[Former Muslim] Islam is not a religion of peace,Ask me anything

[cheeseymeat]

Yes slavery existed, but only to prevent death, this was a result of the wars fought. . We all know that civilians suffer during war so rather than killing prisoners of war, Islam allowed slavery but had strict regulations about how a slave was to be treated.

Someone tell this lady it's the R/P. Can't have this type of talk (bolded) up in here.

Don't drink alocohol,don't be gay,don't eat pork,women must cover their hair, no more slavery...oh wait sorry forget the last part let's keep that for a while. Common sense ,ok

yeah something you know very little about.

maybe but I'd like to think some muslims are too hot-headed to admit they're wrong, they just can't be this stupid

[BadMonkeyFunker]

When Ottomans spilled blood in their expansion/conquests rather than in defence then they were wrong, Islam does not justify it.

???? One of the the largest, strongest and longest lasting islamic empires had 200 years of expansion thru war. So where is the 'islamic' part then ? If they couldn't even follow the basics of their religion ?

Ask any European, they'll tell you the old tales of ottoman turks. Barbaric turks. How peaceful and 'godly' they were.

[MuzzieChik786]

yeah something you know very little about.

Lol right. And look at you, I count 4 of you big, bad men trying to win an e-fight against a female. I understand opie's posts and his vocal right to be homosexual and thus his hatred of religiousity, but the rest of you... lol, just lol.

[danchoo33]

???? One of the the largest, strongest and longest lasting islamic empires had 200 years of expansion thru war. So where is the 'islamic' part then ? If they couldn't even follow the basics of their religion ?

Ask any European, they'll tell you the old tales of ottoman turks. Barbaric turks. How peaceful and 'godly' they were.

Oh my goodness, go and read the excerpt from a history book I just quoted, how unfair are they to their non-natives? If you are saying that the fact that they never forced the entire colony to convert, let their milets choose their own religious leaders and allowed them to continue to practice under their original laws then you have no idea what freedom is. They never imposed their own laws on non-Muslims, Christians and Jews never had to abide by Sharia law.

No other empire did that, they all enforced their laws and their ways on the non-natives.

Go and read how much they developed society, how much art and architecture flourished. Please find me an empire that gave its non-native people as much freedom, I dare you otherwise just stop. This isn't something I just pulled out of no where I studied history at university for three years and an atheist history professor openly agreed that the Ottomans were the most fair empire to its people native and non-native. They weren't perfect but easily the best in regards to how they treated non-natives.

[danchoo33]

Don't drink alocohol,don't be gay,don't eat pork,women must cover their hair, no more slavery...oh wait sorry forget the last part let's keep that for a while. Common sense ,ok


maybe but I'd like to think some muslims are too hot-headed to admit they're wrong, they just can't be this stupid

Do you know why slavery wasn't outlawed altogether because it is the last resort to give someone before they are killed. it is better to be a slave who is treated with dignity than it is to die because you are unfortunate to be living in the middle of war.

Secondly Islam outlaws bad things yet some Muslims still do it.
so if Islam outlawed slavery altogether, people could still do it anyway and there would be no code or set of rules they had to follow because it is absolutely outlawed so basically slaves will get treated like crap. freeing a slave is one of the most pious things a Muslim can do and it was always encouraged. Basically what Muslims are supposed to do is take a slave is if it spares an innocent person from death, treat them with kindness and free them when it appropriate to do so. Its not some sex slave thing you ignorant maniacs keep making up.

It shocks me to my core how desperate a person can be to find a bunch of lies that all contradict everything written in the Qur'an just because they don't agree with a religion. Get a life OP, you need one.

[cheeseymeat]

Lol right. And look at you, I count 4 of you big, bad men trying to win an e-fight against a female.

I was wondering when you are going to play the sexist card, if she was a guy then she'd be as equally picked on but she is too persistent, so we will continue to "e-fight" her.

I understand opie's posts and his vocal right to be homosexual and thus his hatred of religiousity, but the rest of you

pretty sure I never fancied someones dick or balls anywhere near my face ,nice try

[BetaAsPhuck]

Lol right. And look at you, I count 4 of you big, bad men trying to win an e-fight against a female. I understand opie's posts and his vocal right to be homosexual and thus his hatred of religiousity, but the rest of you... lol, just lol.

I just a lot or respect for you, playing the sexist card.

