I don't know what plan is best for me. Any advice?

[Ross_the_Reaper]

My goal is to bulk up a little, cut a lot and build strength. Several months ago I bought Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength book. Unfortunately, I slacked for a couple months and now I'm a little weaker than I was before. As a result, I figured it's best that I start from scratch - so that's just what I did. Yesterday was day one for me and this is what it looked like based on Mark's instructions.

For each excersize I started with the bar and added 20 lbs for each set of 5 reps untill my form was slightly compromised by the weight. I then did 3x5 sets (dead lift 1x5) using that weight and that was the end of that excersize.

Squats 3x5 165 lbs
Bench press 3x5 125 lbs
Dead lift 1x5 195 lbs

I weigh 147 lbs.

My workout days are Mon, Wed and Fri: however, I want to go extremely light with more reps on Tue and Thur to rest instead of doing nothing. Sat and Sun are my true resting days.

My doubt stems from what my cousin told me concerning my program. I'll note that he began lifing weights long before me and has a body to show for it. He said that I won't make any progress with my program because I'm not doing enough reps and I'm not targeting on individual body groups for each day. He also insists that squating 3 days a week is a bad idea because I'm giving myself enough time to rest; there is no way I'm cutting down on my favorite excersize. He also told me to not use the free weights because I can lift more otherwise and I'll gain more results, but I don't want to tell people I can squat 200 lbs when I can only do 165 lbs. He gets a lttle mad that I tell him that Mark was a well-reputed body builder and he is currently one of the best personal trainers in the world. I guess I should take advice from the guy who played football in highschool.

But I just have to know, is he right? And should I change my plan? If so, what to change?

[litulgsis]

Both training programs have their strong points. It sounds like Mark's program is some variation of the 5x5 program (explained in this article bodybuilding.com/fun/5-best-bodybuilding-programs.htm). This type of program, however, may not be the best for someone new to bodybuilding, so you need to gauge how your body is reacting to the program and if you're getting enough recovery time.

As for your cousin's thoughts, a few comments:
1. The comment about you not making progress with that program is bull****. The program you're using does need some tweaking, but if you're lifting consistently and eating well, you will see results.
2. Squatting 3 days a week would normally be over-training, but with the number of reps and the number of sets you're doing (unless you're doing more than 3-5 sets of 5 reps only), you should be fine as long as you're taking in a good amount of protein. Plus, working legs releases the most growth hormones of all the muscle groups, so it should help.
3. The number of reps you are doing is fine. There are different rep ranges depending upon what your goals are. Your goal, you said, was to gain a lot of strength and mass. To do this, you generally want to lower the number of reps you do and increase the weight.
4. The comment about not using free weights because you can "lift more otherwise" is very very very stupid (not trying to offend you or your relative, but that is crazy talk). You should use a mixture of free weights, cables, and machines. Each have their own benefits, and all should be utilized. I personally prefer free weights to machines, but I use both. I like free weights especially because of the fact that you are forced to use your own body's stabilizers to control the weight and the motion. This can lead to great gains as long as you are concentrating on proper form.

As for changing your routine, try taking a look at the article link I posted above and maybe adding in a couple of the exercises it talks about. Or you could do the workout you listed above on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and then on Tuesday and Thursday you could work arms, abs, upper back, and lower legs (which is what seems to be lacking in the current program).

Whatever you decide, good luck man.

[Ross_the_Reaper]

@ litulgsis

Thanks for your input. I agree that my program needs tweaking, and I take no offence concerning what was said about free weight vs machine. I personally like to rely on my own strengh which is why I love the free weights. I also don't like to wear gloves because I want to strengthen my grip, I don't wear belts and when I do squats I don't use the neck pad. I like to get the most of my workout out spoiling myself. So instead of using all of these items, I focus on proper technique and so I ensure that I never have to use them. So far so good. However, I may invest in a best when I begin to lift heavier weight. Again, thanks for your input.

[Ross_the_Reaper]

Todays workout. (back, biceps, lower legs, abs) Tue/Thur are light workouts, but I think I might've over done it.

1. Rear dealts 3x10 55 lbs (cable) Biceps & back
2. Bicep Curls 3x10 35 lbs (cable)
3. Shrugs 3x10 100 lbs (free) Back & forearms
4. Calf raises 3x10 100 lbs (free) Calfs & forearms
5. Ab crounches 3x12 55 lbs (cable) - anything heavier leads to a painful contraction

My focus on Thursday will be chest, triceps, and lower legs (no abs unless anyone can convince me that I should; I heard that if I over-work them I wont see much results)

Remember, the core of my workout is Rippetoe's 3 day program. Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but is it a good idea to add light, secondary excersizes on my rest days?

