Skinny fat newbie: cut, bulk, or maintain?

[rhollan]

So far I've been working out with weights on a three day split for 45 minutes, with 45 minutes of cardio after lifting, and it seems to be working for me:

Started at 158 lbs, 24% BF

After 7 weeks: 155 lbs, 20% BF (was as low as 153.4 lbs)

My lifts have been steadily improving, despite losing a bit of weight (newbie gains), but I wonder if I can do more.

I've calculated my metabolic requirements at around 2400 kcal a day, and consume between 1900 and 2100 kcal a day, carb-heavy in the morning, and protein heavy at night.

I started out hungry on that diet, but settled into it, though now I'm getting hungry again: yesterday I ate the following:

Breakfast:

1 package sugar free oatmeal (100 calories)
1 tsp PB (40 kcal)
all-white lox omalelette (60 kcal egg whites, 160 kcal lox)

Snack:

Banana (100 kcal)

Lunch:

Ham sandwich with PB on whole grain toast (300 kcal)

Snack:

Carb bar (140 kcal)
Beef jerky (80 kcal)

Dinner:

Grilled chiecken salad, no dressing (400 kcal)

Dinner 2 (this was an exception for me, but I was really hungry for a change):

8 oz salmon filet (200 kcal, with frying oil)
1 small head broccoli (50 kcal).

Pre-bed snack:

1 slice provolone (100 kcal)

The wierd thing is, that's barely 1600 kcal, though I felt (a) hungrier, and (b) like I over-ate!

I had a more substantial breakfast today:

2 packages sugar-free oatmeal with 1 tsp PB (240 kcal)
4 oz lean ham (120 kcal)
Apple (80 kcal)

440 kcal.

Besides lunch and dinner, since today is a workout day, I will have a 140 kcal carb bar an hour before workout (afternoon snack), and a 300 kcal protein/carb shake after, so AM snack, lunch and dinner are allocated 2000-440-140-300=1120 kcal. Lunch will be a ham + PB sandwich with a spinach salad (360 kcal). Snack will be a banana, some beef jerky, and a few walnuts (200 kcal), leaving 560 kcal for dinner and a pre-bed snack. (Dinner will likely be 400-500 kcal of chili and a slice of whole grain bread).

I'm wondering if I'm subconsciously eating less than I think, and whether this is a good or bad thing (slowing metabolism).

Given the 20% body fat, I'm tempted to continue dieting, but I am still quite weak (I can squat my weight, for example), and want to build muscle. That leads me to believe I should bulk, not diet, but then the ugly 20% BF figure comes into my mind.

For lack of a clear sense of direction, I've kept doing what I've been doing, (as I have lost fat and gained some muscke) but wonder if it's optimal.

One concern is my cardio regime: I'll put in 45 minutes on the mill (3+ miles), or bike (16+ miles), trying to hit 80% max heart rate. I just can't go much slower! (say 65% max HR). It's too hard on the bike, and boring on the mill. However, I have found that it's getting harder to hit 80% max heart rate (139) anymore.

Something inside is tellimg me, "Eat more! Lift harder", but that 20% BF figure is haunting me.

Has anyone been in a similar situation, how did they deal with it, and what were their results?

[freebirdmac]

I'm in a similar situation. Now at 110 and around 22%bf. Lost bf and gained muscle at the same time. Like you, the newbie steam hasn't run out yet but also like you, I know it will. Plus I really can't afford to lose another pound no matter what the bf% is.

I've pushed myself to get my cals up to at least maintenace (1650). It's hard as heck to eat all the food, and forcing myself to eat even when I'm not hungry. But it must be done. I don't have long term results yet, but what I have seen in the last 3 weeks is highly encouraging. Going from 1350 cals to 1650 has only brought me larger lbm gains, larger bf losses, with an overall weight gain. During this time I also dropped cardio and just lift 3x a week with a trainer for an hour each session. Amazing what eating enough can do.

