Jimmy Moore Nutritional Ketosis Lecture

[mattvdh]

He's a bit of a dork but gave some really great tips, for example:

-Ketostix are an inaccurate way to measure ketones, it only measures acetoacetate. Beta-hydroxybutyrate is the type of ketone found in your blood which is used for fuel. So he says the 'strips are pretty much useless'

He recommends these products for more accurate testing:

Precision Xtra Blood Glucose & Ketone Monitoring System
http://www.abbottdiabetescare.ca/adc...ofile_0016.htm

and
http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/accu-che...meter/10031197

So yeah just thought I'd share a tidbit, I won't give away anymore and spoil it for you. Here's his site: http://www.livinlavidalowcarb.com/

[Meni]

He's a bit of a dork but gave some really great tips, for example:

-Ketostix are an inaccurate way to measure ketones, it only measures acetoacetate. Beta-hydroxybutyrate is the type of ketone found in your blood which is used for fuel. So he says the 'strips are pretty much useless'

He recommends these products for more accurate testing:

Precision Xtra Blood Glucose & Ketone Monitoring System
http://www.abbottdiabetescare.ca/adc...ofile_0016.htm

and
http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/accu-che...meter/10031197

So yeah just thought I'd share a tidbit, I won't give away anymore and spoil it for you. Here's his site: http://www.livinlavidalowcarb.com/

why is Jimmy fat?
and the blood testing strips are expensive $1.31 each.
i'm stick to the test strips, and eat less than 20 g a day of carbs, i'm in ketosis.

[mattvdh]

well if you watch the video he says that he lost 180 lbs in something like 6 months. And he looks pretty skinny in his newer pictures. Ya it's just because he was super obese before hand like 450 lbs.

Yeah true, but if you're trying to track stats it's much more accurate to check the blood than urine.

Yeah I have to keep it super low as well. I ate some greens and a protein shake and it read negative. Too much protein will do it as well.

[cathiow47]

well if you watch the video he says that he lost 180 lbs. And he looks pretty skinny in his newer pictures. Ya it's just because he was super obese before hand like 450 lbs.

Yeah true, but if you're trying to track stats it's much more accurate to check the blood than urine.

Yeah I have to keep it super low as well. I ate some greens and a protein shake and it read negative. Too much protein will do it as well.

Some people are very efficient at turning protein into glucose. All those breakdown products from converting it into glucose are really bad for the kidneys.

[Meni]

well if you watch the video he says that he lost 180 lbs. And he looks pretty skinny in his newer pictures. Ya it's just because he was super obese before hand like 450 lbs.

Yeah true, but if you're trying to track stats it's much more accurate to check the blood than urine.

Yeah I have to keep it super low as well. I ate some greens and a protein shake and it read negative. Too much protein will do it as well.

Yes, your body body can turn protein into glucose

[WonderPug]

Some people are very efficient at turning protein into glucose. All those breakdown products from converting it into glucose are really bad for the kidneys.

The bolded is, of course, not true.

Yeah I have to keep it super low as well. I ate some greens and a protein shake and it read negative. Too much protein will do it as well.

FYI: Protein shakes, particularly the ones composed from whey, are highly insulinotropic, in fact more so than many sources of carbohydrates.

[mattvdh]

FYI: Protein shakes, particularly the ones composed from whey, are highly insulinotropic, in fact more so than many sources of carbohydrates.

Yeah I always had a suspicion of it. And my sixstar cheapo walmart brand has 9 grams of carbs per serving. so are you on the keto diet out of curiosity?

[WonderPug]

are you on the keto diet out of curiosity?

My diet is typically high in fat, high in protein and very low in carbs, but I'm trying a n=1 experiment now where protein is decreased and dietary fat is further increased.

That said, my typical diet results in nutritional ketosis given my high level of energy expenditure (TDEE of ~3,600 to ~4,100 calories, depending on season).

[mattvdh]

My diet is typically high in fat, high in protein and very low in carbs, but I'm trying a n=1 experiment now where protein is decreased and dietary fat is further increased.

That said, my typical diet results in nutritional ketosis given my high level of energy expenditure (TDEE of ~3,600 to ~4,100 calories, depending on season).

What's the point of consuming high amounts of protein if the excess just converts to glucose? You'd might as well reap the benefits of nutritional ketosis.

[WonderPug]

What's the point of consuming high amounts of protein if the excess just converts to glucose? You'd might as well reap the benefits of nutritional ketosis.

I'm in nutritional ketosis with high protein intake (and even if direct CHO intake is slightly above 100 gram/d) in large part because of my activity level.

That said, the advantage of higher protein intake can include satiety, palatability and recovery time, for example.

And, by the way, it's not that higher protein intake converts to glucose, but, rather, that any shortfall in exogenous intake of CHO will be met by endogenous and/or exogenous protein.

In other words, the issue regarding ketosis is not gluconeogenesis but, rather, the insulinotropic nature of protein.

[Atavis]

What's the point of consuming high amounts of protein if the excess just converts to glucose? You'd might as well reap the benefits of nutritional ketosis.

