Straightbashing? -Gays moving to violence

[mntbikedude]

so, what exactly did the mormon church do that you want thousands to march on them?

You disagree with their stance on same-sex marriage?

And I thought that we are living in a democratic country where people are entitled to their opinions.

Question 1 they fronted most of the money to defeat prop 8. My real objection is that my church has exsperienced first hand the hate of others over their own interpretation of marriage. You would think they could be more understanding to others needs.

I do disagree with them on same-sex marriage. I believe teaching people to be themselves and make moral decisions is the only solution to this age old problem. By moral decision I mean that they are in a commited legal relationship before they have sex.

This is a democracy, and being a democracy does not ever give one group of people the right to take away anothers rights. The south voted to stay segregated, that didn't make it right. I guess the Blacks were supposed to just say oh well, I guess we just have to keep riding in the back of the bus.

My church choose to get involved in taking away anothers rights, they choose to become lobbyist and as such they will reap the chaos that will follow. This will not end until everyone has equal rights. Thank God for brave people.

I was too young to be in the equal rights movement, I was too young to protest the Vietnam War. But I will not stand by this time and let the right wing exstremist get away with stomping on someone elses rights and dreams.

Every human being has the right to fall in love and be in a legal accepted relationship with another. How much better world this would be. If every person had another in their life, someone to come home to, to be physical with and to support in good times and bad. I'm proud to be on the side of freedom.

We will look back on this day, and many will look back and realize they were wrong.

[AKR]

Question 1 they fronted most of the money to defeat prop 8. My real objection is that my church has exsperienced first hand the hate of others over their own interpretation of marriage. You would think they could be more understanding to others needs.

I do disagree with them on same-sex marriage. I believe teaching people to be themselves and make moral decisions is the only solution to this age old problem. By moral decision I mean that they are in a commited legal relationship before they have sex.

This is a democracy, and being a democracy does not ever give one group of people the right to take away anothers rights. The south voted to stay segregated, that didn't make it right. I guess the Blacks were supposed to just say oh well, I guess we just have to keep riding in the back of the bus.

My church choose to get involved in taking away anothers rights, they choose to become lobbyist and as such they will reap the chaos that will follow. This will not end until everyone has equal rights. Thank God for brave people.

I was too young to be in the equal rights movement, I was too young to protest the Vietnam War. But I will not stand by this time and let the right wing exstremist get away with stomping on someone elses rights and dreams.

Every human being has the right to fall in love and be in a legal accepted relationship with another. How much better world this would be. If every person had another in their life, someone to come home to, to be physical with and to support in good times and bad. I'm proud to be on the side of freedom.

We will look back on this day, and many will look back and realize they were wrong.

I have a lot of respect for you. You're in the middle of "Mormon country" and are definitely going against the flow. I know you already feel a bit of tension between yourself and other members of your church. Have you voiced your opinion to others in the church on this issue? On the news, I think they were talking about some website for Mormons who were against Prop 8. I'm not sure if it was for ex-Mormons, or just Mormons in general.

[AKR]

Wow, strong alpha male. What a turn on... I'll be right over!

Uh oh, gata35, you've done it now. Minotaur is like Chinese handcuffs: the more you resist, the more it turns him on.

[mntbikedude]

I have a lot of respect for you. You're in the middle of "Mormon country" and are definitely going against the flow. I know you already feel a bit of tension between yourself and other members of your church. Have you voiced your opinion to others in the church on this issue? On the news, I think they were talking about some website for Mormons who were against Prop 8. I'm not sure if it was for ex-Mormons, or just Mormons in general.

Thanks AKR the respect is mutual. Well I haven't actually marched in a protest yet but I will. Most of my friends know where I stand. My wife and I have discussed it in great detail and we have decided that we don't have to convince each other. That we can still love each other and be in complete opposition to what we believe regarding this issue.

My wife supports my decision to take a stand. Which is really brave on her part. In turn I try and be sensitive of when I speak out. There isn't a lot of room in the mormon church to speak out against decisions of the leaders. You can have your own oppinion but once you go public, you put your membership on the line.

I understand that, and I believe I am on the right side of the line. There is a much longer answer that led up to this.

[Minotaur]

Uh oh, gata35, you've done it now. Minotaur is like Chinese handcuffs: the more you resist, the more it turns him on.

Am I that transparent?

[designer12]

Thanks AKR the respect is mutual. Well I haven't actually marched in a protest yet but I will. Most of my friends know where I stand. My wife and I have discussed it in great detail and we have decided that we don't have to convince each other. That we can still love each other and be in complete opposition to what we believe regarding this issue.