It's very hard to ignore the fat while gaining muscle. I hate the way my lower body looks. But the muscle has to be there first. And at least so far, my muscles sure loved the addtional calories. And amazingly it hasn't stalled bf losses.

[ChocoChick]

My recommendation is to eat at maintenance or a little higher and to lift heavy. You can continue to do a recomposition. I do think you need to round out your meals more. See the guidelines I wrote here.

As you become more cardiovascularly fit, it will be necessary to up the challenge on your cardio. Have you looked into HIIT?

[rhollan]

I'm in a similar situation. Now at 110 and around 22%bf. Lost bf and gained muscle at the same time. Like you, the newbie steam hasn't run out yet but also like you, I know it will. Plus I really can't afford to lose another pound no matter what the bf% is.

I've pushed myself to get my cals up to at least maintenace (1650). It's hard as heck to eat all the food, and forcing myself to eat even when I'm not hungry. But it must be done. I don't have long term results yet, but what I have seen in the last 3 weeks is highly encouraging. Going from 1350 cals to 1650 has only brought me larger lbm gains, larger bf losses, with an overall weight gain. During this time I also dropped cardio and just lift 3x a week with a trainer for an hour each session. Amazing what eating enough can do.

It's very hard to ignore the fat while gaining muscle. I hate the way my lower body looks. But the muscle has to be there first. And at least so far, my muscles sure loved the addtional calories. And amazingly it hasn't stalled bf losses.

Thanks!

My strategy has been to try to diet a little - not more than 500 kcal under maintenance as long as I make muscle gains. Then, switch to maintenance, and then to bulking, as necessary. I know from my strength that there is very little muscle under the fat, though so far I've gained definition in my upper arms, calves (well, they were always good and strong), and a bit in my quads (squats!). Abs, ... well 20% BF says it all - I can see the top two a bit if I tense, and they are getting stronger (crunches getting easier), but I know that cutting would reveal very little.

What I wonder is whether I should switch to maintenance sooner rather than later in hopes of making more muscle gains. My trainer says no. Heck, he'd have me eat less!

Before starting to get into shape, my diet was very carb/junk heavy, and I'd drink beer when playing pool (though not to excess). So, my diet is a lot cleaner now.

I think I am undereating, if anything. A recent two pound gain seams to have reinforced doing that, though I weighed at a different time as usual. I know my body fat has gone down (except in the troublesome gut area) -- rings are loooser on my fingers.

One thing I've noticed is that my diet appears high in sodium, which will contribute to water retention. I've tried to keep the Na:K ratio in check by eating bananas (high in K), and get plenty of omega 3 healthy fats (fatty fish), and keep the omega6 : omega3 ratio in check by suplementing with fish oil as well.

[rhollan]

My recommendation is to eat at maintenance or a little higher and to lift heavy. You can continue to do a recomposition. I do think you need to round out your meals more. See the guidelines I wrote here.

As you become more cardiovascularly fit, it will be necessary to up the challenge on your cardio. Have you looked into HIIT?

Thanks!

I've been striving for 1.25 g. protein per lb. of lean body mass., and 20-30% healthy fats (usually from PB, walnuts, olive oil, and fish oil pills to even out the omega 6 to omega 3 ratio).

I try to hit 400 kcal per meal five times a day, but it isn't perfect. If I eat anything significant before a workout, I perform worse. So, I've stuck to a medium protein/carb lunch at 12:00, a carb/protein bar with some protein at 3:30, workout from 4:30 to 6:00 (weights then cardio), a PWO shake at 6:15), and dinner at 8:00.

As for HIIT, my trainer is focusing on endurance, which has improved. My concern is that that is contrary to preventing post-WO catabolism. But, then again, I only burn about 250-300 kcal doing post-WO cardio. I also don't think I am quite fit enough for HIIT, though I do try to make the last 2 minutes on the mill and 3 minutes on the bike as hard as I can.

