'Old school' vs. 'New school' training methods

[eyeoftheworld]

Back in the day, guys used to train 3-4 times a week, once a day. We are talking Olympic champions, not just 'ordinary' lifters. They also wouldn't go to a true maximum very often, usually preferring to save those extra kilograms for the platform in competition. They would still squat, do overheads and do pulls and core work along with the lifts.

Now, champions train up to 2-3 times a day, 6 days a week. Some even train every day of the week. They go very heavy, often in many cases. They often exclude 'assistance' lifts, eschewing them for the full lifts and squatting and some power variations.

What gives? Besides steroids and better recovery methods, why the huge difference? I suppose, given better nutrition and recovery, you could train 4-5 times a week and be okay.

Why go for limit lifts all the time, even daily limits? Why lift so heavy where it doesn't count unless you had no intention of competing and just wanted to see where you were? Why push it to the absolute limit, especially if you're not a pro, when not in competition?

If you are genetically well-suited to it, then that is different, but those people are rare. What the newer methods seem to do is get people to their peaks much faster but the burn-out is much greater. The older methods took somewhat longer but lifters seemed to last a longer period of time.

Not knocking anyone's methods, just curious to hear people's opinions as to why there is this huge change.

[Ka0s]

Don't know much about Olympic lifting, but if the records are going up I'd say it's working pretty well...

[GoJu]

the champions of today are lifting more than the champions of yesteryear

there was a time when the world record clean&jerk in the SHW class was below or around 220kg (held by an American I think!), today very strong 85's and the average 94kg guy can lift that weight, higher and higher weights are being lifted by especially smaller and smaller guys I'm guessing the extreme training is needed to approac the limit of the human body for a particular weight

[eyeoftheworld]

the champions of today are lifting more than the champions of yesteryear

there was a time when the world record clean&jerk in the SHW class was below or around 220kg (held by an American I think!), today very strong 85's and the average 94kg guy can lift that weight, higher and higher weights are being lifted by especially smaller and smaller guys I'm guessing the extreme training is needed to approac the limit of the human body for a particular weight

I would suppose that would be the most often used answer. I wonder if the methods of yesteryear used, with some modifications, would still work effectively? The S.A.I.D principle is sound, mind you, and it even makes sense. I don't dispute that it works.

[King922]

Not everyone trains that much though. Kendrick Farris is only training 5 or 6 days a week I forget exactly but he really doesnt do that much compared to others yet hes throwing up the WR in the clean and jerk!

[crackyflipside]

Not everyone trains that much though. Kendrick Farris is only training 5 or 6 days a week I forget exactly but he really doesnt do that much compared to others yet hes throwing up the WR in the clean and jerk!

They go to a max every day (majority of the time it's a volume max 10RM, 5RM, 3RM), train 5x wk M T W Th Sa, squats, pulls, and presses usually dropping the weight after and doing additional volume work. Max out on the competition lifts every Saturday with a 1-2RM front squat. More volume with general lifts out of competition, volume of specific lifts increases as competition gets close.

[slowman41]

strong post to signature ratio OP

In all seriousness though, I read somewhere that training above 80% is the best way to make progress, or something about how you should always be training >80%. I imagine the idea is training heavy frequently makes the body adapt to heavier weights faster.

[KRILLEN91]

strong post to signature ratio OP

In all seriousness though, I read somewhere that training above 80% is the best way to make progress, or something about how you should always be training >80%. I imagine the idea is training heavy frequently makes the body adapt to heavier weights faster.

possible bro-science answer but heres my opinion

it's more logical to train heavy. Say your max clean is 150kg (330lbs). If you're training at less than 80% you'd probs be doing reps around the 110-120kg range. That's all well and good but than there's a huge difference between going from cleaning 110kg-150kg in terms of the feeling. 110 is lightweight you can pull it with speed all the time and you can afford to slack on technique a bit. Moreover, if you're not reguarly using weight around your max than pretty soon your 150 max is going to become pretty hit/miss since you're not used to dealing with the heavyweight.
Alternatively if your max is 150 you could train around the 90-95% range regularly so you'll always be hitting at least 140 in sessions. After a while that 140 becomes a walk in the park and that'll go towards boosting your max faster than if you were just trying to peak your max by mucking around with lightweight.

[eyeoftheworld]

I should have added that much of the time, guys like Schemansky, Vlasov and Kono were training above 80% from what I have seen. However, they were not maxing-out very often is what I really meant.

Slow: Yeah, it is a strong ratio. I believe Abajiev's findings are true, but for the right lifter. I just happen to like the saying as it sounds epic.

[slowman41]

I should have added that much of the time, guys like Schemansky, Vlasov and Kono were training above 80% from what I have seen. However, they were not maxing-out very often is what I really meant.

Slow: Yeah, it is a strong ratio. I believe Abajiev's findings are true, but for the right lifter. I just happen to like the saying as it sounds epic.

you didn't have to change it, I just figured I would give you some sh!t about it, nothing personal.

I agree to an extent as well, mostly because "daily max" could be 70% some days, its all based on how you feel. Thats one of the biggest things I feel that people overlook about the broz/abajiev method.

[glennpendlay]

sometimes bro-science makes sense...

possible bro-science answer but heres my opinion

it's more logical to train heavy. Say your max clean is 150kg (330lbs). If you're training at less than 80% you'd probs be doing reps around the 110-120kg range. That's all well and good but than there's a huge difference between going from cleaning 110kg-150kg in terms of the feeling. 110 is lightweight you can pull it with speed all the time and you can afford to slack on technique a bit. Moreover, if you're not reguarly using weight around your max than pretty soon your 150 max is going to become pretty hit/miss since you're not used to dealing with the heavyweight.
Alternatively if your max is 150 you could train around the 90-95% range regularly so you'll always be hitting at least 140 in sessions. After a while that 140 becomes a walk in the park and that'll go towards boosting your max faster than if you were just trying to peak your max by mucking around with lightweight.

