Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Routine

[nathangreen]

I'm on a slight caloric deficit, how much I don't really know (I'm messing around with it).

I've lost nearly 10 lbs on all lifts and feel exhausted. For the past 2 weeks while on a deficit I've felt this way.

Is this normal? I just feel like absolute CRAP.

You aren't on a slight deficient if you've lost 10lb in 2 weeks...even including water weight. Of course extreme cutting will make you feel like crap. Slow down the deficit to ~1lb/week and you'll probably feel better. Feeling like crap is probably just a truth for all cutters in a long enough or steep enough diet, but you can limit it and it shouldn't be "absolute crap" so fast. I dieted for 5 months slowly and got to 8% and the most i felt was sluggish and gassed as the gym, but nothing more extreme than that. Kept my volume up high or I probably wouldn't of even felt that

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

You aren't on a slight deficient if you've lost 10lb in 2 weeks...even including water weight. Of course extreme cutting will make you feel like crap. Slow down the deficit to ~1lb/week and you'll probably feel better. Feeling like crap is probably just a truth for all cutters in a long enough or steep enough diet, but you can limit it and it shouldn't be "absolute crap" so fast. I dieted for 5 months slowly and got to 8% and the most i felt was sluggish and gassed as the gym, but nothing more extreme than that. Kept my volume up high or I probably wouldn't of even felt that

Sorry, I meant 10 lbs on my lifts, not 10 lbs of weight lost.

Example:

I got 220 on bench press 3 weeks ago for 10 reps which was a PR. This week I got 210 for 10 reps and there was no way I was going to get an 11th. It's been like that for all my lifts for 2 weeks during my cut (which could be anywhere from 200 to 500 calorie deficit, I'm not 100% sure).

Apologize for the confusion.

[eriram]

Man, I finally took the plunge and started this. More of a minimalistic approach to it as talked about in a previous thread. Starting numbers:

BW 145

Total reps 30 using rest pause
Squat 185x8
Chin BWx8
RDL 255x8*
Calves 225x17
Bench 125x8
Press 85x8

*Rest paused to 60

Reflection:
I know the press is not really suggested in the routines Kelei writes but I really would like to press 120x8 for bodyweight just because it's a goal of mine. Rest pause was different on each exercise. Calves was basically 10-15 seconds and I'd be ready for 3-5 reps. Bench was about 30 seconds and I had to increase it to 45seconds toward the end. Same for RDL's. Press was pretty much a minute to a minute and 15 seconds for me to get off 3 reps!

One of the main reasons I FINALLY decided to try the routine is that I noticed that while working in the 5-8 (I would do one-two sets HIT style) range I was getting stronger for my upper body but I believe it was all neurological.

Ex. I was stuck at 8 reps on my bench for a long time, same on the press, and I was stuck on 7 reps for my chin. So I bumped up the weight and got 5 then I'd get 6 and progress each week like clockwork on till the aforementioned "stuck" numbers, 8 and 7. I went up from 135 on the bench to 150 and on the chin I went up from BW+20 to BW+35.

BUT when I'd lower the weight, to have a go at a higher rep range I noticed I couldn't go past the 8 on the bench for 135. And BW I could muster only 10 reps. After a week off that dropped and my bench is 125 for 8! BW feels like a good place to start for the rest pause on chins.

It's like I got "better" at doing the exercises, but didn't actually get stronger, of course size was non-existent. So here I am giving this a go. I'll report progress down the road.

[Alyion]

Sorry, I meant 10 lbs on my lifts...................

Are you keeping the total volume the same or have you dropped it?
When did you last deload?
Where are you taking calories from to make a deficit? (fat/protein/carbs)
Why did you drop to 210 from 220? I would of just stayed with 220 unless it dropped below 6 reps.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

1) Are you keeping the total volume the same or have you dropped it?
2) When did you last deload?
3) Where are you taking calories from to make a deficit? (fat/protein/carbs)
4) Why did you drop to 210 from 220? I would of just stayed with 220 unless it dropped below 6 reps.

1) I switched it up. I was doing 50 reps with a push/pull/legs/rest/upper/rest/rest to a 30 rep push/pull/legs/push/pull/legs/rest. So it's a possibility the switch up has something to do with it. Total volume essentially stayed the same over the course of a week, I just started working out more days.

2) I just did a deload at the end of last week. Last week I worked out Monday & Tuesday then took the rest of the week off until this Monday (the 8th)

3) I cut ~200 cals from carbs, ~100 cals from fat and left protein the same which I'm 1 g/lb of bw (which I know is more than I need, but its what I've been doing, so its a constant).