But you probably don't believe in egalitarianism anyway.

[cheeseymeat]

Do you know why slavery wasn't outlawed altogether because it is the last resort to give someone before they are killed. it is better to be a slave who is treated with dignity than it is to die because you are unfortunate to be living in the middle of war.


so if Islam outlawed slavery altogether, people could still do it anyway and there would be no code or set of rules they had to follow because it is absolutely outlawed so basically slaves will get treated like crap

Read surah al-nahl where Allah encourages Al-Adl and Al-ehssaan, meaning justice and kindness. Your justification of slavery goes like this, it is because this and this and that...but ...but..but...at the time thing were different blah blah.
Lady,the reality is you are talking straight out of your bum.

[BetaAsPhuck]

pretty sure I never fancied someones dick or balls anywhere near my face ,nice try

Fundamentalist and Islamist Muslims don't like homosexuals. That's why a few of them ITT have tried to aim accusations at you at being homosexual. They believe in the death penalty for homosexuality in an Islamic state.

My standard response would be to play along with it, and just say; Yeah I'm Gay, and what?

[MuzzieChik786]

^^ Now you're just making up stuff about me. No issue with homosexuals, apostates or Lady Gaga. People can do whatever they want.

I just a lot or respect for you, playing the sexist card.

But you probably don't believe in egalitarianism anyway.

Not playing any card. Just making an observation. It's funny to me how some of us rehash the same stuff over and over again. Although many points have been refuted.

That 8x8 dude is most funny with his obsession with the number 666.

Lol, okay opie.

That religious debate thread should be named after you 5. Asthanius or whatever his name is could be the referee.

[hardestgainer]

really? haha! right there anything you say is garbage. It is well documented he was... that's why muslims still practice it today. I guess muslims / ****s have a different ingrained idea of what age a 50 something year old man can have sex with a girl that's not even in her double digit years. yeah mohammed himself did that. sick sick people.

Bruh read the last few pages of this thread, she isnt even worth the 15 seconds it took to type up a response. She isnt retarded, she's just a liar and everytime she has gotten exposed she just claims it was corrupted. Because somehow she knows what has, and hasnt been corrupted over the last 1000 years apparently.....all of which just conveniently helps her fairy tale of lies and deceit, which is mostly what that religion is based around. Like I said in my original post, my best friend just pretends to be muslim in the states because of all the benefits he gets out of it and everything OP posted lines up with what my friend has told me, people like danchoo just give me nice reminders of when he said "never trust a real practicing muslim, because to them you are nothing and lying to your face is what they are supposed to do".

[cheeseymeat]

Fundamentalist and Islamist Muslims don't like homosexuals. That's why a few of them ITT have tried to aim accusations at you at being homosexual. They believe in the death penalty for homosexuality in an Islamic state.

My standard response would be to play along with it, and just say; Yeah I'm Gay, and what?

I can't give the arrogant muslims in this thread a false sense of satisfaction of thinking that I converted because I was gay, it will completely diminish and distract from the reasons why I left Islam and religion as a whole.

Not playing any card. Just making an observation. It's funny to me how some of us rehash the same stuff over and over again. Although many points have been refuted.

I count 4 of you big, bad men trying to win an e-fight against a female

All your cool talk and subtlety don't fool us , you are not as smart as you think you are and we can see right through your BS. Thanks for pointing that out and highlighting the gender of each side, as if we didn't know that already , great "observation".

[BetaAsPhuck]

I can't give the arrogant muslims in this thread a false sense of satisfaction of thinking that I converted because I was gay, it will completely diminish and distract from the reasons why I left Islam and religion as a whole.

Fair enough, I see what you're saying.

All your cool talk and subtlety don't fool us , you are not as smart as you think you are and we can see right through your BS. Thanks for pointing that out and highlighting the gender of each side, as if we didn't know that already , great "observation".

Exactly.

I just lost even more respect for you muzziechick786, for not owning your obvious intention.

I invited any muslim to join the debate regarding Slavery, not one has.

A muslim negged me, and I PM'd him to join the debate. He replied back, declined, and then insulted me.

You are lurking, you can join the debate any time you want, but you have chosen not to.

I am confident that there are other muslims lurking, who choose not to join the debate.

I'm going to go off on a tangent now...

Muzziechick786 has displayed something that frustrated me with the UK south Asian muslim community at least (that has been the community where I gathered majority of my experience, when I was a muslim).