My wife supports my decision to take a stand. Which is really brave on her part. In turn I try and be sensitive of when I speak out. There isn't a lot of room in the mormon church to speak out against decisions of the leaders. You can have your own oppinion but once you go public, you put your membership on the line.

I understand that, and I believe I am on the right side of the line. There is a much longer answer that led up to this.

Are you going to get excommunicated? (serious)

[mntbikedude]

Are you going to get excommunicated? (serious)

I believe it could come to that. If that is the direction things go then I would ask to have my name removed from the church before.

[Barbarian440]

Taking this statement into the context of same-sex marriage supporters is worst kind of blasphemy.

Never in history did erosion of moral standards and values have positive consequences for any society or country.

That's the worst kind of blasphemy? Really? That is as far as it goes?

Worse has been done to pervert the name of God.

And why do you even debate with these blasphemathic sodomites? Wouldn't you agree that they have no place on this board much less this nation, founded on a weighty Judeo-Christian heritage?

The amount of damage the do to our society is staggering. Did you know their primary goal is to harm traditional marriage and outright ban heterosexuality? As you claimed earlier, if most were homosexual, as they intend, we would become extinct!

[ONEWORDMAN]

it shows the time we are living in and every perversion is ok incest beastality **** and the like iy shows when the day of destruction occurs moral degradation will be at its peak. but i dont discriminate this a:so includes fornicators and adultry as sins that people who practice but dont repent will be annihalated.But really all should marry and should be left alone........the creator will deal with mankind in his divinely appointed time

[mntbikedude]

it shows the time we are living in and every perversion is ok incest beastality **** and the like iy shows when the day of destruction occurs moral degradation will be at its peak. but i dont discriminate this a:so includes fornicators and adultry as sins that people who practice but dont repent will be annihalated.But really all should marry and should be left alone........the creator will deal with mankind in his divinely appointed time

It always comes to this religious bull****. There is a big difference between two adults of the same sex that love each other, are attracted to each other and want to commit their lifes to each other.

There is a big difference between that and a guy f****** his dog.

[designer12]

It always comes to this religious bull****. There is a big difference between two adults of the same sex that love each other, are attracted to each other and want to commit their lifes to each other.

There is a big difference between that and a guy f****** his dog.

Lulz, I used to think that. I must have been tripping pretty bad.

[Minotaur]

it shows the time we are living in and every perversion is ok incest beastality **** and the like iy shows when the day of destruction occurs moral degradation will be at its peak. but i dont discriminate this a:so includes fornicators and adultry as sins that people who practice but dont repent will be annihalated.But really all should marry and should be left alone........the creator will deal with mankind in his divinely appointed time

Slippery slopes, red herrings, boogeymen, and piss-poor arguments that have no credibility.

[KRANE]

It always comes to this religious bull****. There is a big difference between two adults of the same sex that love each other, are attracted to each other and want to commit their lifes to each other.

There is a big difference between that and a guy f****** his dog.

Religion is a guide to live by that may ascribe to. It is hardly BS.

Rather than substanciate your point, your lack of reverence just goes to prove how lightly you view standards of living that have been passed down for centuries. You hold nothing sacred, and hold in contempt those that do.

In these times, and despite divine grace, religion still seems to fail more then it succeeds. I think he just means without a higher reference for instruction and guidance, what to prevent some other group from making a similar claims for similar reason?

[SDMuscleBuddy]

Wow, strong alpha male. What a turn on... I'll be right over!

"12 Guage"? Is that part of the new Gay Code Handbook? I haven't gotten the 2009 Edition yet.

[Minotaur]

"12 Guage"? Is that part of the new Gay Code Handbook? I haven't gotten the 2009 Edition yet.

Mm... I dunno, but if it's big, I want it.

[SDMuscleBuddy]

Religion is a guide to live by that may ascribe to. It is hardly BS.

Rather than substanciate your point, your lack of reverence just goes to prove how lightly you view standards of living that have been passed down for centuries. You hold nothing sacred, and hold in contempt those that do.

In these times, and despite divine grace, religion still seems to fail more then it succeeds. I think he just means without a higher reference for instruction and guidance, what to prevent some other group from making a similar claims for similar reason?

It is BS when that bull**** leads to legislation. I have total respect for other's beliefs, but not when they refuse to respect mine. When it comes to human rights, you have no choice but to tolerate that which you cannot accept. So many so-called democrats (small "d") fail to grasp this as necessary in a free society.

[KRANE]

It is BS when that bull**** leads to legislation. I have total respect for other's beliefs, but not when they refuse to respect mine.

Beliefs come from a higher power, while opinions and feeling change from day to day.