4) I did 220 the first week of my cut and got 8 reps, so my next push workout, I tried 210 and got 10. I was thinking maybe it was a fluke and I'd be able to press 210 for 12 or something.

[Jasonk282]

1) I switched it up. I was doing 50 reps with a push/pull/legs/rest/upper/rest/rest to a 30 rep push/pull/legs/push/pull/legs/rest. So it's a possibility the switch up has something to do with it. Total volume essentially stayed the same over the course of a week, I just started working out more days.

2) I just did a deload at the end of last week. Last week I worked out Monday & Tuesday then took the rest of the week off until this Monday (the 8th)

3) I cut ~200 cals from carbs, ~100 cals from fat and left protein the same which I'm 1 g/lb of bw (which I know is more than I need, but its what I've been doing, so its a constant).

4) I did 220 the first week of my cut and got 8 reps, so my next push workout, I tried 210 and got 10. I was thinking maybe it was a fluke and I'd be able to press 210 for 12 or something.

Everything seems pretty normal, just coming off a deload, set a PR and you're cutting...As long as you are making composition improvements I would not even worry about the weight on the bar.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

Everything seems pretty normal, just coming off a deload, set a PR and you're cutting...As long as you are making composition improvements I would not even worry about the weight on the bar.

That's really hard. This is where I get in a cut and I'm just like screw it, then go back to maintenance/bulking. I think I'd be happy with maintaining strength even. And yeah, I can definitely see my abs a little better and my arms are getting a tad more vascular. It's a tough mental block to get around.

[nathangreen]

Sorry, I meant 10 lbs on my lifts, not 10 lbs of weight lost.

Example:

I got 220 on bench press 3 weeks ago for 10 reps which was a PR. This week I got 210 for 10 reps and there was no way I was going to get an 11th. It's been like that for all my lifts for 2 weeks during my cut (which could be anywhere from 200 to 500 calorie deficit, I'm not 100% sure).

Apologize for the confusion.

No, my mistake I read it wrong. Yes that is very unusual to lose that fast. But also remember it could be other things. Bad workouts happen sometimes whether bulking/cutting due to a multiple of possibilities..bad sleep/mindset, etc etc. If it continues I'd look hard at your diet or workout because lifts shouldn't plummet on a smart cut. I actually gained strength on some lifts. At worse you should maintain or experience some slight losses, but that shouldn't even be till you've been cutting a while

[Jasonk282]

That's really hard. This is where I get in a cut and I'm just like screw it, then go back to maintenance/bulking. I think I'd be happy with maintaining strength even. And yeah, I can definitely see my abs a little better and my arms are getting a tad more vascular. It's a tough mental block to get around.

I get that. You just have to remember that muscles don;t know if you have 200 or 50 lbs on the bar...just the stress that it causes. The best think I did in regards to my training was to stop worrying about home much weight I lift.

The ONLY thing I could see is that you don;t know exactly how much you are restricting your calories. it might be more than you thinl, which could effect your workouts.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

I get that. You just have to remember that muscles don;t know if you have 200 or 50 lbs on the bar...just the stress that it causes. The best think I did in regards to my training was to stop worrying about home much weight I lift.

The ONLY thing I could see is that you don;t know exactly how much you are restricting your calories. it might be more than you thinl, which could effect your workouts.

Very true on both statements. And I don't know because I only half ass kept track while on a recomp, so I had to do some guess work there.

[MortalEngine]

FAO of ThatOneLurker or anyone else who is interested. I remember that you are a proponent of Serge Nubret and his training philosophy (light-moderate weights with high reps and minimal rest between sets).

I've just got myself a power rack and full set of weights and set up a home gym - having a toddler has meant that finding time to go to the gym is near impossible! I've decided to take the opportunity to shake my routine up a little as I have to compromise on exercises in any case due to limitation of equipment. I came across Nubret's training style and it looks interesting.

This guy has a good breakdown of it http://skinnyfattransformation.com/s...pump-training/. Obviously as a natural it would be impossible (and too time consuming) to do the full routine, but the guy's modified programme is very doable.

What I'm confused about is how progression is built in. The concept is picking a weight that you can lift for 20,then the sets are 12,12,12,12 with dropsets if you can at the end. How would one progress on this? Increase reps of first set to 15, then add a little to the bar next session and so on?

I really like the idea; it's similar to rest/pause, time-efficient, and lowers the risk of injury. Any thoughts on the progression, or how the lighter weight range could be incorporated into Kelei's routine? Cheers.

