The Minotaur's Challenge and Progress.

**Gator** · 05-21-2003, 06:09 AM

Just make your shoulders bigger !!!!
Good luck and welcome back..

Gator

Originally posted by Minotaur
I can only fantasize about getting down to a 32" waist. I think though, that the best I'd be able to do is 34-35", even getting fat way down. I've got short thick bones that make me generally wide. I was told this after x-rays at the chiropractor's office. It's OK though. That will still give me about a 12" drop from chest to waist.

**Hibiscus09** · 05-21-2003, 06:11 AM

I keep trying to do that -- mine won't grow.

Hey, I just noticed your message about a R.O. Have you had one taken out on you? LOL

**Gator** · 05-21-2003, 06:17 AM

Umm no, a guy on my softball team has that on a t shirt last game, I was in sticthes..LOL

Originally posted by Hibiscus09
I keep trying to do that -- mine won't grow. :(

Hey, I just noticed your message about a R.O. Have you had one taken out on you? LOL

**Hibiscus09** · 05-21-2003, 06:20 AM

Just glad they're not something you collect. . .

**Minotaur** · 05-21-2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Gator
Just make your shoulders bigger !!!!
Good luck and welcome back..

Gator

Woikin' on, woikin' on it!

I'm shooting for getting up to a 50 jacket. Early last year I tried on 46s, then a few weeks ago I tried on 48s. A tad too small. Next stop... 50!

**Minotaur** · 05-27-2003, 11:14 AM

Well who'da thunk it!? (keto fans, that's who!). OK, OK I'll stop being stupid.

Yes, I am shrinking. My waist had been consistently measuring at 40ish with the Tape Measure From Hell. The other day I decided to check, and lo and behold, on the first, 'not thinking about it' measurement, my waist measured a tad more than 38".

My size 40 pants are absolutely swimming on me. I guess I'll just keep using the 4th hole in my belt, and pulling my pants up. Unfortunately I can't wear my 36 dress and casual slacks yet, but the 36 jeans fit fine.

Here's a really strange thing... I tried on a size 46 jacket that fit really well. In fact it was a bit large in the midsection. The chest and shoulders were roomy enough; the arms could have been a tad roomier. Either this jacket must be cut generously (because my chest actually measures 46"), or I've lost enough fat to make a smaller size fit... I haven't lost any size on my chest or arms.

Neither have I lost very much scale weight. Still hovering around 205.

Now I'm definitely at that in-between-sizes stage. It feels good that the pants are getting loose and the shirt sleeves are getting snug.

**Musicguy** · 05-27-2003, 11:20 AM

Good report Minotaur.

Glad to hear that things are going in the right direction for you.... keep it up!

**IPR** · 05-27-2003, 09:23 PM

Brilliant news.

**kendo** · 05-29-2003, 01:11 PM

Maybe the 32" aint a dream

**Minotaur** · 05-29-2003, 01:33 PM

Maybe you're right, Kendo, maybe you're right.

It looks like my hormonal issues are settling down too. I saw my endo the other day for my TSH follow up. My TSH is 1.1. That's just about perfect. But what's more, it goes along with feeling pretty damn good. She was pleased.

I really surprised myself last night in the gym. It was chest night, and I was geting a little bored with using the machines. Since I had been losing some strength, I was relying on the safety of the machines (read, I was being a wuss).

So I decided to use the bench. Well, I'm not going to list the weights I used

but let's say that I started with 1?5 for 8 reps, then added 10 lbs to that for 8 reps, then added 10 lbs to that for 2 more sets of 6 reps each. Then I did incline dumbells for 3 sets of 8. The upshot is that for not benching in months, I got up to 20 lbs less than I was benching before, for sets and reps.

Even my squats are just 20 lbs away from where they were... did 255 for a couple of sets of 6 reps the other night.

Yeah, baby, yeah! The bull is out of the chute!

**mainer001** · 05-29-2003, 02:12 PM

Way to go Minotaur.