Tomorrows workout includes squats, millitary presses and power cleans.

[Hut*Hut]

urgh. this place needs decent stickies.

[litulgsis]

Remember, the core of my workout is Rippetoe's 3 day program. Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but is it a good idea to add light, secondary excersizes on my rest days?

If by rest days you're referring to your actual rest days on the weekend, then no. Your body needs those days to just rest and recover the muscle you've torn down during the week. But if you're talking about tuesdays and thursdays, then yeah no reason not to do some lighter training

[Ross_the_Reaper]

Yes. I only meant Tuesdays and Thurdays for light workouts. Saturday and Sunday are my true resting days.

On another note, I decided to reset my program and start from scratch because slacked of for a couple months. My squat is now at 165 lbs instead of my previous 185 lbs 3x5. Monday I did 3x5 @ 165 lbs and I'm still sore. Should I squat today or should I find an alternative? Maybe I should squat lighter?

[litulgsis]

Soreness is your body's clearest way of telling you that muscle group isn't recovered and shouldn't be worked. I'd say lay off until Friday and see if it feels better then. It may be frustrating at first to skip body parts, but if you over-train, you're just hurting yourself and your progress.

[Ross_the_Reaper]

Ok thank you. I didn't expect a response here so I made another topic. So please for give me for spamming the forum.

Instead of doing squats, I'll do some more calf raises and shrugs instead.

Edit: I deleted the new topic.

[litulgsis]

sounds good dude. good luck

[Wildtim]

Ross

Litulgsis is a compete and utter moron that has no business giving advice to anyone, let alone someone asking about a specific program he has never read. Heck, you are more muscular than he is.

Your cousin doesn't know what he is talking about either. If you listen to him it will take you years to get strong. Listen to Rippetoe and I'm betting you will be out squating your cousin in less than a year (if he can even squat at all).

Go back to the book and do things just like it says. Don't do light days on tues and thurs, they will just slow you down and hurt your progress.

If you were a lot stronger so you could use just the bar as a stretching tool and do the exercises as a stretch on your day off that would be one thing, but you aren't that strong yet. You could get away with using a broomstick on your off days to repeat a couple of sets from the routine to get a good stretch but thats all you would want to do weight wise on a rest day.

Your going to need the rest trust me. Especially with squats as your favorite exercise (repped for that)

Don't forget to do your warm-up sets there is a good calculator here:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi..._Strength_Wiki

[Cheap5.0]

Just reading your first post here (and not the rest of them) i can say this:

Your cousins wrong.
SS will make you into a big son of a bitch quicker than isolation's will (at this point in your lifting life).

SS is setup exactly the way it is for a reason. Its been refined, and refined and built and refined....into exactly what you read in that book. Follow its instructions to the "T". Dont add any excerses anywhere, take your days off, eat right and grow big. Its that simple.

Your cousins wrong btw.

[litulgsis]

Ross

Litulgsis is a compete and utter moron that has no business giving advice to anyone, let alone someone asking about a specific program he has never read. Heck, you are more muscular than he is.

Your cousin doesn't know what he is talking about either. If you listen to him it will take you years to get strong. Listen to Rippetoe and I'm betting you will be out squating your cousin in less than a year (if he can even squat at all).

Go back to the book and do things just like it says. Don't do light days on tues and thurs, they will just slow you down and hurt your progress.

If you were a lot stronger so you could use just the bar as a stretching tool and do the exercises as a stretch on your day off that would be one thing, but you aren't that strong yet. You could get away with using a broomstick on your off days to repeat a couple of sets from the routine to get a good stretch but thats all you would want to do weight wise on a rest day.

Your going to need the rest trust me. Especially with squats as your favorite exercise (repped for that)

Don't forget to do your warm-up sets there is a good calculator here:

Hey man I'm not sure what's with all the hostility, but my advice is perfectly sound. I've been at this for a while now and I have helped quite a few of my friends achieve their fitness goals. You don't know anything about me and I don't know anything about you so no need for trash talk. If the kid wants to lift on Tuesdays and Thursdays and his body feels good, then there's no reason he shouldn't. Think you're confused about what his rest days are, but who knows.

