Pat Mendes tested positive

[Torrtrefireto]

Nomatter what anyone says Broz has created a decent amount of fairly good lifters running out of some tiny ass Las Vegas gym (I know they moved but still) and I guarantee that Broz/Mendes/Gilbert's videos inspired hundreds if not thousands of people to get involved in weightlifting which will end up benefiting the sport tremendously. I know the USAW would have never gotten a penny from me if I hadn't seen Broz's videos, and I'm sure its a similar tale with a lot of others too

[WHT_LIGHTNING]

Nomatter what anyone says Broz has created a decent amount of fairly good lifters running out of some tiny ass Las Vegas gym (I know they moved but still) and I guarantee that Broz/Mendes/Gilbert's videos inspired hundreds if not thousands of people to get involved in weightlifting which will end up benefiting the sport tremendously. I know the USAW would have never gotten a penny from me if I hadn't seen Broz's videos, and I'm sure its a similar tale with a lot of others too

This is very true. It might not have been the sole reason I got involved, but it definitely was part of it.

[raffiki]

We've all been having this Mendes conversation since what, like 2009-2010? From everything I've seen the kid's been getting blasted and ridiculed by the kind people at the USAW for the duration of it. Seems like there's a small group of people cheering him on and waiting to see what he'll pull off, and a much larger group just waiting to jump on him if he trips up. That's what we're seeing right now.

You're right, 176/207 isn't "A" Class, but I remember when Shane Hamman only pulled off 160/190 in a comp (against me, no less) and came back to hit 180/225 six months later. Yeah, Hamman was a 1008lb squatter in the USPF (the non-tested powerlifting federation) and I'm sure he was no squeaky-clean AAS virgin. Difference is, he could put on his nice southern drawl and talk Jeeezus just enough to woo the brass at USAW, they hugged his nuts so hard he had no choice but to improve. Everyone loved ol' Shane, and ol' Shane got everything he (underservedly) needed to improve.

So yeah, I'll call it as I see it. Mendes could have been medal material in this Olympic cycle if he was given the helping hand he deserved when he actually needed it instead of dealing with an uphill battle.

As for Broz, again the guy's been sharing his training philosophy since the late 90's on the Goheavy board. Krastev was laughed out of the USA by the same people who have been ridiculing Broz all these years. I think he's a damn good guy, and every bit the coach Abajiev is. What he's accomplished with a tiny storefront and some shoddy equipment is miraculous. Again, he's just in an environment that will never give a dissenting opinion a fair forum to express itself, much less any political or financial support.

As Malcolm Gladwell pointed out in "Outliers", it's amazing how little a person's actual talent determines how successful they are. It's all connections and opportunities.

Absurd post!

[SPFjudge]

We've all been having this Mendes conversation since what, like 2009-2010? From everything I've seen the kid's been getting blasted and ridiculed by the kind people at the USAW for the duration of it. Seems like there's a small group of people cheering him on and waiting to see what he'll pull off, and a much larger group just waiting to jump on him if he trips up. That's what we're seeing right now.

You're right, 176/207 isn't "A" Class, but I remember when Shane Hamman only pulled off 160/190 in a comp (against me, no less) and came back to hit 180/225 six months later. Yeah, Hamman was a 1008lb squatter in the USPF (the non-tested powerlifting federation) and I'm sure he was no squeaky-clean AAS virgin. Difference is, he could put on his nice southern drawl and talk Jeeezus just enough to woo the brass at USAW, they hugged his nuts so hard he had no choice but to improve. Everyone loved ol' Shane, and ol' Shane got everything he (underservedly) needed to improve.

So yeah, I'll call it as I see it. Mendes could have been medal material in this Olympic cycle if he was given the helping hand he deserved when he actually needed it instead of dealing with an uphill battle.

As for Broz, again the guy's been sharing his training philosophy since the late 90's on the Goheavy board. Krastev was laughed out of the USA by the same people who have been ridiculing Broz all these years. I think he's a damn good guy, and every bit the coach Abajiev is. What he's accomplished with a tiny storefront and some shoddy equipment is miraculous. Again, he's just in an environment that will never give a dissenting opinion a fair forum to express itself, much less any political or financial support.