**TwoWalks** · 05-29-2003, 03:30 PM

Coming to a theatre near you this summer:

THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING MAN
Starring Minotaur

great job all the way around

**Minotaur** · 05-31-2003, 12:22 PM

(yeah, my first mistake

)

I haven't been doing any cardio while ketoing. As I 've posted, I'm making pretty good progress, but I wonder if I'd do better by adding some cardio. Maybe a 20-30 min. run here or there, a bike ride, or something to that effect?

**Bob45** · 05-31-2003, 02:58 PM

If you have the time and energy for cardio and lifting with keto go for it. It will help.

**IPR** · 05-31-2003, 04:46 PM

Mino......some thoughts on cardio

Fat loss is enhanced by high intensity exercise, specifically weight lifting and HIIT type cardio. However, you must treat HIIT cardio in a similar way you do your workouts with off days etc between workouts and HIIT, otherwise you will slow your fat loss as you would by lifting weights everyday.....the bodys hormonal response is the same.

In keto cardio should be incorporated, as it should be with any diet purely for cardiovascualr health.

30mins of low/moderate intensity cardio does not produce a GH response, hence it doesn't enhance per se, although there are some metabolic rate advantages. But it is good cardiovascular wise, and if intensity isn't high you won't produce the rise in cortisol either that comes with HIIT.

The upshot of all this is:

1. Yes do cardio.
2. If low/moderate you can do this on the off day after a workout, which helps with active recovery (increased blood flow into muscles etc) without raising cortisol.
3. If doing HIIT, this would replace lifting and should be treated in the same way as far as recovery is concerned.

Not quite the simple yes answer you wanted eh

Personally I do no. 2, where I do workouts everyother day with cardio on off days.

**Minotaur** · 05-31-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by IPR
Not quite the simple yes answer you wanted eh

Personally I do no. 2, where I do workouts everyother day with cardio on off days.

That's a simple enough answer.

When I do cardio, it's 'fun' cardio, like running or bike riding. I know it has the same physical effects, but the mental effect is different.

Also when I'd do cardio, like go for a run, it was on an off-lifting day.

So basically, you confirmed what I was thinking.

Thanks.

**TwoWalks** · 05-31-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by IPR
Mino......some thoughts on cardio

Not quite the simple yes answer you wanted eh

A very easy to understand answer and a great answer: they don't get any better than that

**Bob45** · 05-31-2003, 06:44 PM

Great lesson IPR, I thank you too!

**Minotaur** · 06-24-2003, 09:12 AM

Well, this week I'm a little disgusted. Of course, it's nothing I won't get over. I'm feeling the effects of the weekend carb up... I feel like a 'blotation device'... aka Shamu... aka Chumley the Walrus... aka... well, you get the idea.

I have to rethink this whole carb up thing. It seems the more I stay off them, the more sensitive I am to them. I blow up, get gassy, and crave more carbs. I love carbs... I hate carbs... I can't get enough carbs... I want to avoid carbs... I need carbs... I can live without carbs... !!! Oh God I'm so confused... !!!

Of course, it would help if I'd get out and do some cardio.

While I see some fat loss in a few areas of my body, my midsection is hanging on. But my upper back is showing cuts. And even under the washing out effect of the gym's flourescent lights, I often see definition in my arms and shoulders, which seem also to be growing nicely.

And my weight is going up. With workout clothes on I tip the gym scale at about 208. I've been using creatine for several weeks now in my post workout apple juice/whey protein shakes.

I've been wearing size 40 slacks, which are actually pretty loose. Yet 38s are too snug for my taste. I'd rather wear slightly larger slacks instead of having a bit of belly pudge poke over the waistband.

My goal is 36 pants. I'll never get down to 32/34 without sacrificing too much muscle in my legs and butt. I'll probably still have to wear 38 or 40 slacks, yet have the waist taken in. That part is OK by me.

So I guess I'm doing OK.

**TwoWalks** · 06-24-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Minotaur
I have to rethink this whole carb up thing. It seems the more I stay off them, the more sensitive I am to them. I blow up, get gassy, and crave more carbs. I love carbs... I hate carbs... I can't get enough carbs... I want to avoid carbs... I need carbs... I can live without carbs... !!! Oh God I'm so confused... !!!