[Ross_the_Reaper]

@ Cheap5.0 and Wildtim

Thanks for your input guys. I suppose going by the book IS the sensible thing to so that's exactly what I'll do. However, my legs are still sore from the first workout. Should I still squat today to not break the routine? Also, I haven't really learned how to properly power clean it yet so would it be a good idea to deadlift instead until I get my form right on the power clean? Dead lifts are an easy and painless excersize for me.

@ litulgsis

I still value your advice so don't be offended.

[litulgsis]

Thanks for your input guys. I suppose going by the book IS the sensible thing to so that's exactly what I'll do. However, my legs are still sore from the first workout. Should I still squat today to not break the routine? Also, I haven't really learned how to properly power clean it yet so would it be a good idea to deadlift instead until I get my form right on the power clean? Dead lifts are an easy and painless excersize for me.

Might as well do power clean. You're going to have to do it again and again until your form is right anyways. :/

[Ross_the_Reaper]

Might as well do power clean. You're going to have to do it again and again until your form is right anyways. :/

Yeah, you're right.

[Cheap5.0]

@ Cheap5.0 and Wildtim

Thanks for your input guys. I suppose going by the book IS the sensible thing to so that's exactly what I'll do. However, my legs are still sore from the first workout. Should I still squat today to not break the routine? Also, I haven't really learned how to properly power clean it yet so would it be a good idea to deadlift instead until I get my form right on the power clean? Dead lifts are an easy and painless excersize for me.

@ litulgsis

I still value your advice so don't be offended.

If you cant clean properly...dont.

Sub in chin ups or pendlay rows in place, and work on your clean mechanics with an empty bar or broom stick at home.

I dont do SS to the "T", i skip cleans since i dont think i can do them properly. Im not proud to say that, and i dont like to say it but thats how it is. Instead i do chins alternating with deads....its better for your guns anyways lol. Im still working on my cleans, and one day i will be cleaning...but not until im ready.

You will be sore for the first week or two, just keep lifting and stick too it. If your still sore in week 3 (and its still as painful as the first day) than id be willing to bet you have a nutritional problem. Double check what your diet is, makes sure you are covering your macros (protein, fats, carbs) and make sure you are getting at least 6 hours of sleep a night. If your still sore after doing all that, you have other problems and an internet forum is the last place to find answers for that.

[Wildtim]

DO your cleans. Start with a broomstick if you have to but learn the form. I did The practical Programming novice because I was afraid of cleans, I've since learned them and wish I had done them as instructed Iwould have seen much better results from the program.

As for the soreness from squatting. I would squat. You have five warm-ups sets at lighter weight to get your form on track, this you need and these will often work the soreness out. You might just be amazed at how light your working sets feel. Most of the soreness you encounter early in the program is just your muscles getting used to being used in a new way. In two weeks or so you might not get sore form this program at all.

[Ross_the_Reaper]

I wish I waited a little longer before going to the gym because your advice would benefited me greatly. Unfortunately, todays workout was a disaster compared to Monday's.

Squats 3x5 165 lbs > 135 lbs
Military press 3x5 65 lbs compared to last years 115 lbs
Deadlift 1x5 195 lbs 135 lbs (expected because I wasn't suppose to dead lift today. I guess I'm a "gym idiot")

My goal wasn't to increase my capacity, but I instead wanted to match it. As I result, even though I lifted less weight my form was worse and was in more pain; Monday I felt great. The fact that I went back to the gym on Tuesday instead of resting like I was instructed contributed to my failure and I won't do it again. My back did hurt for about 3 minutes, but it's completely gone now. The best course of action to take at this point would be to skip Friday, rest until Monday so I can get a full recovery and start were I left off. In the meanwhile, I will go througth the book again and re-evaluate myself.

Thank you for the help guys.

[beltshumeltz]

Don't skip! If you avoid the gym everytime you are sore, that is a sure way to be sore everytime since your body won't adapt to it. Soreness usually leaves after your cardio warmup and a few warming squatting sets. Regardless, it will be a non-issue once you have a bar on the back.

About SS results, here are mine. I had trained on and off, tried my own thing, added stuff like isolation exercises, calf raises, etc. and I deeply regret wasting time on these.

In the last 5-6 weeks, I have done THE PROGRAM alone, with chinups/pendlay rows instead of the clean, and with abs and biceps curls in addition.

Here are my 5-6 weeks results:

Squat: 160 pounds my first week, the next week 180 was VERY VERY DIFFICULT. I just squatted 250 and it was somewhat easier!