As WonderPug already mentioned, any shortfall in dietary CHO intake resulting in increased gluconeogenesis means you may have a conditional need for increased dietary protein intake unless you want to sacrifice lbm to the process. The greater your caloric deficit and/or low your CHO intake the more this becomes an issue.

Also, there is the fact that an excessive amount of protein for one person will be different than an excessive amount for another. It's a bit of a nebulous term. 250 gr of protein in a day means something very different to a 220 lb male athlete than it does to a 110 lb female stay at home mom. Stick that 220 lb man on a PSMF and his protein needs will be even higher.

[mattvdh]

I'm in nutritional ketosis with high protein intake (and even if direct CHO intake is slightly above 100 gram/d) in large part because of my activity level.

That said, the advantage of higher protein intake can include satiety, palatability and recovery time, for example.

And, by the way, it's not that higher protein intake converts to glucose, but, rather, that any shortfall in exogenous intake of CHO will be met by endogenous and/or exogenous protein.

In other words, the issue regarding ketosis is not gluconeogenesis but, rather, the insulinotropic nature of protein.

I'm surprised you're able to achieve a ketogenic state with 100 grams of of carbs. I have to keep it under 30 grams or so or I read negative, that's why I'm not convinced that those ketostix are all that accurate.

Isn't the end result of spiking glucose or insulin basically the same hormonal/bodily reaction?

You say that Whey is insulinotropic but you consume other forms of protein. Are there variances in the types of insulin response in different types of proteins?
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/494021

"over consumption of dairy products--Dairy products, especially milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, and butter, are potent insulinotropic foods, i.e., foods that trigger insulin release."
http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/i.../t-409533.html --not a super credible source mind you, but a few other users were saying that dairy products will spike insulin.


The more I read up on this diet the more restrictive it becomes... OK, so no more dairy products. I can count the types of keto foods on two hands now. Coconuts oils, MCT oil (not really a food), eggs, fatty meats, flax seed, avocado, peanut butter in moderation. This is getting ridiculous.

[WonderPug]

^^^ Matt, you're getting very confused again.

CHO intake as well as protein intake and it's effect of ketosis depend heavily on energy expenditure and glycogen state.

The insulinotropic nature of protein is variable, based on part of the amino acid profile of the protein source and in part of the total meal composition.

Ingrediants like butter are not insulitphic.

And I could go on and on, but I have done so in the past in threads you've started, but the more detailed my replies, the more confused you seem to get. So, I'll just stop here by saying I think you're well meaning, but extremely unaware of the basics about nutrition and physiology.

[mattvdh]

I'm going to do some more reading on insulin. It's a very interesting topic.

I've noticed that my acne/backne is clearing up since I've embarked on this ketogenic diet. I wonder if insulin was the culprit. Anyone else noticed that their skin clears up when in ketosis?

[Meni]

I'm going to do some more reading on insulin. It's a very interesting topic.

I've noticed that my acne/backne is clearing up since I've embarked on this ketogenic diet. I wonder if insulin was the culprit. Anyone else noticed that their skin clears up when in ketosis?

could be the carbs missing, gluten, wheat, stuff like that.

[Meni]

and about the limited food on Keto Matt mentioned: I eat green veggies, olive oil, vinegar, feta cheese, bacon, grass fed beef, salmon, eggs from chicken who eat bugs lol, 90% dark chocolate, mct oil, coconut oil, coffee, little stevia, protein powder, brazil nuts

I'll weigh the limited selection with health benefits vs the standard American diet with health problems.

[mattvdh]

and about the limited food on Keto Matt mentioned: I eat green veggies, olive oil, vinegar, feta cheese, bacon, grass fed beef, salmon, eggs from chicken who eat bugs lol, 90% dark chocolate, mct oil, coconut oil, coffee, little stevia, protein powder, brazil nuts

I'll weigh the limited selection with health benefits vs the standard American diet with health problems.

The thing that I find confusing is that some of the things you've mentioned have a fair amount of carbs and quite a bit of protein, or even some sugar from the dark chocolate.So basically I should concern myself with the GL,the the quality of fats (Omega 3's not 6's, and a good ratio of all 3 types) and proteins (not insulotropic), combined with keeping CHO low.

So beans/lentils/soy are a bit of a curve ball because they have a low GL, good fats and proteins but high carbs. The same goes for chicken breasts except they're high in protein.

[mattvdh]

could be the carbs missing, gluten, wheat, stuff like that.

Quite possibly, although I was never big on wheat or gluten so I'm not sure about that one. I'm thinking it was the severe reduction of carbs and increased fats. When I cycle in a carb day in the next few weeks I'll take some notes. I can honestly say that I haven't changed anything else about my lifestyle. I don't shower more often, haven't introduced any new soaps or clean my clothes different. I think it's the fat that's clearing it up, I can feel that my skin is more oily (in a good way) and has more elasticity.

