So wtf are people advocating the stickies ALL the time for??? Meal timing is stupid in MOST situations, but for SOME dieters, especially those following carb cycling programs, CKDs, TKD's and fasting programs, even fasted workouts, meal timing MATTERS!

Anyones thoughts on this??

Nutrient timing can be beneficial in terms of performance, nobody disagrees with that! The point you are missing is that in terms of body composition there is little evidence that it's beneficial at all, unless that's related to performance, So therefore, until better information comes about, it's a matter of personal preference as is ones interest in performance. AA's point is, that depending on when you workout, you likely have adequate substrate regardless from the food one has been eating throughout the day. Early morning workouts are different, at least in the fact you could be working out fasted, which some people prefer.

So the reason it's pointed out to many to learn the basics, is because they have been tricked into thinking that it's necessary to the point that they obsess over their pre and post nutrition for no reason at all. That trickery typically comes from folks who sell products that are purported to give specific benefits if ingested at certain intervals throughout the day, if there is benefit, it's likely minimal at best.

[WonderPug]

So you're advocating telling people incorrect information (such as that contained in the quoted part of rhyno09's post) because they have been unable to find the correct information themselves?

Closer. I'm advocating giving "incorrect" information a qualified acceptance; that is, endorsing the strict diet, while also delineating the principles making such a rigid diet acceptable.

Wow. Just wow.

[snorkelman]

... in my opinion a person is more likely to get results from sticking to an unnecessarily difficult diet than being given what they may see as free reign to eat whatever they want. That's my argument.

It seems a better phrasing of your comment would be that "I think it pays to tell people to do arbitrary and useless (though not counterproductive) things while informing them of the underlying principles as to why doing so is one of theoretically infinite dieting plans...."

One would think that as you type that stuff you might realize what you are saying. I suspect that you are a personal trainer with clients, right?

[-Michelangelo-]

Nutrient timing can be beneficial in terms of performance, nobody disagrees with that! The point you are missing is that in terms of body composition there is little evidence that it's beneficial at all, unless that's related to performance, So therefore, until better information comes about, it's a matter of personal preference as is ones interest in performance. AA's point is, that depending on when you workout, you likely have adequate substrate regardless from the food one has been eating throughout the day. Early morning workouts are different, at least in the fact you could be working out fasted, which some people prefer.

So the reason it's pointed out to many to learn the basics, is because they have been tricked into thinking that it's necessary to the point that they obsess over their pre and post nutrition for no reason at all. That trickery typically comes from folks who sell products that are purported to give specific benefits if ingested at certain intervals throughout the day, if there is benefit, it's likely minimal at best.

Did u read the info from that link at all? Like I said, for the vast majority of people pre/post nutrition is pointless but in certain circumstances it is beneficial. And not just for performance. READ the interview and stop regurgitating the stickies facts. Regurgitate something from an actual publication.

Here is Martin AGAIN on how proper pre and post nutrition may have body composition benefits:

"...This leaves eight hours as your eating window, in which myself and most of my clients, eat three meals, leaving room for proper pre – and post workout nutrition. I should note that I cycle calorie intake depending on where the current priority lies (fat loss, recomposition or lean mass gain). However, regardless of goals, the absolute majority of the day’s calorie intake is to be ingested in the post workout window. In my experience, this may have a nutrient partitioning effect which makes it possible to gain, or maintain, muscle even on a weekly calorie deficit, or when dieting to very low bodyfat levels."

Let me say again, for SOME dieters there are benefits. For general dieters there are none. So my gripe is with people applying sticky forum advice to ALL people.

[JamesPhoenix]

One would think that as you type that stuff you might realize what you are saying. I suspect that you are a personal trainer with clients, right?

I'm not. I just realize based on the questions some people ask that they're too lazy to dedicate themselves and/or too stupid to do some basic research; besides, I don't like WonderPug's tone.

[rand18m]

Did u read the info from that link at all? Like I said, for the vast majority of people pre/post nutrition is pointless but in certain circumstances it is beneficial. And not just for performance. READ the interview and stop regurgitating the stickies facts. Regurgitate something from an actual publication.

Here is Martin AGAIN on how proper pre and post nutrition may have body composition benefits:

"...This leaves eight hours as your eating window, in which myself and most of my clients, eat three meals, leaving room for proper pre – and post workout nutrition. I should note that I cycle calorie intake depending on where the current priority lies (fat loss, recomposition or lean mass gain). However, regardless of goals, the absolute majority of the day’s calorie intake is to be ingested in the post workout window. In my experience, this may have a nutrient partitioning effect which makes it possible to gain, or maintain, muscle even on a weekly calorie deficit, or when dieting to very low bodyfat levels."

Let me say again, for SOME dieters there are benefits. For general dieters there are none. So my gripe is with people applying sticky forum advice to ALL people.

You asked why many are advised to begin learning the basics from the stickies, I was attempting to answer your question. I understood you said SOME dieters etc.

The vast majority that come here and ask questions are absolute beginners and I would think you could agree that basic knowledge about composing a diet is something that should be advised to such a group.

You may follow leangains and that theory may work for you, but it's still anecdotal, (as bolded above), for the most part and therefore not something I'm willing to advise someone to use, however I'm sure it works for many. Being a person who ate one meal a day for years, it might interest me one day!

My comments on nutrient timing are correct in my opinion and until the evidence shows more conclusively that such timing greatly effects MPS and body composition, I will still leave it to personal preference. Often I drink a shake or eat a meal post workout because it makes me feel better, and usually it's a long time after my workout before I eat a meal. Again, personal preference! I hope this answers your question because here is your quote. "Anyones thoughts on this??