Benchpress: 120 to 165 in (I had benched a bit before, my real start was about 2 months earlier)

Pendlay row: 135 to 160, and the bar is much lighter at that weight

Deadlift: 225 to 295

Overhead press: 70 to 115 (I had done it before, so I got 2 more months of it)

Chin ups: Couldn't do bodyweight at 175, now I do bodyweight at 186 + 20 pounds

Bicep curls: 50 to 73.75

I have added 5 pounds to the bar every single workout and I haven't missed any in 5 weeks. I have doubted myself many times but it turned out I finished every set, with no exception. I ate a ton, took protein, drank a lot of milk, and gained a few pounds though, mostly because I'm really afraid of stalling on the squat.

So do it! If you are new to squatting, you may need some practice to get the form right though so after your workouts, you can do some lighter backoff sets to fix your form issues discovered when you had heavier weights on you.

And I have 3 suggestions for you as well:
1- Buy chalk, use it for deadlifts at least
2- Buy partial plates, use them so you can raise the weight on overhead press by 2.5 pounds when your last workout was very difficult and you don't think you can raise by 5 pounds. You can find some on Ebay.
3- Buy a good weightlifting belt, for the squat, deadlift and overhead press

[Cheap5.0]

I wish I waited a little longer before going to the gym because your advice would benefited me greatly. Unfortunately, todays workout was a disaster compared to Monday's.

Squats 3x5 165 lbs > 135 lbs
Military press 3x5 65 lbs compared to last years 115 lbs
Deadlift 1x5 195 lbs 135 lbs (expected because I wasn't suppose to dead lift today. I guess I'm a "gym idiot")

My goal wasn't to increase my capacity, but I instead wanted to match it. As I result, even though I lifted less weight my form was worse and was in more pain; Monday I felt great. The fact that I went back to the gym on Tuesday instead of resting like I was instructed contributed to my failure and I won't do it again. My back did hurt for about 3 minutes, but it's completely gone now. The best course of action to take at this point would be to skip Friday, rest until Monday so I can get a full recovery and start were I left off. In the meanwhile, I will go througth the book again and re-evaluate myself.

Thank you for the help guys.

1) Form > weight ALWAYS. Bad form = injurys. Injurys = no lifting.

2) When i started SS, i knew i didnt need to start squatting @ 45 lbs (or start benching @ 45lbs) but i did anyways because i had been told by a few smart guys that many people start SS and start WAYYY to heavy.

My advice: Start anew. Empty bars for everything next Monday. Then Wednesday add 10 lbs, and keep adding 10 lbs as long as your form does not break down. When form breaks, drop 5 lbs and finish the lift with good form. The next week start adding 5 lbs a week.

You only have one choice with SS, either do it right or drop it. I really hope you choose to do it right, i know you will be happy with the results.

EDIT: Above where i say "keep adding weight" i mean 10 lbs MAX per workout day. Not all in the same day...

[Farley1324]

Hey man I'm not sure what's with all the hostility, but my advice is perfectly sound. I've been at this for a while now and I have helped quite a few of my friends achieve their fitness goals.

While this may be true, statements like this:

It sounds like Mark's program is some variation of the 5x5 program (explained in this article bodybuilding.com/fun/5-best-bodybuilding-programs.htm).

Do not cast your knowledge in a good light. It is a very well known program around here, you may as well have a look at it so you know more the next time it comes up.

[litulgsis]

While this may be true, statements like this:
Do not cast your knowledge in a good light. It is a very well known program around here, you may as well have a look at it so you know more the next time it comes up.

I said "it sounds like". I wasn't claiming to know the program, and I don't. What I do know is the 5x5 program because I have used it. Making a connection between the two because of similarities shouldn't (and doesn't as far as I can tell) shed a bad light on my knowledge. The appropriate thing to do would've been to say "hey litulgsis, you are wrong and the programs aren't the same. you should check out what mark's program is here at (insert url). hope that clears things up". instead of being a dick... but that's just how I see it.

EDIT*

and ross, you're going to experience some soreness for the first couple of weeks doing this just because your muscles are being shocked. just push through the pain and don't worry about weight. it will come with time.

[Farley1324]

I said "it sounds like". I wasn't claiming to know the program, and I don't. What I do know is the 5x5 program because I have used it.

Which 5x5 program?

[Bamma]

I said "it sounds like". I wasn't claiming to know the program, and I don't. What I do know is the 5x5 program because I have used it. Making a connection between the two because of similarities shouldn't (and doesn't as far as I can tell) shed a bad light on my knowledge. The appropriate thing to do would've been to say "hey litulgsis, you are wrong and the programs aren't the same. you should check out what mark's program is here at (insert url). hope that clears things up". instead of being a dick... but that's just how I see it.