They were more angry toward critics of Islam, than other muslims committing evil acts and declaring that they are doing it in accordance with Islam.

We are debating the topic of slavery. Of making other human beings the legal and literal property of another human being, and of sexual slavery, but what she chose to comment on was '4 big bad mean, picking on a woman' to criticize.

I have seen that time and time again, and that is a reason why people have a distrust of muslims. (I'm not saying I support blanket distrust of muslims, I am telling you that I believe it's a factor.)

Playing the sexism card was more important to you than taking the opportunity to condemn slavery, and sexual slavery. Though perhaps you don't.

[MuzzieChik786]

Playing the sexism card was more important to you than taking the opportunity to condemn slavery, and sexual slavery. Though perhaps you don't.

Oh but we have. I've danced that dance with you guys before regarding slavery. The fact is, you guys are guilty for the very thing you accuse the Muslims of .. rehashing arguments that don't fit your view.

Frankly, I don't care to do it anymore. It's interesting to read your debates in here, so yes, I'm reading the thread. But it's the same old stuff with newly created IDs.

And please, nobody here really cares about what other internet personalities think of them. So chillax. Hardly anything makes me angry.

Items I've debated on here: slavery, gender roles, apostacy, terrorism and extremism... just to name a few.

After a while, it just gets old.

Ps: lol at using UK Pakistanis as the basis of your mistrust of Muslims. You kidding me dude? I'd be the first to agree with you on that one. Difference is, I KNOW they aren't a remotely good example of Muslims. I've been called out by some for my views on them.

Anyways, carry on. Goodbye.

[Weightaholic]

Lol right. And look at you, I count 4 of you big, bad men trying to win an e-fight against a female. I understand opie's posts and his vocal right to be homosexual and thus his hatred of religiousity, but the rest of you... lol, just lol.

So we've gone from the cliched argument of "you left your religion because you didn't understand it, therefore what you say is invalid" to "you left your religion because you're a homo, therefore what you say is invalid".

Pathetic.

[BetaAsPhuck]

Here you go dude since you love hadiths so much here are some:

I'm not writing the following statement to be facetious or provocative...

It's pretty clear that you're not reading my posts.

Can you you tell me why?

The reason why I wrote that statement is because you wrote this at the end of your last post.

There you go that is what you call a true hadith, print it out and frame it on your wall so that you can remember what a true hadith looks like.

And then you go on to quote the exact same hadith that I quoted.

Which is the exact same hadith that you rejected...

This is what you've just quoted...

You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her." Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self (i.e. freedom) was her Mahr (dower) for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet. (Bukhari, Hadith 358)

BTW the hadith number reference is wrong. And the hadith you quote has been edited...

This is the hadith, in full, that I quoted, that you subsequently rejected...

(Please read the underlined, and bolded parts of the hadith)

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367 :

Narrated by 'Abdul 'Aziz

Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice.

The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.'

So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her." Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet . So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, 'Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.' He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-SawTq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walrma (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle ."

The underlined is the part of the hadith that you have presented, the rest has been edited out.

So, approx 24 hours later you have radically changed your belief again, and are now accepting a hadith that you have previously rejected.

On to the 2nd hadith, and another radical change of belief by yourself...

When Safiya came to the Holy Prophet (pbuh), he said to her; ‘Among the Jews your father did not stop in his enmity towards me until Allah destroyed him.’ She said: ‘O Allah’s Messenger! Indeed Allah says in His book, ‘No one will take anyone else’s burden’. So the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said to her: ‘Make your choice, if you will chose Islam I’ll select you for myself and if you chose Judaism, I’ll set you free and send you to your people.’(Ibn Saad 8/123)

Previously you wrote this in regards to Saffiya...

She was never enslaved,

And you also wrote this in regards to Muhammad...

before the Holy Prophet came along women were raped and sold into slavery left,right and center, it was his revelation that prohibited people from doing this to women. Go read Islamic history.

Both of the hadith you quoted are clear evidence, that you have just proclaimed as 'true hadith', that Muhammad did in fact enslave females.

So, you have now admitted being wrong about your belief about Saffiya not being a slave, and you have admitted being wrong that Muhammad prohibited people from enslaving women.

I will get around to addressing the issue of Saffiya's acceptance of Islam in my next post (I need to get on with some work), that you seem to believe is evidence of her fondness or good feelings towards Muhammad.