[glennpendlay]

Not everyone trains that much though. Kendrick Farris is only training 5 or 6 days a week I forget exactly but he really doesnt do that much compared to others yet hes throwing up the WR in the clean and jerk!

Kyle Pierce is Kendricks coach. It is no secret that my coaching philosophy is somewhat at odds with Kyle's philosophy. I am going to interview Kyle in a couple of weeks, it will be on video, and will go as long as needed to hash out our differences.

Any suggestions on what to ask him or where to take the conversation are welcomed...

The interview will be on Pendlay.com

[crackyflipside]

Kyle Pierce is Kendricks coach. It is no secret that my coaching philosophy is somewhat at odds with Kyle's philosophy. I am going to interview Kyle in a couple of weeks, it will be on video, and will go as long as needed to hash out our differences.

Any suggestions on what to ask him or where to take the conversation are welcomed...

The interview will be on Pendlay.com

Check your PM box.

Ask him about how flexible he is adjusting his program to suit particular weaknesses in a lifter, like a lifter with a strong back but weak legs, would he increase loading/volume on squats or replace some pulls with squats. Something like that.

[eyeoftheworld]

you didn't have to change it, I just figured I would give you some sh!t about it, nothing personal.

I agree to an extent as well, mostly because "daily max" could be 70% some days, its all based on how you feel. Thats one of the biggest things I feel that people overlook about the broz/abajiev method.

I didn't change it due to that. I still think it's an awesome quote, but so is quoting the famous Taoist philosopher that I am currently quoting.

I realize that the 'daily max' might be 100kg, say, and your best is 120kg, or maybe it might be 122 and so on.

As I said, I don't think this methodology is wrong. I am just wondering why and how it evolved into this and if the old method could still be viable.

Glenn, I would be interested in knowing Kyle's philosophy on assistance lifts versus yours. A compare and contrast, if you will.

Thanks.

[nova6868]

Kyle Pierce is Kendricks coach. It is no secret that my coaching philosophy is somewhat at odds with Kyle's philosophy. I am going to interview Kyle in a couple of weeks, it will be on video, and will go as long as needed to hash out our differences.

Any suggestions on what to ask him or where to take the conversation are welcomed...

The interview will be on Pendlay.com

This will be a very interesting interview. Looking forward to it.

[glennpendlay]

me too...

[Bhava]

I thought the Bulgarian method is old school and came to this thread to see what's the new school.

Guess I was wrong, but honestly, I know nothing about training for real.

[Stephan514]

I thought the Bulgarian method is old school and came to this thread to see what's the new school.

Guess I was wrong, but honestly, I know nothing about training for real.

Same. I don't know anything either I figured it'd be a Bulgarian method vs the Chinese. Would really like to know the difference.

[crackyflipside]

Same. I don't know anything either I figured it'd be a Bulgarian method vs the Chinese. Would really like to know the difference.

Russian Method - 70-80's, Breaking lifts into parts with emphasis on heavy weights, competition lifts with mostly medium weights, intensity is cycled to peak during major competitions (long term periodization), huge emphasis on general strength by assistance lifts.

Chinese Method - 90's, Breaking lifts into parts with emphasis on volume, competition lifts with heavy weights, intensity is cycled throughout the week, huge emphasis on hypertrophy and general strength by assistance lifts.

Old Bulgarian Method - 80's, Abadjiev does singles 90%+, then volume work ~80%, Sn C+J FS BS Pcl Ps. Only closely related lifts specific to the competition lifts. Strength building is specific to competition lifts.

New Bulgarian Method - 90's, Abadjiev pretty much only does singles to 90%+, Sn C+J FS, extreme specific strength.

[Stephan514]

Russian Method - 70-80's, Breaking lifts into parts with emphasis on heavy weights, competition lifts with mostly medium weights, intensity is cycled to peak during major competitions (long term periodization), huge emphasis on general strength by assistance lifts.

Chinese Method - 90's, Breaking lifts into parts with emphasis on volume, competition lifts with heavy weights, intensity is cycled throughout the week, huge emphasis on hypertrophy and general strength by assistance lifts.

Old Bulgarian Method - 80's, Abadjiev does singles 90%+, then volume work ~80%, Sn C+J FS BS Pcl Ps. Only closely related lifts specific to the competition lifts. Strength building is specific to competition lifts.

New Bulgarian Method - 90's, Abadjiev pretty much only does singles to 90%+, Sn C+J FS, extreme specific strength.

In your opinion which method do you think works best? Or does it depend more on the person?

[eyeoftheworld]

In your opinion which method do you think works best? Or does it depend more on the person?

Probably depends.

[crackyflipside]

In your opinion which method do you think works best? Or does it depend more on the person?

Every method there has turned out world record holders in both competition lifts. The best method is the one that works for you.

[someonefat]

In your opinion which method do you think works best? Or does it depend more on the person?

hard work

[slowman41]

In your opinion which method do you think works best? Or does it depend more on the person?

IMO,

someone who is coming into this somewhat weak and small would benefit from a chinese or russian style program that has assistance to build muscle and bulk up all around.

someone who comes into this with a strength background or is naturally bigger/stronger, would probably be a better candidate for a bulgarian style program, however could obviously benefit from any of them.

[Gaash]

As long as one is lifting heavy, eating right, and sleeping right, other differences make little difference. I think the wide variety of training programs that various champions have used illustrates this point pretty clearly.