When it comes to human rights, you have no choice but to tolerate that which you cannot accept. So many so-called democrats (small "d") fail to grasp this as necessary in a free society.

In fact, we're not taking about human rights, since no one can legislate love or who you're attracted to.

[SDMuscleBuddy]

Beliefs come from a higher power, while opinions and feeling change from day to day.

In fact, we're not taking about human rights, since no one can legislate love or who you're attracted to.

If you're right about beliefs, then what makes one higher power better than another?

You are definitely right about what we can legislate. Now explain it to those who keep trying.

[HottaChicka]

That's the worst kind of blasphemy? Really? That is as far as it goes?

Worse has been done to pervert the name of God.

And why do you even debate with these blasphemathic sodomites? Wouldn't you agree that they have no place on this board much less this nation, founded on a weighty Judeo-Christian heritage?

The amount of damage the do to our society is staggering. Did you know their primary goal is to harm traditional marriage and outright ban heterosexuality? As you claimed earlier, if most were homosexual, as they intend, we would become extinct!

Well, I don't hate them. In school, at college and other places I have met all kind of people, including homosexuals, and I do respect them as much as any other human being. It is their stances and positions that I find very disadvantageous, from a moral as well as from a biological perspective. So, I am not fighting against people but against their positions. That's an important difference.

The reason why I am arguing here is that there are obviously a lot of heterosexual people who actually tend to believe many myths same-sex marriage activists have been spreading for decades.

Among those myths are the following:

1. Homosexuality is 100% determined by genetics (or genetics + environment)
2. Sexual orientation is set in stone and cannot change
3. Homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have no chance to influence their sexual orientation
4. Homosexuality is something entirely "normal" and even beneficial for a population.
5. Prohibition of same-sex marriage is as much discriminating as discrimination against blacks back in the day

etc.



However, not one of these claims is unchallenged. This is what homosexual activists rigorously keep quiet about - about a multitude of counter-arguments and even scientific research that does not support these claims.
That's what people who get their entire information exclusively from gay-activists will tend to believe without any reflexion and proper reasoning. I think that these people deserve to get some information from the other camp as well, so that they can make an informed decision.

[Minotaur]

1. Homosexuality is 100% determined by genetics (or genetics + environment)

I don't recall that anyone in any setting ever said that. I certainly don't think it's 100% genetics; we give credence to hormonal influences on all fetuses.

2. Sexual orientation is set in stone and cannot change

Wrong again, Skipper. Many people slide back and forth on the sexual orientation continuum. I think it was Kinsey's report which stated that about 10% of the population identified as exclusively homosexual, and about the same number as exclusively heterosexual. The rest identified as being somewhere within the other 80%

3. Homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have no chance to influence their sexual orientation

Not unless their orientation is within that 80% of the spectrum.

4. Homosexuality is something entirely "normal" and even beneficial for a population.

Prove it's not.

5. Prohibition of same-sex marriage is as much discriminating as discrimination against blacks back in the day

Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination, whether against blacks, gays, Muslims, South Asians, East Asians, Native Americans, women, the elderly. Discrimination is reprehensible.

Your strawman arguments fail, Skipper, as usual. Whom are you quoting these days... Paul Cameron... NARTH... The AFC... ?

[HottaChicka]

I don't recall that anyone in any setting ever said that.

It's being stated all over the place and many people actually believe this. Even yourself have advocated this.

I certainly don't think it's 100% genetics; we give credence to hormonal influences on all fetuses.

You would look much better if you'd actually read the posts you refer to and cite them correctly.

Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination, whether against blacks, gays, Muslims, South Asians, East Asians, Native Americans, women, the elderly. Discrimination is reprehensible.

No person with a halfway sane mind would consider laws against consanginual marriage, zoophilic marriage, polygamy, children marriage etc. as discrimination. So, how can prohibition of same-sex marriage be considered as discrimination?

Everybody, regardless of gender, race, skin color etc. is allowed to marry an opposite-sex individual and not allowed to marry a same-sex person. Since this rule applies to everybody it is not per se discriminating.


Now, your alike say: "Ey, but we want to marry the person of our choice - regardless of the gender".

Fine, you are entitled to voice your wishes. But stop calling discrimination where discrimination does not exist. You want an extension of laws to cover your special wish to marry a same-sex individual.

Your claim on discrimination is as valid as the claim of a cannibal feeling discriminated because he is not allowed to eat a person of his choice.

[Minotaur]

It's being stated all over the place and many people actually believe this. Even yourself have advocated this.

All over the place... generalization. Specific posts, please?

You would look much better if you'd actually read the posts you refer to and cite them correctly.

Which posts?