[mlgpro]

I'm a former Muslim as well and I would say that it's neither a religion of hate, nor a religion of peace. I actually went to an Islamic school in Chicago for 10 years so I'm pretty sure I know a lot more than you...

[BetaAsPhuck]

Ps: lol at using UK Pakistanis as the basis of your mistrust of Muslims.

Please reread this from my last post, note the underlined...

I have seen that time and time again, and that is a reason why people have a distrust of muslims. (I'm not saying I support blanket distrust of muslims, I am telling you that I believe it's a factor.)

Also I specifically wrote south-asians, meaning specifically; Pakistani, Indian and Bengali Muslims.

Though I have been told by a convert white Imam, that the problems (of ethnocentrism and racism specifically) that I brought up with him are identical in the Arab and ****lian communities.

[mlgpro]

The good thing is that the vast majority of Muslims think that their religion is perfect and good--same thing Christians do, when in fact it is false for both. Why are you trying to convince Muslims that their religion sucks? Isn't it better if you let them believe it's a force for good?

[mlgpro]

Also, the first Islamic empire ended up secular and steeped in science/philosophy. It was not like ISIS in any shape or form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

[taizer007]

their is no sane muslim or sane human being that would not condemn isis and slavery. Most muslims dont believe isis is muslim anyways. Their acts contradict the root of islam.


The so called muslims you guys have met are actually more similar to you than they are to being actual muslims, they have the same mindset of hating others without any knowledge of the world. They find ways to hate people without any reason. Its like me hating every atheist or christian for the actions of one man who shared a unpopular belief.

[mlgpro]

their is no sane muslim or sane human being that would not condemn isis and slavery. Most muslims dont believe isis is muslim anyways. Their acts contradict the root of islam.

This is correct 99.9%... ISIS is the result of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_jihadism

[mlgpro]

[BetaAsPhuck]

Why are you trying to convince Muslims that their religion sucks? Isn't it better if you let them believe it's a force for good?

What is considered good isn't universal. Some muslims believe slavery, flogging for sex outside marriage, and the death penalty for homosexuality, adultery, and apostasy are good. Some believe that Aisha was 9 at the time of 'consummation' (ie. rape) and believe that was good.

Fundamentalism (not necessarily Islamism, but literalism and conservatism) and Islamism make up a powerful and influential minority.

The minority who hold fundamentalist and Islamist ideologies are still extremely dangerous. ISIS are the minority, however they are extremely powerful and have changed the political landscape of the middle east, and have created the largest migrant crisis in the 21st century.

Although I find this woman's dislike for Islam extreme (though understandable when I hear her recount her perspection as a christian in Lebanon) I believe this is the best response I have every heard to the declaration that he majority of muslims are peaceful...

Please watch.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Cliffs: A minority of people in a society have been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in history.

I also find it ironic that the same muslims who complain about a minority of people demonizing Islam (the illuminati, the media, zionists, etc) will simultaneously complain that people spend too much time focusing on the minority of muslims (Islamists).

[mlgpro]

What is considered good isn't universal. Some muslims believe slavery, flogging for sex outside marriage, and the death penalty for homosexuality, adultery, and apostasy are good. Some believe that Aisha was 9 at the time of 'consummation' (ie. rape) and believe that was good.

Fundamentalism (not necessarily Islamism, but literalism and conservatism) and Islamism make up a powerful and influential minority.

The minority who hold fundamentalist and Islamist ideologies are still extremely dangerous. ISIS are the minority, however they are extremely powerful and have change the political landscape of the middle east, and have created the largest migrant crisis in the 21st century.

Although I find this woman's dislike for Islam extreme (though understandable when I hear her recount her perspection as a christian in Lebanon) I believe this is the best response I have every heard to the declaration that he majority of muslims are peaceful...

Please watch.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Cliffs: A minority of people in a society have been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in history.

I also find it ironic that the same muslims who complain about a minority of people demonizing Islam (the illuminati, the media, zionists, etc) will simultaneously complain that people spend too much time focusing on the minority of muslims.

You know what I meant when I meant good. I meant good as in good relative to this time period. Also keep in mind that it's not Christians that are the main victims of these Islamist groups, as the media suggests--it's Muslims. 82-97%* of the victims of Islamic terrorism have been Muslims. Muslims worldwide now, especially in the middle east, are more "extreme" because of Saudi influence, US foreign policy, and dictatorships (result of imperialism). Muslims in their golden age were remarkably different. The Muslims here in America, though, are stellar folk.