As Malcolm Gladwell pointed out in "Outliers", it's amazing how little a person's actual talent determines how successful they are. It's all connections and opportunities.

To be fair the USPF was tested when shane competed there when its was the IPF affiliate.

[chigiskov]

Now this is a damn shame. Not because Mendes got popped, but because he IS very, very good and now all of that talent will marginalized and brushed aside like it was some kind of fluke. Mediocre people only need one excuse to completely write off an outlier like Mendes, and here it is. He'll be blacklisted in USAW for the rest of his career (if he's allowed to have one).

I also read Broz's response to it. He has no reason to apologize. "He" didn't cause any black eyes to the US community that weren't there for the past 30 years. If anything "he" was trying to help the USA out of our extended slump, and IT WAS WORKING. If we're going to blame coaches for positive tests by athletes on their teams then start by ripping Leo Totten, Mike Burgener, Lyn Jones, Dragomir Ciroslan, Mike Cohen, Glen Pendlay.... hell, throw them all in there. We have a long list of positive results in this wonderful country and there are some from every team out there. Everyone uses. EVERYONE. That IS the sport, unless you're some little buck fiddy bodyspacer who thinks a 100kg clean and jerk is noteworthy.

Problem is, Broz wasn't part of the good ole boys network that runs USAW. He gave the US an alternative training method and now people are going to jump all over his and his guys simply because people are ****s who only need an excuse to turn on those who do better than them. I don't think the USA deserves top caliber coaches like Krastev, Abajiev, and Broz. We're like a bunch of fickle women. I wonder what the political motivations were to popping Mendes with an out of meet test at this point in time. A little convenient and very fishy considering he his T/E was normal and he was popped for a substance that isn't useful on it's own. It's like getting arrested for rolling papers and no weed.

You want to kill a sport? Keep hunting it's best athletes so you can make an example. Keep validating the inflated funding of the USADA and screw the actual sports. USA Weightlifting is dead. Bury it right nest to the rest of this country.

Looks like Burgener is going to weasel his ****ing kid onto yet another undeserved US Team ("Team Nepotism"). Oh well, would have been interesting to see a US guy in the "A" flight for a change.

We've all been having this Mendes conversation since what, like 2009-2010? From everything I've seen the kid's been getting blasted and ridiculed by the kind people at the USAW for the duration of it. Seems like there's a small group of people cheering him on and waiting to see what he'll pull off, and a much larger group just waiting to jump on him if he trips up. That's what we're seeing right now.

You're right, 176/207 isn't "A" Class, but I remember when Shane Hamman only pulled off 160/190 in a comp (against me, no less) and came back to hit 180/225 six months later. Yeah, Hamman was a 1008lb squatter in the USPF (the non-tested powerlifting federation) and I'm sure he was no squeaky-clean AAS virgin. Difference is, he could put on his nice southern drawl and talk Jeeezus just enough to woo the brass at USAW, they hugged his nuts so hard he had no choice but to improve. Everyone loved ol' Shane, and ol' Shane got everything he (underservedly) needed to improve.

So yeah, I'll call it as I see it. Mendes could have been medal material in this Olympic cycle if he was given the helping hand he deserved when he actually needed it instead of dealing with an uphill battle.

As for Broz, again the guy's been sharing his training philosophy since the late 90's on the Goheavy board. Krastev was laughed out of the USA by the same people who have been ridiculing Broz all these years. I think he's a damn good guy, and every bit the coach Abajiev is. What he's accomplished with a tiny storefront and some shoddy equipment is miraculous. Again, he's just in an environment that will never give a dissenting opinion a fair forum to express itself, much less any political or financial support.

As Malcolm Gladwell pointed out in "Outliers", it's amazing how little a person's actual talent determines how successful they are. It's all connections and opportunities.

lol holy chit, strong first posts

[cortex99]

Absurd post!

Yet you can't refute it.

[cortex99]

To be fair the USPF was tested when shane competed there when its was the IPF affiliate.

I'll concede that the USPF was being tested at that time, however they lost their IPF sanction to the ADFPA/USAPL in part because they weren't living up to the IPF test standards.