No person with a halfway sane mind would consider laws against consanginual marriage, zoophilic marriage, polygamy, children marriage etc. as discrimination. So, how can prohibition of same-sex marriage be considered as discrimination?

Slippery slopes, red herrings and boogeymen. Will you never let go of them?

Everybody, regardless of gender, race, skin color etc. is allowed to marry an opposite-sex individual and not allowed to marry a same-sex person. Since this rule applies to everybody it is not per se discriminating.

More nonsense. Of course everyone has the right to marry the opposite sex, but why should I marry someone I am not attracted to simply to exercise my "right" to this? That's called a mockery of the very thing you want to "protect".

Do you want to marry a person of the same sex whom you are attracted to? Do you want to marry a person of the opposite sex whom you are attracted to? Whether you can or not is not the question. Do you want to?

1. You don't want to marry a person of the same sex because you are not gay. You can marry the person of your choosing.

2. You want to marry a person of the same sex and can't, then you are gay.

3. I want to marry a person of the same sex I am attracted to and can't. I am gay.

4. I don't want to marry a person of the opposite sex because I am gay.

You can marry the person of your free choosing, I cannot for absolutely no good reason. Give me one, even one, and not comparing to ****philia, zoophilia, polygamy, because those advocates can fight their own battle. Their fight is not my fight, so you'd fail in that argument. Now, give me even one good reason why gays cannot get married?

Now, your alike say: "Ey, but we want to marry the person of our choice - regardless of the gender".

Fine, you are entitled to voice your wishes. But stop calling discrimination where discrimination does not exist. You want an extension of laws to cover your special wish to marry a same-sex individual.

There is discrimination because there is no valid, legal or other reason to prohibit same sex marriages.

Your claim on discrimination is as valid as the claim of a cannibal feeling discriminated because he is not allowed to eat a person of his choice.

Wow, and I thought you were grasping before!

You have no argument, Skipper. Let it go and stop making yourself look even more stupid than you already have. You've been beaten down by almost everyone, with sound arguments. Cut your losses, sweetheart.

[squanto]

So let me get this straight.

- Gays can't get married because it's the beginning of a slippery slope of immorality.

- None of you people can identify anything that makes this argument valid here, but previously invalid considering interracial marriages. Apparently, you don't see a problem with this gaping inconsistency and are content with "just cuz".

- The definition of morality, is apparently a book, thousands of years old, that claims homosexuality justifies execution, some bush that was on fire talked to people, and someone lived in a giant fish for three days.

- You probably take offense to my mentioning those verses, and choose to take them as metaphors but, the stuff that isn't even mentioned like marriage and abortion, that's divine edict.

- And you take all of this stuff seriously?

WTF

[Minotaur]

Yeah, pretty much.

[HottaChicka]

Which posts?

O.K. here it is again for you:
my post:

"1. Homosexuality is 100% determined by genetics (or genetics + environment)"

your reply:

"I don't recall that anyone in any setting ever said that. I certainly don't think it's 100% genetics; we give credence to hormonal influences on all fetuses"

O.K., now read again the statement you just commented on. I will help you by underlining the relevant part:

""1. Homosexuality is 100% determined by genetics (or genetics + environment)"

Got it now?

Do you want to marry a person of the same sex whom you are attracted to? Do you want to marry a person of the opposite sex whom you are attracted to? Whether you can or not is not the question. Do you want to?

The law is not interested in what you want or what I want. Jurisdiction is not a muscial "request-programme" but just a regulatory frame of what is allowed and what is not allowed. And since it applies to everybody, it does not represent a discrimination.

If you want to discuss what " extra wishes" you want to have incorporated into the laws, then this would be another discussion.

4. I don't want to marry a person of the opposite sex because I am gay.

Nobody forces you to marry a person of opposite sex if you don't want to. In the same way, nobody forces me to marry a living individual if I am attracted only to cold meat. Again - no discrimination here. Only because I feel the desire to kill someone, but laws don't allow that, doesn't mean I am discriminated - because the same law applies to all people equally.

Now, if you have the special wish to extend the rights to marriage of same sex - that would be an entirely different discussion.

You can marry the person of your free choosing, I cannot for absolutely no good reason.

I cannot marry the person of my free choosing because I am limited to human adult persons of different gender. Before the law, you and me are limited in the exactely same way regarding our options to marry.

Give me one, even one, and not comparing to ****philia, zoophilia, polygamy, because those advocates can fight their own battle. Their fight is not my fight, so you'd fail in that argument. Now, give me even one good reason why gays cannot get married?

