Didn't want to blame hormones....but what now???

[AsmodeusDM]

All,

6'1". 30 old male. 195 pounds 20% body fat.

Been losing weight for a few years now and have lost 140 pounds, last year or so the weight
loss has slowed way wayyyy down. I started trying lots of different techniques but nothing seemed to work. I didn't want to blame a slow metabolism or anything...but decided to finally have some blood work done.

My markers were all good except...

TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone): 1.2 . at low end of range of .45 to 4.5
(they didn't do t3 or t4)

Testosterone:
serum. 286..range is 348 to 1197
free 4.8 range is 8.7 to 25.1

the lab notes said this was extremely low especially given my age.

vitamin D: 27.5 range is 30 to 100


So now what? I'm going to see an Endocrinology doc, but I'm afraid they are just gonna prescribe some stupid drug. Anything I can do to combat this naturally? the symptoms of low T now seem so obvious....lack of energy, low sex drive, belly fat,etc...

I figure there's plenty of folk here who have real life experience with this exact kinda thing.

Thanks!

[Serpentarius]

FWIW, being in an extended deficit will lower the thyroid and testosterone levels. i think eating at maintenance for a couple of weeks then adding calories so you are in a surplus for a few months whilst counting cals/watching the scale should be done before seeking possible hormone therapy that you *may not need*.

The same thing happened to me when i was on a cut, feelings of depression (lack of interest/motivation), low sex drive etc...then BOOM, gone when i had food again.

[fatinNYC]

this is a dumb question... but for low test do they prescribe roids?

[RRJ]

It's probably time for you to eat at maintenance or bulk for a few months. I went from 350-360 to 160 over a few years. By the end I was clawing and scratching in every way I could. I think I was eating 1500 calories and losing 1.5 lbs a week or so, exercising 6 times a week. Then I decided screw it, I'm so fatigued, low energy, etc, and bulked all the way up to 190 over 3 or 4 months. Probably too fast, although I put on 10 lbs of weight within two weeks of coming off the cut. I started a cut again and I'm down to 176, but it feels easier this time. I'm eating 1900-1950 and losing 2.2-2.5 a week right now, better than I was the last time I was 176 and cutting. I'm also benching 40-45 lbs more than I was. Sometimes it is worth taking a break, especially for those of us that have lost a ton of fat. Our bodies are good at adapting to long periods of a shortage or excess of calories (to an extent). My maintenance is at least 200-300 higher than it was just four months ago. It might not seem like a whole lot, but it feels like it to me. Your body will probably produce more testosterone as you get more calories from fats and in general aren't in a deficit. Take a break for a while and pack on muscle.

[Brad805]

You might want to read the thread below. ID researches stuff like crazy and is a good egg.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...&highlight=low

[dmacdonal9]

I've had mine bottom out on a cut before, and last year I fully expected it to come back, but it didn't, and I eventually went on TRT. But it's not fun getting that crap regulated. You need to try to let it come back on it's own before you let them prescribe something. Bring calories slowly back up to maintenance and give it at least a month.

[GarbageJedi]

this is a dumb question... but for low test do they prescribe roids?

Mine did. Then I ate at maint and little above during Thanksgiving causing be to gain weight but also put on some nice mass as well. Now I'm back on my cut.

[AsmodeusDM]

It's probably time for you to eat at maintenance or bulk for a few months. I went from 350-360 to 160 over a few years. By the end I was clawing and scratching in every way I could. I think I was eating 1500 calories and losing 1.5 lbs a week or so, exercising 6 times a week. Then I decided screw it, I'm so fatigued, low energy, etc, and bulked all the way up to 190 over 3 or 4 months. Probably too fast, although I put on 10 lbs of weight within two weeks of coming off the cut. I started a cut again and I'm down to 176, but it feels easier this time. I'm eating 1900-1950 and losing 2.2-2.5 a week right now, better than I was the last time I was 176 and cutting. I'm also benching 40-45 lbs more than I was. Sometimes it is worth taking a break, especially for those of us that have lost a ton of fat. Our bodies are good at adapting to long periods of a shortage or excess of calories (to an extent). My maintenance is at least 200-300 higher than it was just four months ago. It might not seem like a whole lot, but it feels like it to me. Your body will probably produce more testosterone as you get more calories from fats and in general aren't in a deficit. Take a break for a while and pack on muscle.

Yeah that sounds exactly like me.... eating more and bulking sounds pretty good right about now. I really hope this resolves itself normally, I'd hate to have to go on some kinda permanent regime of replacement therapy... Ohhhh how I wish I had never let myself get fat in the first place..

[DJohnson]

I didn't read the other comments so I apologize if I'm rehashing but Vitamin D levels can affect your other hormones a lot. It's December so in Ohio you can't get Vitamin-D from the sun and supplments are a poor subsitute. Therefore, go tan at a place that advertises UV-B bulbs (the kind that help create Vitamin D). Fabutan is good for it. Tan 3-5x a week without fail; Do this for 4 weeks. You should feel 100x better, then get another blood test and report back!