[Meni]

Quite possibly, although I was never big on wheat or gluten so I'm not sure about that one. I'm thinking it was the severe reduction of carbs and increased fats. When I cycle in a carb day in the next few weeks I'll take some notes. I can honestly say that I haven't changed anything else about my lifestyle. I don't shower more often, haven't introduced any new soaps or clean my clothes different. I think it's the fat that's clearing it up, I can feel that my skin is more oily (in a good way) and has more elasticity.

Sounds like wheat was you're problem. first we had Wheat Belly (book) now Grain Brain: The Surprising Truth about Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers
Keto seems, so great now, lol

edit: adding stuff...

Read a review of Grain Brain and it lists

Here are a few of Dr. Perlmutter's suggestions.

* Skip inflammatory oils like canola or corn oil. Instead, reach for alternatives like coconut or
extra virgin olive oil (I have started popping my popcorn in coconut oil - delicious!)
* Incorporate only grass-fed meats into your diet (corn fed meat lacks omega-3)
* To get more omega-3s in your diet, reach for supplements like DHA, ALA or fish oil.
* Avoid excess fruit & fruit juice. Occasional fruit is OK. Reach for apples or berries.
* Get plenty of sleep
* Exercise often (230% less chance of Alzheimer's)
* Occasional one-day fast (as the seasons change)
* Get enough Vitamin D

everything many keto people already do. I do all of that on the list, hope my brain health is cool.

[WonderPug]

I'm going to do some more reading on insulin. It's a very interesting topic.

Read this, which should help.

[PocketGroove]

Matt, Chicken breast are pointless on a keto diet. Better to go with the dark meat and enjoy the fat and flavor. Also, there is no reason for beans/lentils and especially soy.

[mattvdh]

Matt, Chicken breast are pointless on a keto diet. Better to go with the dark meat and enjoy the fat and flavor. Also, there is no reason for beans/lentils and especially soy.

What if the chicken is fried in butter or coconut oil and stuffed with cheese and ham a la cordon bleu?

[mattvdh]

Read this, which should help.

It's a good read, but I don't see any relation to the subject of insulin. Are you sure you linked the correct article?
Although he did plug a good piece of software I haven't heard of: http://www.nutritionistpro.com/

[mattvdh]

Sounds like wheat was you're problem. first we had Wheat Belly (book) now Grain Brain: The Surprising Truth about Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers
Keto seems, so great now, lol

edit: adding stuff...

Read a review of Grain Brain and it lists

Here are a few of Dr. Perlmutter's suggestions.

* Skip inflammatory oils like canola or corn oil. Instead, reach for alternatives like coconut or
extra virgin olive oil (I have started popping my popcorn in coconut oil - delicious!)
* Incorporate only grass-fed meats into your diet (corn fed meat lacks omega-3)
* To get more omega-3s in your diet, reach for supplements like DHA, ALA or fish oil.
* Avoid excess fruit & fruit juice. Occasional fruit is OK. Reach for apples or berries.
* Get plenty of sleep
* Exercise often (230% less chance of Alzheimer's)
* Occasional one-day fast (as the seasons change)
* Get enough Vitamin D

everything many keto people already do. I do all of that on the list, hope my brain health is cool.

What if you can't afford the absurd price of grass fed beef, can you just supplement with Omega 3 fish oils?

[Shelk87]

What if the chicken is fried in butter or coconut oil and stuffed with cheese and ham a la cordon bleu?

Those look bloody amazing.
/tried to eat screen.

[mattvdh]

I've got all kinds of ways of making chicken keto friendly.
Everything is better when wrapped in bacon and stuffed with cream cheese and chives:

http://blogchef.net/bacon-wrapped-chicken-recipe/

Then there is the mighty 'Turducken'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turducken
Turkey, Duck and Chicken.

Personally, I think it needs to be 'tornadoed in bacon and stuffed with cheese.

[Shelk87]

Damn, I wish I made the time to cook like that. My chicken is typically just made with some herbs, tossed into a low carb wrap with some ranch. Nothing fancy , you've made me hungry all over again.

[mattvdh]

Just wrap everything in bacon and stuff it with cheese, ya can't go wrong.

--------------
sidenote: you can get a free glucose meter here: http://www.myfreestyleinsulinx.ca/

[ramid3]

I'm in nutritional ketosis with high protein intake (and even if direct CHO intake is slightly above 100 gram/d) in large part because of my activity level.

Is there a means of calculating a CHO level to activity level within the keto diet?

I'm following the fairly standard intake allowance, hovering between 30g and 50g of carbs a day, though exercise with both moderate and high intensity 3-5 days a week. While I'm doing just fine with the amount of carbs I've been eating, keto is just as restrictive a diet as I expected it to be, and anything that would enable more flexibility in any way would be helpful.

[WonderPug]

Is there a means of calculating a CHO level to activity level within the keto diet?

There is, but it's complicated and requires special testing equipment.

Your best bet is to simply keep dietary fat intake high -- between 65% of 85% of total caloric intake. Keep protein intake moderate (0.5 to, at most, 0.6 grams per pound of bodyweight) and make sure CHO intake is <30 grams without intensive exercise and less than 60 grams with intensive exercise, with carbs consumed only with fat and where your sources of carbs are just things like fibrous vegetables.