Heeheee, hey Minotaur if it will help make you feel any better, done the same thing this past weekend. Then just too help with equation, drank little water and threw some salt in just for good measure.

Blew up like a beach ball and have sounded like a whoopy cushion for three days. Scale weight jumped 4#'s and the waist inflated 1 1/4". Whew, good news is that it will go down and away, perhaps before the coming weekend. Then of course, I will do something stupid this next week end and look like a beach ball all over again.

**Minotaur** · 06-24-2003, 10:31 AM

I think it was I who cleared the legs room last night at the gym.

**TwoWalks** · 06-24-2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Minotaur
I think it was I who cleared the legs room last night at the gym.

one more good reason for working out at home

The sonic booms in a closed space really shake you up though.

**Hibiscus09** · 06-24-2003, 11:54 AM

I love carbs...

This is where I'm at on the subject. I'm carbing up right now for my bike ride later this evening.

**IPR** · 06-24-2003, 06:41 PM

Mino.....a couple of ideas that might help.

Cut your weekend carb-up to just 12hrs, say Sat morning to Sat evening. Then add a single evening meal carb-up Tues evening. This is what I am currently doing.

The other thing is the apple juice with your whey, too much will head for the liver rather than the muscles. IMO you would be better off with just whey on its own than with fruit juice unless its grape. If possible use dextrose (can be ordered online) or go for just the whey and water.

IMO our muscles don't get anywhere nearly as depleted as we like to think, so carb-ups don't need to be so huge.

Also, your gut bloat will probably be the creatine, drop it and see the difference

The other thing is you may have reached your bodyfat set point. Stick with your plan and you will gradually lower this point.

**Minotaur** · 06-25-2003, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by IPR
Mino.....a couple of ideas that might help.

Your ideas are always helpful.

Cut your weekend carb-up to just 12hrs, say Sat morning to Sat evening. Then add a single evening meal carb-up Tues evening. This is what I am currently doing.

Hmm... I could do this. I would have to be diligent about eating enough on Saturday. Saturday and Sunday eating is catch-as-catch-can. That is, I don't eat on schedule because I'm usually out and about running errands or 'missions of mercy' as we call them. This may be sabotaging my efforts.

The other thing is the apple juice with your whey, too much will head for the liver rather than the muscles. IMO you would be better off with just whey on its own than with fruit juice unless its grape. If possible use dextrose (can be ordered online) or go for just the whey and water.

Oh really!? See, now that's interesting. I use the apple juice for the post workout creatine. I understand that apple juice and grape juice (actually more carbs per serving than apple juice) are the best for transporting creatine, as well as for the post workout insulin spike.

IMO our muscles don't get anywhere nearly as depleted as we like to think, so carb-ups don't need to be so huge.

Yeah, I'm beginning to see this.

Also, your gut bloat will probably be the creatine, drop it and see the difference

The other thing is you may have reached your bodyfat set point. Stick with your plan and you will gradually lower this point.

Hmm... this is worth considering.

I've cycled on and off creatine for several years. I'm one of the people for whom it seems to increase strength. But I think it may now be causing some puffiness. I had to add two more links to my watch band. And as I indicated, my weight has gone up a few pounds.

Yeah, I'm on board with the set-pont idea. I have to remember, even though I'm on hormone replacements, this does not mean everything is perfect or 'eu-' anything. I believe that there is always something amiss even on hormone replacements.

I'll do some progress pics soon. I think there is a change. I'm not giving up hope on getting to my goal. I've seen keto working for me. I just have to realize that everything for me is slower. I didn't gain the weight overnight... it actually crept up on me over a few years.

**little lats** · 06-25-2003, 08:04 AM

Mino, I really agree with the 12 - 24 hours (tops) carb up. Last weekend I only had 2 meals. I don't notice any strength differences. Now that summer is here I want to start doing a 48 hour carb up. Having a hard time resisting the burgers on the grill!!

I think all of us agree that lifestyle plays a good part of this. Keep it going bud!!

**IPR** · 06-25-2003, 06:05 PM

Mino......you are doing great.

Keto is just my way of life now, so have been experimenting abit.