EDIT: Also, it is not debatable that America clearly overreacted to 9/11. Al Qaeda started it, but America completely destabilized a region and caused the deaths of 1 million+ people as revenge. That's bound to spread extremism. ISIS is not a natural offshoot Muslim ideologies--it was a reaction to the Iraq war. The insurgents who were fighting against America in Iraq are now ISIS. Read the wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...and_the_Levant

And I saw the video when it was first released.

*http://m.state.gov/md195555.htm

[BetaAsPhuck]

You know what I meant when I meant good. I meant good as in good relative to this time period.

I hope you watched the video, like I said the good majority does not negate the extremely dangerous and powerful minority.

Go to Pakistan and openly and publicly declare apostasy. The minority are the ones who will threaten you, and I would take those threats seriously.

Also keep in mind that it's not Christians that are the main victims of these Islamist groups, as the media suggests--it's Muslims. 82-97%* of the victims of Islamic terrorism have been Muslims.

I am well aware of that.

I also implied that when I wrote about the migrant crisis (as far as I'm aware the majority of people displaced from their homes are muslims).

Whatever you may think of me, my compassion also extends to muslims. I have written here that I have no problem with progressive/modernist muslims - in fact they are in as much danger as critical non-muslims in regards to Islamism (Maajid Nawaaz and Irshad Manji have received death threats).

EDIT: Also, it is not debatable that America clearly overreacted to 9/11. Al Qaeda started it, but America completely destabilized a region and caused the deaths of 1 million+ people as revenge. That's bound to spread extremism. ISIS is not a natural offshoot Muslim ideologies--it was a reaction to the Iraq war. The insurgents who were fighting against America in Iraq are now ISIS. Read the wiki.

This isn't about US foreign policy.

This is a response to you questioning why challenge Islam.

However...

The notion (by some, not necessarily yourself) that you can't draw a metaphorical line from Quran and Hadith to the beliefs and practices of ISIS is dishonest.

They are explicitly influenced by Islam. They are Islamists. Even if it is a 'response' (which IMO is often used as an attempt to minimize responsibility of Islamists, and put primary responsibility on US) it is an Islamic influenced response.

Even many muslims themselves will acknowledge the influence that the Quran and Hadith have on ISIS. Even if they insist that it is a perverted interpretation of Islam, they do not deny the influence of Islam.

[boseador]

You are bound to fail if you think you are going to reform Islam and the whole Islamic world. The only solution is the eradication of Islam.

Show Muslims the truth about Islam and they will leave. We need imams who led prayers leaving Islam and leading the way for the rest.

[mlgpro]

Islam is a highly interpretable religion (due to all the contradictions) that can mold into many shapes (like in the Islamic Golden Age). So, yes , Salafi Jihadism was an Islamic 'response' (read the wiki) to the Soviet-Afghan war and was further amplified by Saudi influence and US foreign policy. it is a horrible thing for the holy sites of the Muslim world to be located in a Wahhabi regime. Wahhabism, as you know was founded in the 1700s and without it, the Islamic 'response' to all the things I mentioned probably would have been different. But, if the US didn't destabilize and kill so many, the soil wouldn't have been fertile enough for these Islamist groups to rapidly multiple. And if you saw the Salafi Jihadist chart I showed above, Islamism was very rare prior to the early 1990s.

[mlgpro]

You are bound to fail if you think you are going to reform Islam and the whole Islamic world. The only solution is the eradication of Islam.

Show Muslims the truth about Islam and they will leave. We need imams who led prayers leaving Islam and leading the way for the rest.

Islam actually has a secular history. The first Muslim empire is an example. There was as huge emphasis on science/philosophy and learning. There were tons of Muslims scientists, doctors, and philosophers. Like I said, It's a highly interpretable religion and there are many versions of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

[boseador]

Islam actually has a secular history. The first Muslim empire is an example. There was as huge emphasis on science/philosophy and learning. There were tons of Muslims scientists, doctors, and philosophers. Like I said, It's a highly interpretable religion and there are many versions of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

There's a huge potential for evil. Even during the so called "golden age" philosophers were threatened for their ideas. Al Ghazali threatened philosophers (Mu'tazilites) with death in one of his books for their ideas.