EDIT*

and ross, you're going to experience some soreness for the first couple of weeks doing this just because your muscles are being shocked. just push through the pain and don't worry about weight. it will come with time.

Dude, you know nothing at all about the SS program. You really should refrain from giving advice on something about which you are clueless. Mark Rippetoe's program has made a lot of very weak people strong. He does not need you or anyone else telling people to change the program to something it is not meant to be. The #1 cause of people not succeeding on that program is messing with it and doing something other than what he prescribed.

[litulgsis]

Which 5x5 program?

copy/paste the link I posted in the first post. the exercised ross listed and the fact that he was doing low reps and high sets was the link I was making between the 2 programs.

Edit*

Bamma, I wasn't giving him advice about Mark's program. Again, I have never even seen the program nor do I claim to ever know anything about it. I was giving him general lifting advice from my own experience and what worked for me. If you would bother to read Ross' entire first post and what all he was asking about, you'd realize that he was asking more than just about Mark's program...hence my advice and input that wasn't about Mark's program... lol guys need to get off my balls. I'm not knockin or even talking about the idolized Ripptoe program.

[grumble1]

OP:

Your cousin's wrong.

Rest on all your rest days. If you want some activity Tue/Thurs, then do some light cardio. Do not lift weights.

Also you might want to lower your starting weights. You may have started a bit heavy. SS is usually fairly easy for the first week or two, and you should be working on your form then. If I were you, I'd take some weight off my lifts and go from there.

litulgsis:

I don't agree with what you said. SS is not a 5x5 variant, though they follow some of the same rep range principles and kind of come from the same place. 5x5 is an intermediate weekly progression program, and SS is a per-workout linear progression program. Fundamentally different.

DOMS is not an indicator of a good workout. Plenty of people including myself have gotten strong without much DOMS. Plenty of people strive for DOMS every workout and have been spinning their wheels for years. Progress with weight on the bar and reps in the set, not with muscle soreness. If you want DOMS, only do heavy negatives. If you want to be stronger, add weight.

You might want to consider holding off on the SS advice until you have read up a little on the program. People who are familiar with SS tend to get kind of sensitive about people ****ing with the program as it usually ends up in tears. If you want to give advice, make sure you do it from an educated standpoint.


I kind of agree with Cheap5.0 about the cleans. They can be dangerous to do with bad form, and many people have problems getting it right by themselves. I hurt myself twice doing cleans, and avoid them now. I'm on SS right now (post hernia op), and I'm doing chinups. If you can do the cleans, do the cleans. If you've figured out the hard way that you can't, don't bash your head into a wall.

[Farley1324]

copy/paste the link I posted in the first post. the exercised ross listed and the fact that he was doing low reps and high sets was the link I was making between the 2 programs.

FYI, the program you linked is not what people are going to think of when you say 5x5. Typical 5x5 programs are for intermediate lifters. They use a moderate volume/moderate intensity Monday (5x5), light/recover day on Wed, and then something else on Friday. Intensity or dynamic effort typically.

What you linked is an A/B style that uses 5x5 every day for every major lift.

I dont recall reading of anybody on here using that much.

[litulgsis]

Thanks for replying intelligently instead of simply ball-busting, Gordon. I'll take a look at the SS program to further my own knowledge and for future references. Good post man.

Farley, I'm on the A/B split right now doin 5x5 for 4 days, then rest. This is my 2nd week doing so and it's feelin pretty good. Not sure the "typical" program would suit me personally. I don't like lifting one day and resting the next, then repeating. But that's just what my body is used to and is comfortable with.

[Ross_the_Reaper]

I decided that I'm going to go light instead of heavy on Friday because I think I started my program too heavy as gordonrumble said. That way I can still practice form and work out the soreness. I've gotten a lot better since yesterday and I've been worse than this. In fact, I can go all out tomorrow and I'd probably be fine, but I'd rather take it easy and allow a better recovery because I did do too much this week already and just because I feel fine doesn't mean that my body is.

In the meanwhile, I'll have enough time to run through the book again and get thing right this time around. Even though I know I can squat 165 lbs doesn't mean that I should RIGHT NOW. Instead, I think I'll start lighter and increase weight a little everyday, easing my way into it. Before I know it I'll be lifting that much without breaking a sweat and in a month I'll be lifting 200. Wish me luck. I'll keep you guys posted.