The 1996 Jr. Nationals in Philly where Shane broke the 1008lb record was not tested. I was there that day. It was kind of a running joke among the lifters, and Robert Keller (the meet director) will tell you the same.

Shane got a pass on that one.

[flahexer]

This is very true. It might not have been the sole reason I got involved, but it definitely was part of it.

+1.

And I don't get this whole "they must juice because the max out everyday" thing. The body adapts to pretty much everything if you build up to it. Whether you'll start to put up numbers that are on an international level in a very short amount of time may depend on celltech, but it's naive to think that a PED-free athlete can't be training (/squatting to max) everyday. It's more about how you get to that point, how huge the volume of work around this is and how good the nutritional support is (on diet this is certainly a whole another beast and of course this might become a big issue for lifters who have to stay/diet down to a certain class).

But what about the experienced lifters here: You tell me that you can't imagine yourself to do (after warming up) a single set of max squats? One-two reps a day and your body can't recover from that till the next day after years and years of training? I don't put up numbers close to the Broz-Guys, but after training into it I have absolutely no problem of squatting to max everyday for 3-4sets and even do a single set of max-deadlifts everyday. But that's also pretty much it for the day (regarding lower body)! After 1-2months I barely got sore at all and keep it like that since almost half a year now. The trick is really just to cut down all the unneccessary and hindering assistance stuff around it.

I'm not suprised that Mendes cheated, but that's not because he did max-squats everyday, but because he no-no-no squatted 350Kg w/ 19yrs...

[lwild]

+1.

And I don't get this whole "they must juice because the max out everyday" thing. The body adapts to pretty much everything if you build up to it. Whether you'll start to put up numbers that are on an international level in a very short amount of time may depend on celltech, but it's naive to think that a PED-free athlete can't be training (/squatting to max) everyday. It's more about how you get to that point, how huge the volume of work around this is and how good the nutritional support is (on diet this is certainly a whole another beast and of course this might become a big issue for lifters who have to stay/diet down to a certain class).

But what about the experienced lifters here: You tell me that you can't imagine yourself to do (after warming up) a single set of max squats? One-two reps a day and your body can't recover from that till the next day after years and years of training? I don't put up numbers close to the Broz-Guys, but after training into it I have absolutely no problem of squatting to max everyday for 3-4sets and even do a single set of max-deadlifts everyday. But that's also pretty much it for the day (regarding lower body)! After 1-2months I barely got sore at all and keep it like that since almost half a year now. The trick is really just to cut down all the unneccessary and hindering assistance stuff around it.

I'm not suprised that Mendes cheated, but that's not because he did max-squats everyday, but because he no-no-no squatted 350Kg w/ 19yrs...

......

[raffiki]

Yet you can't refute it.

Neither can you prove it. Shane trained at the OTC and submitted to drug tests, so of course he had more support. He chose it. Pat refused it. However Pat did snatch 207 so apparently he didn't need the emotional support of USAW because he had something else. You can speculate all you want about Shane, but he squatted +900lbs under drug tests as well as totaling +420 numerous times with drug tests.Maybe Pat could have done the same if he had chose the right path, but he didn't and we may never see him again if he gets banned 4 years.

[flahexer]

......

So you say the greater an athlete is, the less frequent he can train? Now that makes tons of sense... Let me explain you something: It's not so much a matter of how you are allowed to train because of the juice, it's what you get out of the train because of it.

[lwild]

So you say the greater an athlete is, the less frequent he can train? Now that makes tons of sense...

In weightlifting and when talking heavy/max effort, yes.


Look up periodization, thanks.

Let me explain you something: It's not so much a matter of how you are allowed to train because of the juice, it's what you get out of the train because of it.

That made no sense.

[flahexer]

In weightlifting and when talking heavy/max effort, yes.


Look up periodization, thanks.

What makes you such an arrogant and ignorant person? I study this stuff, work in that area for years and live it myself since almost a decade. I am probably more experienced, smarter and certainly stronger than you are. So why don't you show a little bit more respect, since I didn't even offend you with any of my postings?

That made no sense.