IMO the big carb-up isn't necessary, and in general once you start to feel bloated it means your glycogen store are pretty much full. Think about it, I can have a big carb meal and feel no bloating at all, its immediately transported to my muscle stores, but towards the end of my carb-up a small carb meal can leave me feeling REALLY bloated, why the difference, stores are full.

My current approach is to have carb meals twice a week, but each is much shorter, plus the post workout dextrose in my shake. But even with this I have played around. For leg days, definitely plenty of dex, back as well, chest a little less and arm day I only have whey ad water. For cardio I have a blended protein with some olive oil.

btw, the reason fruit juice is not great as a post workout carb source is because of the fructose. Fructose will preferentially replenish liver glycogen instead of muscle which we obviously want to avoid. Grape juice has less fructose and more dextrose which will preferentially replenish muscle glycogen, hence pure dextrose or maltodextrin is best.

The reason the two juices are used for creatine is because they are non-acidic, using dextrose will be just as good if not better for your creatine transportation.

I'm confident you will get to your goal

**Musicguy** · 06-25-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by IPR
in general once you start to feel bloated it means your glycogen store are pretty much full. Think about it, I can have a big carb meal and feel no bloating at all, its immediately transported to my muscle stores, but towards the end of my carb-up a small carb meal can leave me feeling REALLY bloated, why the difference, stores are full.

Very helpful, IPR; thanks!

I have noticed this effect for a long time, without really knowing what was involved. Obviously, since I'm not a keto eater, it may not be exactly the same thing, but I've learned how to pay attention to what I'm feeling in my body insofar as making choices for my next meal, i.e. protein, fat, or carb.

**Minotaur** · 06-25-2003, 07:29 PM

Thanks IPR. These sound like good tweaks, and I guess after 3 months of otherwise good results (started the week of Mar. 17), it's time to tweak and kick it in the butt.

**Minotaur** · 08-01-2003, 08:18 AM

Yeah, I've come to a realization and a resolution. That's why I'm not really ranting, because I accept this.

I've had it with dieting. I've tried ckd (as we know from this and the Senior's Keto thread), Body for Life, Gladiator Diet, 40/30/30 (and various permutations thereof), etc. All hormone levels are normal with replacements (thyroid, t, gh) and I feel great. Yet losing fat is, for me, extremely difficult. Yet I have been adding muscle. I know this because my weight has been going up (boy has it), and my arms have grown, yet my waist measurement is pretty constant.

Maybe I'm just accepting that I'll never get to a 10% bodyfat physique, and liking myself as a chunky muscle bear.

I'm 5'5" and probably about 212-215 buck nekkid, 40" waist, 46" chest, 16.5" biceps, 17" neck. I wear size 40 pants, which are a bit loose. Having had to buy new slacks in size 40 and shirts in XL/17 1/2 and seeing how comfortable well-fitting clothes are has made me say "the hell with size and dieting!"

I want to put another half inch or so (at least) on my arms and a few more inches on my chest, for example. My goal is always to keep my chest larger than my gut. A 48-50 chest and 40 waist is my goal. And of course to get stronger and increase lift poundages. But that will never happen by dieting.

I've caught my reflection in windows and mirrors at the mall, seen how chunky I am and thought "damn! sexy looking bear! Is that me!?" I don't try to 'suck in' my gut anymore. Hey, it's there, and I'm proud of it. I've even started referring to myself as 'just a fat guy that lifts' or as a fat muscle bear.

The hell with dieting, the hell with watching ratios and calories. Keto, Body for Life, Gladiator Diet, Zone, Atkins... bah! I want to eat like a man... pizza, a couple of sandwiches for lunch, steak and taters, beer, diner food, bagels with butter and cream cheese, muffins!

Health is not a problem because of the lifting and cardio (I run and bike ride).

I'm probably going to get crap from people as in "gee Frankie, put on some weight huh?" or "getting a little chubby" (yeah, I got a chubby for ya).

However, my planned response is going to be "yes, I have... thank you".

And no more geedee effin shaving! Just my back and arms. I'm keeping the pelt on the front.

Damn, I feel good bellowing that out.

(Watch... I'll eat like an animal and probably lose weight.

)

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