[usertag]

i workout at home as i have home gym, so is this routine ok?

push: bench press, incline bench press, dumbbell flyes, bench dips
pull: pull up, supinated rows, rear delts flyes, bicep curl
leg: squat, standing calf raise, abs, deadlift (1 set)

rest between sets is 1 min, i can't do 30 sec as i have low stamina.

[necon76]

i workout at home as i have home gym, so is this routine ok?

push: bench press, incline bench press, dumbbell flyes, bench dips
pull: pull up, supinated rows, rear delts flyes, bicep curl
leg: squat, standing calf raise, abs, deadlift (1 set)

rest between sets is 1 min, i can't do 30 sec as i have low stamina.

You need a hamstring exercise like SLDL, & I'd switch bench dips for skullcrushers.

[usertag]

You need a hamstring exercise like SLDL, & I'd switch bench dips for skullcrushers.

ok thanks.

[dojsygo]

i workout at home as i have home gym, so is this routine ok?

push: bench press, incline bench press, dumbbell flyes, bench dips
pull: pull up, supinated rows, rear delts flyes, bicep curl
leg: squat, standing calf raise, abs, deadlift (1 set)

rest between sets is 1 min, i can't do 30 sec as i have low stamina.

For a home gym i wouldve done something like:

Push : bench-press, incline bench press, dumbbell flyes, overhead extensions, side lateral raises
Pull : pull-ups, chest-supported-row (or cambered-bar-row or t-bar-row) rear delt flyes, biceps curl with armblaster
Legs : squat, rdl, sissy-squat, glute-ham-raise, standing calf-raise, seated calf-raise (bar on knees\quads)

[Alyion]

Serge Nubret and his training philosophy (light-moderate weights with high reps and minimal rest between sets)............

I've never ran the routine (but I probably will try it sometime in the future) but I would guess you increase the weight when you satisify the set/reps (so when you get x full sets of 12).

One thing you could do would be to just pick a 20rm and train the same way this routine does, and increase the weight when you hit 20 on your first set - either way you are increasing your 20rm.

[dojsygo]

Serge Nubret and his training philosophy (light-moderate weights with high reps and minimal rest between sets)............

I've never ran the routine (but I probably will try it sometime in the future) but I would guess you increase the weight when you satisify the set/reps (so when you get x full sets of 12).

One thing you could do would be to just pick a 20rm and train the same way this routine does, and increase the weight when you hit 20 on your first set - either way you are increasing your 20rm.

Like Alyion says, do this routine with 15 or 20rm instead, this routine got a more balanced choice of exercises.

[DamonX]

Unsubbed by accident, re subbing

[Alyion]

Like Alyion says, do this routine with 15 or 20rm instead, this routine got a more balanced choice of exercises.

As an aside I would also mention that it may be worth doing a 15rm for the compounds anyways (and 20 for the isos) as Kelei isn't a particular fan of a 20rm. Still you may respond to it well, so no harm in trying both

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

Unsubbed by accident, re subbing

Man Sports Rep now? Congrats man! Good company.

[ThatOneLurker]

FAO of ThatOneLurker or anyone else who is interested. I remember that you are a proponent of Serge Nubret and his training philosophy (light-moderate weights with high reps and minimal rest between sets).

I've just got myself a power rack and full set of weights and set up a home gym - having a toddler has meant that finding time to go to the gym is near impossible! I've decided to take the opportunity to shake my routine up a little as I have to compromise on exercises in any case due to limitation of equipment. I came across Nubret's training style and it looks interesting.

This guy has a good breakdown of it http://skinnyfattransformation.com/s...pump-training/. Obviously as a natural it would be impossible (and too time consuming) to do the full routine, but the guy's modified programme is very doable.

What I'm confused about is how progression is built in. The concept is picking a weight that you can lift for 20,then the sets are 12,12,12,12 with dropsets if you can at the end. How would one progress on this? Increase reps of first set to 15, then add a little to the bar next session and so on?

I really like the idea; it's similar to rest/pause, time-efficient, and lowers the risk of injury. Any thoughts on the progression, or how the lighter weight range could be incorporated into Kelei's routine? Cheers.

When I was lurking through Serge's responses to his thread he said that you'd add very little weight the next session if you were able to complete all 6 sets of 12.

If you'd like to add a Kelei twist to it then you'd take a 15RM and once you could complete 18 reps in your first set you'd add weight to the bar, or pick a 20RM and once you can complete 24 reps in your first set you'd add weight etc..

10RM --> 12RM
15RM --> 18RM
20RM --> 24RM

All of these represent a 20% increase in rep strength.