Ok, I'll be calm and explain it to you again: Smart doping increases the degree of adaptation to every single training, far more than it increases your physiological ability to train more often (this happens too, particularly when using GH, but to a less significant degree). I.e. roids make your muscles grow faster/better, by decreasing cortisol-dependend protein-breakdown and increasing muscle protein synthesis. They don't make your tendons and ligaments or any other passive element heal faster, which would be the only thing that allows for more training.

Again: Everybody can train as frequent and with a similar volume as the Broz-Guys do and when done smart and considerate, this will be a good and efficient way to increase strength and muscle mass. However, this doesn't mean that you (unlike the Broz-Guys) will be able to put another 100Kg on your squat PR within a year or two. Such unreal, extremely fast increases in strength/mass may be an indicator of doping - not the amount of sessions a person trains. That was my point.

[lwild]

What makes you such an arrogant and ignorant person? I study this stuff, work in that area for years and live it myself since almost a decade. I am probably more experienced, smarter and certainly stronger than you are. So why don't you show a little bit more respect, since I didn't even offend you with any of my postings?

Ok, I'll be calm and explain it to you again: Smart doping increases the degree of adaptation to every single training, far more than it increases your physiological ability to train more often (this happens too, particularly when using GH, but to a less significant degree). I.e. roids make your muscles grow faster/better, by decreasing cortisol-dependend protein-breakdown and increasing muscle protein synthesis. They don't make your tendons and ligaments or any other passive element heal faster, which would be the only thing that allows for more training.

Again: Everybody can train as frequent and with a similar volume as the Broz-Guys do and when done smart and considerate, this will be a good and efficient way to increase strength and muscle mass. However, this doesn't mean that you (unlike the Broz-Guys) will be able to put another 100Kg on your squat PR within a year or two. Such unreal, extremely fast increases in strength/mass may be an indicator of doping - not the amount of sessions a person trains. That was my point.

I don't think anything I said was arrogant or ignorant at all (I wanted you to explain your initial claims, but you switched it into asking me what I thought, hence I gave my opinion. You can't turn around and call me arrogant for that). lol OK buddy, you're stronger thus that gives more weight to what you say? I'm not going to be drawn into an argument about this so I'll pretend I didn't read your other assumptions.

I agree with some of what you just said, but IMO it doesn't justify what you claimed before.

Anyway...

[fraverdenstreet]

What makes you such an arrogant and ignorant person? I study this stuff, work in that area for years and live it myself since almost a decade. I am probably more experienced, smarter and certainly stronger than you are. So why don't you show a little bit more respect, since I didn't even offend you with any of my postings?






Ok, I'll be calm and explain it to you again: Smart doping increases the degree of adaptation to every single training, far more than it increases your physiological ability to train more often (this happens too, particularly when using GH, but to a less significant degree). I.e. roids make your muscles grow faster/better, by decreasing cortisol-dependend protein-breakdown and increasing muscle protein synthesis. They don't make your tendons and ligaments or any other passive element heal faster, which would be the only thing that allows for more training.

Again: Everybody can train as frequent and with a similar volume as the Broz-Guys do and when done smart and considerate, this will be a good and efficient way to increase strength and muscle mass. However, this doesn't mean that you (unlike the Broz-Guys) will be able to put another 100Kg on your squat PR within a year or two. Such unreal, extremely fast increases in strength/mass may be an indicator of doping - not the amount of sessions a person trains. That was my point.

warum wohnst du in deutschland jetzt wenn du studierst an amerikanischen universitäten? es tut mir leid, ich habe nicht so viel deutsch gesprochen für ein lange zeit

[jcameron28]

They don't make your tendons and ligaments or any other passive element heal faster, which would be the only thing that allows for more training.

Mostly agree with your other points but there are plenty of substances that do this, especially GH which is probably why Pat was taking it at the time for his injuries instead of more useful strength oriented drugs but we can't discuss that on this forum.