[freebirdmac]

I don't think the generic trainer has a lot of experience with skinny-fat people. They see high bf and that's it. They are so used to high bf = overweight that skinny-fat people are put on the same diet as someone who is overweight. Cardio is another indication. I don't know what a good scale weight is for you, but if you don't need to lose scale weight you shouldn't be doing a lot of it when your goal is to increase muscle mass.

I had your same plan and was also doing ok. The ladies on the female bodybuilding forum finally banged it through my head to get my cals up. Worry about the bf later. I can always track my progress and make adjustments if it appears like I am gaining too much bf back. And yes that is scary.

I'd get my cals up to at least maintenance and see where that takes you after 4 weeks. I wish I had the data on myself for the first 9 weeks, I only have the last 3.

Your data, as well as mine will be of value to those skinny-fat people coming later. There are quite a few of us women on the forums, and we all hear the same thing, eat about 200 above maintenance and get the muscles. But no one has offered up any data to help us see someone else's progress.

[rhollan]

I don't think the generic trainer has a lot of experience with skinny-fat people. They see high bf and that's it. They are so used to high bf = overweight that skinny-fat people are put on the same diet as someone who is overweight. Cardio is another indication. I don't know what a good scale weight is for you, but if you don't need to lose scale weight you shouldn't be doing a lot of it when your goal is to increase muscle mass.

Snipped the rest of your response.

Ideal weight for me is supposed to be 148 lbs., based on height, and I'm betwen 153.4 and 155 lbs. So far, I have managed to add muscle and lose fat on a 500 kcal/day deficit, and am tempted to stick to what works, though the 1.6 lb gain over 3 days was disconcerting. I think I just weighed at the wrong time of day (AM, right after breakfast).

I do worry that the cardio is cutting into my muscle gains, but they have been positive so far, and I do appreciate the cardiovascular and endurance improvements. I actually like the cardio: it's the easiest part of my work out. And, I only burn 250-300 calories doing cardio. I replenish with a 300 kcal, 42g protein shake PWO, and then have dinner.

I wouldn't mind gaining muscle, along with weight, as long as my body fat percentage went down. I just don't know if a faster reduction in body fat percentage will occur with bulking or dieting. How is 2.2 lbs. LBM gain and 5 lbs. fat loss in 6 weeks for a 155 lb. individual? Good? Poor?

I'll have to raise these concerns with my trainer. So far he's been pushing me to cut calories because of the 20% BF, but is also impressed with my LBM gain and fat loss. What's worrysome is this: the gym held a fund-raising "gambling" party with the proceeds going to charity, and offered free (junk) food and alcohol. I abstained from both, drinking water with a wedge of lemon, while whittling away $100 at the blackjack table, and other gym members thought it odd. I take my diet very seriously, and my thankgiving cheat was my usual diet with only one unhealthy meal out (seared Ahi tuna, which was O.K., but the gelato desert wasn't!) in 7 weeks. I get the feeling they are setting low calorie intake levels expecting people to cheat. I almost never do.

[freebirdmac]

Check your private messages.

[rhollan]

Check your private messages.

I did. Thanks for the data.

[rhollan]

Well, today I weightd in at 152.4 lbs. If the impedance scale is to be trusted (I don't, my BF is up to 22%).

I can't see myself losing 3 lbs. in a week, and gaining 1.5 in body fat overall: that would mean losing 4.5 lbs. of muscle! I know such impedance measurements are inaccuate (and that weight included a t-shirt and shorts, as all my weights do). Besides, my weights are up.

I like the 152.4 figure -- it probably translates to 148-150 lbs. naked.

So, I'm thinking of switching from cutting to maintenance and lift as hard as I can, keeping the cardio routine, and monitoring weight weekly. That would mean adding 500 calories a day.

I've also noticed that it is getting harder to hit my 80% target heart rate for cardio -- my body is getting used to the exercise.

At maintenance, I theoretically shouldn't gain weight, but since I've been gaining muscle on a caloric deficit (gotta love newbie gains), perhaps I can gain MORE muscle and still lose fat. In any case, a switch from dieting to bulking is best going through a few weeks at maintenance.