The problem with Nubret's routine is that it is based completely off feel (adding weight when you 'feel' it's necessary, performing sets and stopping when you 'feel' it's sufficient; things which if you're a natty don't work very well without gear). The routine that Serge posted is just a lower volume of what he actually did. He didn't necessarily count sets, just performed them until he felt it was sufficient which is much more than the 6 sets he prescribed to nattys. There's stories of him benching for an hour straight before continuing on with the rest of his workout as well as performing 25 sets of leg extensions.

[DamonX]

Man Sports Rep now? Congrats man! Good company.

Thank you, been with them since last December.. you just didn't notice till now

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

Thank you, been with them since last December.. you just didn't notice till now

Well crap, my bad. Late congrats! Haha.

[MortalEngine]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys. I think a 15rm aiming to hit 18 on first set sounds good. A 20rm hitting 24 sounds brutal! What should total reps be roughly if I was doing 30 total on a 10rm before? 60? I did my first push session last night. I picked too light weights though so it wasn't that much of a struggle.

Working out at home is very different from the gym; I'm enjoying it, but trying to find compromises with the equipment is interesting. How does this breakdown look?

LEGS
Back squats
RDL
Barbell hip thrusts (these have worked wonders for my lower back pain)
Barbell lunges
Calf raises

PUSH
Flat bench press
Dips
Incline dumbbell flyes
Lateral raises
*Need another tricep exercise I think - no pulley system though
Calf raises

PULL
Pullups
Barbell rows
Reverse flyes
Barbell curls
Lateral raises
Calf raises

It's an enjoyable challenge trying to make things work with limited equipment. I have a power rack, olympic barbell with 140kg weights and old standard size dumbbell bars with loads of standard size plates.

[davo26]

For a home gym i wouldve done something like:

Push : bench-press, incline bench press, dumbbell flyes, overhead extensions, side lateral raises
Pull : pull-ups, chest-supported-row (or cambered-bar-row or t-bar-row) rear delt flyes, biceps curl with armblaster
Legs : squat, rdl, sissy-squat, glute-ham-raise, standing calf-raise, seated calf-raise (bar on knees\quads)

interested in that armblaster quote. googled it and saw its the same bit of equipment as my gyms got. tried it yesterday and yep, curls felt good.

anyone else used one? i youtubed a few vids and still see people rocking their body tho, so wondered if it really is that good at maintaining strict form. anyone used one for tri pushdowns too?

thinking of buying one for home, so interested in opinions.

[ThatOneLurker]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys. I think a 15rm aiming to hit 18 on first set sounds good. A 20rm hitting 24 sounds brutal! What should total reps be roughly if I was doing 30 total on a 10rm before? 60? I did my first push session last night. I picked too light weights though so it wasn't that much of a struggle.

If you did 30 total reps with a 10RM then do 45 total reps with a 15RM.

[Alyion]

armblaster

My old gym had one too, but tbh I didn't care much for it - it basically forces your arms forward slightly and tucks them a bit better to help reduce swinging and using your front delts to help the lift like a preacher curl. You can still easily cheat with them by rocking (which you can't do as much when you are seated on a machine/preacher curl) so you might as well just keep your ego in check when doing normal bb curls.

If you can get one for dirt cheap though it can give you a little variation which isn't bad.

[Bersalious]

Sorry for the dumb question but I couldn't find the answer on any of the pages and I just want to clarify this so I don't do the wrong thing. Where it says "I recommend using an 8-15RM for most exercises" does that mean I see what I can PB with then just go on with normal? For example, I do 8 reps at 20kg to failure then do something like 40 reps at 8kg? Then next week attempt to up the weight?

[Alyion]

Pick a weight you can get at least 8 reps and keep lifting it until you get 12 reps. Isolation's you can go to 15 reps on before increasing the weight.

I.e.

workout 1

20kgX8

workout 2
20kgX10

workout 3
20kgX11

workout 4
20kgX12

workout 5
22.5kgX8

[gomez26]

From a pure bodybuilding perspective compound exercises aren't essential, they're simply more time efficient (because they hit more muscles) than isolation exercises. It's absolutely possible to build a great physique using only isolation exercises although you'd need to perform a greater total number of exercises to cover everything.

A high volume of flyes + some extra tricep work will certainly get the job done in your case. Unless you're an athlete in a sport that would benefit specifically from additional pressing strength there's no actual need to perform presses at all.

from a purely theoretical pt of view i would agree, but i would point out that the the addictive endorphin response is much greater when using compound exercises - a factor very important when taking consistency into account.