[chigiskov]

warum wohnst du in deutschland jetzt wenn du studierst an amerikanischen universitäten? es tut mir leid, ich habe nicht so viel deutsch gesprochen für ein lange zeit

lol du bist zu random brah

[dtaps24]

We've all been having this Mendes conversation since what, like 2009-2010? From everything I've seen the kid's been getting blasted and ridiculed by the kind people at the USAW for the duration of it. Seems like there's a small group of people cheering him on and waiting to see what he'll pull off, and a much larger group just waiting to jump on him if he trips up. That's what we're seeing right now.

You're right, 176/207 isn't "A" Class, but I remember when Shane Hamman only pulled off 160/190 in a comp (against me, no less) and came back to hit 180/225 six months later. Yeah, Hamman was a 1008lb squatter in the USPF (the non-tested powerlifting federation) and I'm sure he was no squeaky-clean AAS virgin. Difference is, he could put on his nice southern drawl and talk Jeeezus just enough to woo the brass at USAW, they hugged his nuts so hard he had no choice but to improve. Everyone loved ol' Shane, and ol' Shane got everything he (underservedly) needed to improve.

So yeah, I'll call it as I see it. Mendes could have been medal material in this Olympic cycle if he was given the helping hand he deserved when he actually needed it instead of dealing with an uphill battle.

As for Broz, again the guy's been sharing his training philosophy since the late 90's on the Goheavy board. Krastev was laughed out of the USA by the same people who have been ridiculing Broz all these years. I think he's a damn good guy, and every bit the coach Abajiev is. What he's accomplished with a tiny storefront and some shoddy equipment is miraculous. Again, he's just in an environment that will never give a dissenting opinion a fair forum to express itself, much less any political or financial support.

As Malcolm Gladwell pointed out in "Outliers", it's amazing how little a person's actual talent determines how successful they are. It's all connections and opportunities.

Wait, is Mendes an outlier with amazing talent who could be a medal contender or just a random kid in Vegas who Broz's amazing coaching took (almost) to the top? You can't have it both ways. That said, I like Mendes, I don't disagree that Broz has done some good things, but the unavoidable fact of the matter is his top 2 remaining lifters just got popped after a 3rd quite at a time that would indicate he was concerned about being popped. He created a buzz but that doesn't mean we ignore all other coaches, lifters, and methods just because he struck a nerve with people nor should we stick our head in the sand and pretend that part of his regimen didn't include PED use. That ignores pretty much all of the data out there. I don't think he should be damned for it, nor do I think he should be put on a pedestal because he made cool videos out of a small gym.

[flahexer]

I don't think anything I said was arrogant or ignorant at all (I wanted you to explain your initial claims, but you switched it into asking me what I thought, hence I gave my opinion. You can't turn around and call me arrogant for that). lol OK buddy, you're stronger thus that gives more weight to what you say? I'm not going to be drawn into an argument about this so I'll pretend I didn't read your other assumptions.

I agree with some of what you just said, but IMO it doesn't justify what you claimed before.

Anyway...

Your "Look up Periodization, thanks." sounded pretty arrogant to me. But no worries if you didn't mean it like that. My initial point was just, that's it's a matter of how you build up to the point where you train this frequent and particularly a matter of what you're used to. When a Pat Mendes goes max on squats with 350Kg, this isn't more likely to cause injury than a beginner who goes max with his 100Kg 1RPM. You see where I'm going with that? In fact, it's probably far less likely for such experienced athletes to get injured (despite that the absolute load is heavier), because they have better technique, know how to handle a rep they fail and use weights they know they have a chance to move. Overdoing it load- and frequency-wise can cause injury to any athlete, no matter the level. How come Mendes can move a weight without tearing anything, when I would get completely crushed? Because he has bigger muscles, stiffer tendons and denser bones and this came over time, through adaptation. Now, especially in such young athletes who haven't given their body the proper time to entirely adapt to this kind of training, particularly when using PEDs like roids, the adaptation in certain areas (like the strength/size of the muscle) can surpass some other adaptations by far: The muscle grows faster and gets stronger than the tendons could ever handle. To avoid those kind of injuries you need other PEDs, such as GH, which trigger other adaptations like collagen synthesis to support tendon-growth.