It is not about the battle for zoophilia, ****philia, incest and others. It's about the point that "marriage" is something very special and absolutely unique. It is reserved for the relationship between an adult human male and a human female. This is what marriage is about. This has biological / physiological, psychological and social reasons, and is deeply anchored in fundamental moral conceptions that christians do share with jews, muslims and other religions.
Any other form of sexual relationship is a deviation and violation of this concept of marriage.

There is discrimination because there is no valid, legal or other reason to prohibit same sex marriages.

Come on, you are too smart to use this statement as a definition of "discrimination".

[Minotaur]

The law is not interested in what you want or what I want. Jurisdiction is not a muscial "request-programme" but just a regulatory frame of what is allowed and what is not allowed. And since it applies to everybody, it does not represent a discrimination.

Wrong, Skipper. The law must be applied equitably and fairly to all persons when there is no valid reason to make something illegal.

It is not about the battle for zoophilia, ****philia, incest and others. It's about the point that "marriage" is something very special and absolutely unique. It is reserved for the relationship between an adult human male and a human female. This is what marriage is about. This has biological / physiological, psychological and social reasons, and is deeply anchored in fundamental moral conceptions that christians do share with jews, muslims and other religions.
Any other form of sexual relationship is a deviation and violation of this concept of marriage.

Unbelievably obtuse and parochial. Why should the morality of a desert people 3,500 years ago be applied to a secular nation in the 21st century?

How do you know for a fact what the purpose of marriage is? Procreation? Here we go again with the 60 year olds getting married.

Give it up, your arguments are lame and repetitive. They have no basis whatsoever. If you want to keep raving, go ahead. I just can't argue anymore with your lame comments and illogic.

In before Skipper and moy droog pipe up with "See, you have no argument so you give up".

No, I'd just rather stick pins in my eyes.

Note to self:

Never argue with idiots; they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[HottaChicka]

Unbelievably obtuse and parochial. Why should the morality of a desert people 3,500 years ago be applied to a secular nation in the 21st century?

Morality of desert people? How about the moral conceptions revealed by the God (of Christians, Jews and Muslims) of more than 3 billion people worldwide?
How about the moral conceptions made by God thousands of years before Jews even existed?

How do you know for a fact what the purpose of marriage is? Procreation? Here we go again with the 60 year olds getting married.

Thank you again for commenting on something that I didn't say. (Let's speak about logical fallacies)

But to pick up this issue, since you dropped it:
Procreation is only one aspect of marriage. There are others as well. From a biological and physiological perspective, it is clear that the unique male and female reproductional system are built to be complementary to each other and not to themselves, to children, to animals or to corpses. So, from a pure biological perspective, a penis is made to penetrate a vagina, and not an anus, a tree or a vacuum cleaner. Putting your penis into non-physioloigical holes will increase the risk for harm (infections, tissue ruptures, bleedings, etc.).

From an evolutionary perspective, homosexuality is an anomaly that would destroy any population if it wouldn't occur in statistically irrelevant amounts.

From a religious perspective, marriage between man and women represents the relationship between God and his church. Any form of deviation of the original male-female marriage would represent a violation of this symbol for our relationship to God.
Moreover, God created man and women complementary to each other. If God wanted man to be homosexual he would have created two Adams and not Adam and Eve. he instructed them to have sex with each other and not with something else. Only the combination of male and female = " complete man" (not in a sexual meaning).

Psychologically, children need male and female role models. Taking this away from children might seriously affect their later sexual orientation and lead to relationship problems. Increased rates of drug use / addiction have been described in such children.


O.K., these have been plenty of reasons against same sex marriage. And I have only scraped the surface. There are many more reasons.

Never argue with idiots; they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

It is a mystery to me why you can't close any post without your obligatroy attempt to be personally insulting? Is this a common trait among homosexuals to be intolerant? Or are you an exception?

[squanto]

Is this the Daily Show?

[Minotaur]

Morality of desert people? How about the moral conceptions revealed by the God (of Christians, Jews and Muslims) of more than 3 billion people worldwide?
How about the moral conceptions made by God thousands of years before Jews even existed?

Moreover, God created man and women complementary to each other. If God wanted man to be homosexual he would have created two Adams and not Adam and Eve. he instructed them to have sex with each other and not with something else. Only the combination of male and female = " complete man" (not in a sexual meaning).

Ah! Now it comes to it! We have the answer. You are a bible-thumper! Most likely with homosexual tendencies. Yes, I see it now.

It is a mystery to me why you can't close any post without your obligatroy attempt to be personally insulting? Is this a common trait among homosexuals to be intolerant? Or are you an exception?

I don't know... I'm weak.

[Minotaur]

Is this the Daily Show?

Better.