[AsmodeusDM]

I didn't read the other comments so I apologize if I'm rehashing but Vitamin D levels can affect your other hormones a lot. It's December so in Ohio you can't get Vitamin-D from the sun and supplments are a poor subsitute. Therefore, go tan at a place that advertises UV-B bulbs (the kind that help create Vitamin D). Fabutan is good for it. Tan 3-5x a week without fail; Do this for 4 weeks. You should feel 100x better, then get another blood test and report back!

I am woefully ignorant about tanning... but being a "Primal" fan (if not follower) of Mark Sisson I certainly have heard all the benefits of getting natural Vitamin D from sun exposure.

However, long has it been preached about the evils/dangers/immediate cancer of tanning.

Perhaps you could dispel some myths?

[midlifecrisis79]

Since you mentioned you were cutting and would know your macros, how much cholesterol and saturated fats were in your diet? Too little of these coupled with low vitamin D and zinc can cause problems with hormone production. Did they test E2 levels? If so what were they? Did they test SGBH? If so what was the result? E2 and SGHB can both be the problem with your low free T.

My opinion is everyone who is serious and training hard should have a hormone panel drawn after a long bulk for a reference point before any problmes come up. This will be handy to have when problems such as this come up as you will have a baseline to refer back to.

[dmacdonal9]

My opinion is everyone who is serious and training hard should have a hormone panel drawn after a long bulk for a reference point before any problmes come up. This will be handy to have when problems such as this come up as you will have a baseline to refer back to.

I'll say. I'd pay a lot of money to know what my test levels were 5 years ago.

[lee__d]

I've had mine bottom out on a cut before, and last year I fully expected it to come back, but it didn't, and I eventually went on TRT. But it's not fun getting that crap regulated. You need to try to let it come back on it's own before you let them prescribe something. Bring calories slowly back up to maintenance and give it at least a month.

Or find a shady doc to prescribe high doses.

[DJohnson]

I am woefully ignorant about tanning... but being a "Primal" fan (if not follower) of Mark Sisson I certainly have heard all the benefits of getting natural Vitamin D from sun exposure.

However, long has it been preached about the evils/dangers/immediate cancer of tanning.

Perhaps you could dispel some myths?

There's a lot of research you can do by googling but I'll give you my main points:
1. As far as real research goes I can't find any proof that tanning bulbs are any more dangerous than the sun. Much less so due to being able to choose exact exposure vs. winging it with the sun.
2. Having a high average safe sun exposure has shown to decrease cancer levels of a lot of much more fatal cancers while slightly increasing the chance of usually non-fatal skin cancer.
I'm pretty convinced if you play it safe and never burn you don't have to worry about the skin cancer increase anyways. So many people tan and burn.

Also, on the more "primal" level. Your ancestors back for millenia likely had much much more sun exposure including sunburn than you and they lived long enough to thrive and reproduce.

I slowly increase my tanning sessions and never get that high. I don't do it for the dark tan, I do it because I feel great, feel more motivated, less depressed, stronger, warmer, etc.

P.S. I realize I'm super tanned in my avatar. That was Dream Tan for a mock online competition, I'm nowhere near that dark. Lol.

[AsmodeusDM]

Since you mentioned you were cutting and would know your macros, how much cholesterol and saturated fats were in your diet? Too little of these coupled with low vitamin D and zinc can cause problems with hormone production. Did they test E2 levels? If so what were they? Did they test SGBH? If so what was the result? E2 and SGHB can both be the problem with your low free T.

My opinion is everyone who is serious and training hard should have a hormone panel drawn after a long bulk for a reference point before any problmes come up. This will be handy to have when problems such as this come up as you will have a baseline to refer back to.

I have about 3+ years of calorie logging data I would have to sift through to provide a through answer.. but if I just take a random 4-week snapshot from my cutting period:

6/18/12-7/15/12:
2252 calories/day
70g fat, 20g saturated fat
423mg of cholesterol
171g carbs, 34g fiber
143g protein

I've been taking a 5,000 IU vitamin D supplement daily alongside my multivitamin (which also contains some). I also take a magneisum supplement with zinc.

E2 and SGBH levels they did not test.

[midlifecrisis79]

From what you posted above it doesn't look terrible. If you bulk for a while, up your cholesterol a bit. I usually try to take in atleast the equivelent cholesterol of three eggs regardless of cutting or bulking but often eat quite a bit more than three eggs per day during a bulk. Up your saturated fat intake to a level that lets you live with your diet and keep the foods you enjoy. I use organic coconut oil to up my saturated fat intake.

You need a full hormone panel before you think about trt. You need more blood panels than what your doc is doing, if a doc only wants to test T and free T then he or she is not the doc for you. Research for yourself and be your own advocate when it comes to this decision. If you don't like what a doctor is telling you or seems ill educated on the matter then find a different doctor.