Mendes has injury issues because he became strong in an "unnatural" short amount of time, not because he is as strong as he is and trains frequent.

warum wohnst du in deutschland jetzt wenn du studierst an amerikanischen universitäten? es tut mir leid, ich habe nicht so viel deutsch gesprochen für ein lange zeit

Ich komme ursprünglich aus Berlin, habe aber die letzten 7 Monate in Davis an der UC studiert. Hast du eine Zeit lang in Deutschland gelebt oder einfach Deutsch als Fach in der Highschool gehabt?

Mostly agree with your other points but there are plenty of substances that do this, especially GH which is probably why Pat was taking it at the time for his injuries instead of more useful strength oriented drugs but we can't discuss that on this forum.

`

Absolutely agree with that.

[chigiskov]

Mendes has injury issues because he became strong in an "unnatural" short amount of time, not because he is as strong as he is and trains frequent.

To be fair, that's a bit of an arrogant claim too. There's no way of knowing if its a combination of things.

[PretentiousKunt]

To be fair, that's a bit of an arrogant claim too. There's no way of knowing if its a combination of things.

From what I remember of the broz interview thread I think mendes and one of his other students gained around 8kg/month on their squats. Not saying this is high or low, just from what I remember.

[HamburgerTrain]

All this argueing. Just keep in mind, even though its a different strength sport, Ed Coan failed some drug tests as well. No one really seems to care about it now. I am sure this will all blow over.

[JiP]

All this argueing. Just keep in mind, even though its a different strength sport, Ed Coan failed some drug tests as well. No one really seems to care about it now. I am sure this will all blow over.

Yeah, pretty much everyone I admire is on gear as far as I know. so i DGAF

[fraverdenstreet]

Ich komme ursprünglich aus Berlin, habe aber die letzten 7 Monate in Davis an der UC studiert. Hast du eine Zeit lang in Deutschland gelebt oder einfach Deutsch als Fach in der Highschool gehabt?

ich habe deutsch in der highschool gelernt für drei jahren aber jetzt ich studiere norwegisch alleine :P ich war auf der flughafen in leipzig dreimal ... das war die langste zeit die ich in deutschland war hahahaha. das ist sehr cool. deutschen sind wunderbar.

[chigiskov]

ich habe deutsch in der highschool gelernt für drei jahren aber jetzt ich studiere norwegisch alleine :P ich war auf der flughafen in leipzig dreimal ... das war die langste zeit die ich in deutschland war hahahaha. das ist sehr cool. deutschen sind wunderbar.

aww wut dude, i thought you were norwegian. ich komme aus Dänemark

[fraverdenstreet]

aww wut dude, i thought you were norwegian. ich komme aus Dänemark

LOL nei men jeg ønsker å være norsk i didn't know you are from denmark, that makes you 3x cooler to me

[lwild]

warum wohnst du in deutschland jetzt wenn du studierst an amerikanischen universitäten? es tut mir leid, ich habe nicht so viel deutsch gesprochen für ein lange zeit

lol du bist zu random brah

ich habe deutsch in der highschool gelernt für drei jahren aber jetzt ich studiere norwegisch alleine :P ich war auf der flughafen in leipzig dreimal ... das war die langste zeit die ich in deutschland war hahahaha. das ist sehr cool. deutschen sind wunderbar.

aww wut dude, i thought you were norwegian. ich komme aus Dänemark

LOL nei men jeg ønsker å være norsk i didn't know you are from denmark, that makes you 3x cooler to me

[flahexer]

...

Haha, I would've repped you for this one if I could.

Chigiskov: Yeah, true. It's most certainly not only one single issue... At the end of day, I'd still say Mendes did absolutely everything right regarding his lifting career - except getting caught. He and the other Broz-Athletes are still hella inspiring to me though. Gear or not, what they accomplish is almost unreal.

[feces99]

Haha, I would've repped you for this one if I could.

Chigiskov: Yeah, true. It's most certainly not only one single issue... At the end of day, I'd still say Mendes did absolutely everything right regarding his lifting career - except getting caught. He and the other Broz-Athletes are still hella inspiring to me though. Gear or not, what they accomplish is almost unreal.

I think he should have been in more meets. His best lifts were done in a gym and not on the platform. But I guess we all know now why he didn't.

[fraverdenstreet]

LOl that amused me