Lifting heavy vs Kai Greene method

[y0lked]

Kai Greene is by far THE most motivational and informed body builder i have ever listened to. His "meditation" and mind muscle connection surpass the best.

The "cookie cutter" response for building muscle is and always will be lifting heavy and pushing for weight progression. Kai however believe in the opposite, with high reps and each rep 100% dedicated towards the MMC and perfect form.

I have lifted both ways, but i would like to raise discussion about which would be better for an intermediate lifter for maximum hypertrophy bulking.



Intermediate lifter- say big 3 total of close to 5.5x body weight. can adequately bulk and maintain a diet etc.



what are your thoughts?

[pumplikecuming]

I saw how Kai Green trained before his Olympia's on youtube. Alot of what he says is BS...he was doing doubles and triples, using a bunch of cheating in ugly ass form.



Kai is full of it.

[y0lked]

Thoes sets looked pretty dam good! But your right he definitely is lower in his sets, more like 8-12 reps not 20. But when he utilizes high reps vs heavy is what i would like to know.

[BerserkElite]

Thoes sets looked pretty dam good! But your right he definitely is lower in his sets, more like 8-12 reps not 20. But when he utilizes high reps vs heavy is what i would like to know.

I think anywhere between 1-12 reps per set is adequete for muscle building. It's whether you bring that last rep to the very edge of failure or not that matters. I use a variety of repetitions, and find that to be the most effecient. But, I always end with a set of 3 or 4.

[Jasonk282]

Thoes sets looked pretty dam good! But your right he definitely is lower in his sets, more like 8-12 reps not 20. But when he utilizes high reps vs heavy is what i would like to know.

He had way better form and ROM on his 495lb bench than his 405 bench. I would say that he cycles heavy and high reps like most people do/should be.

This is how you rep heavy weight with full ROM...

[pumplikecuming]

He had way better form and ROM on his 495lb bench than his 405 bench. I would say that he cycles heavy and high reps like most people do/should be.

This is how you rep heavy weight with full ROM...

Hnnnng. This is good form.

[y0lked]

What would be better? Doing heavy compounds AND high repetition exercises in the same workout, or cycling 8 weeks at a time heavy/high rep?

[pumplikecuming]

What would be better? Doing heavy compounds AND high repetition exercises in the same workout, or cycling 8 weeks at a time heavy/high rep?

There is no wrong way to go about it honestly. But for optimal results undulating periodization (different repranges every week) has been proven to be most effective.

So if you had the choice, I would do a heavy day 3-10 reps moderate volume. And a moderate day 8-12 reps high volume. Phat is good but there are many MANY routines that are equally as effective.

[pumplikecuming]

Also just incase you were interested in the studies:

http://www.revistamotricidade.com/ar...n3/v5n3a03.pdf

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab..._Gains.39.aspx

(these are just a few of the many that exhist, all studies done on the matter concluded to non linear periodization as the best for not only strength, but muscle mass as well)

[y0lked]

Also just incase you were interested in the studies:

http://www.revistamotricidade.com/ar...n3/v5n3a03.pdf

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab..._Gains.39.aspx

(these are just a few of the many that exhist, all studies done on the matter concluded to non linear periodization as the best for not only strength, but muscle mass as well)

reps on recharge bro! time to find out which type of undulating program my body likes best!

[Jasonk282]

What would be better? Doing heavy compounds AND high repetition exercises in the same workout, or cycling 8 weeks at a time heavy/high rep?

Both are good.

I do both in the same workout. My bench day was yesterday and this is how it looked.
Bench 3x5
Bench 5x10
pressdown 5x20
Chins ss w/ bench 5x10

[Retardo-pex]

What would be better? Doing heavy compounds AND high repetition exercises in the same workout, or cycling 8 weeks at a time heavy/high rep?

I'm doing this right now. Body part split but bench squat deadlift and ohp all in the 3-6 rep range. everything else is 8-20.

[ironwill2008]

.... lifting heavy and pushing for weight progression.......


.............high reps and each rep 100% dedicated towards the MMC and perfect form.



........... which would be better for an intermediate lifter for maximum hypertrophy bulking.

While each method has it's advantages and disadvantages, and both can produce gains in mass, what's 'better' lies somewhere in the middle of the two.



The only other thing I can think to add is that if you can't actually feel the target muscle working, it's not going to grow in optimal fashion.

[y0lked]

While each method has it's advantages and disadvantages, and both can produce gains in mass, what's 'better' lies somewhere in the middle of the two.



The only other thing I can think to add is that if you can't actually feel the target muscle working, it's not going to grow in optimal fashion.

the only problem i really have with that is heavy benching. as soon as the weight drops and the reps go up for bench i can feel chest but heavy benching has always been my weakness. time to drop the weight and work up i think...

[vollric]

I think anywhere between 1-12 reps per set is adequete for muscle building.

Time under tension is another key component for stimulating growth, I don't think 1 rep would suffice, atleast a 4-6 rep range if your going heavy would sound more adequate.

[Jasonk282]

Time under tension is another key component for stimulating growth, I don't think 1 rep would suffice, atleast a 4-6 rep range if your going heavy would sound more adequate.

Muscle is built in all rep ranges, just different types of muscle.

[Jasonk282]

the only problem i really have with that is heavy benching. as soon as the weight drops and the reps go up for bench i can feel chest but heavy benching has always been my weakness. time to drop the weight and work up i think...

It could be that you have form issues when it gets heavy.

[vollric]

Muscle is built in all rep ranges, just different types of muscle.

So 1 rep would actually stimulate muscle growth? Doesn't seem accurate?

[pumplikecuming]

Muscle is built in all rep ranges, just different types of muscle.

Just curious...

what do you mean different types of muscle?

[vollric]

Just curious...

what do you mean different types of muscle?

He means fast twitch, slow twitch, etc. But I disagree with a 1 rep range would actually stimulate hypertrophy.

[pumplikecuming]

He means fast twitch, slow twitch, etc. But I disagree with a 1 rep range would actually stimulate hypertrophy.

I know, that was my point. You can't target fast twitch muscle fibers with low reps and type I with high reps...all the small ones will hypertrophy as well as the bigger ones when using a heavy weight. SAID principle.

(Campos GE,
Luecke TJ, Wendeln HK, Toma K, Hagerman FC, Murray TF, Ragg KE, Ratamess NA,
Kraemer WJ, Staron RS. Muscular adaptations in response to three different resistance-training
regimens: specificity of repetition maximum training zones. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2002
Nov;88(1-2):50-60.)

They used an 8-week high-intensity training program for the legs. Workouts were performed 2 days/week for the first 4 weeks and 3 days/week for the final 4 weeks. The subjects used one of three different regimens. The different training regimens were designed to be approximately equal in volume (resistance x repetitions x sets) with the rest periods between sets and exercises adjusted according to the strength-endurance continuum. Therefore, those individuals working on the high-rep end of the continuum performed fewer sets and had shorter rest periods compared with the other training groups.

The exercises were performed in the fixed order of leg press, squat, and knee extension. After warming up:

· The Low-Rep group used their 3-5RM for four sets with 3 min rest between sets and
exercises.

· The Intermediate-Rep group used their 9-11RM for three sets with 2 min rest.

· The High-Rep group used their 20-28 RM for two sets with 1 min rest.
During the study, the resistance was progressively increased as subjects were able to perform
more reps in order to ensure subjects were always using their true RM for each rep range.

So what happened? Did the type-I fibers increase most in the high-rep group? Did only the
type-II fibers hypertrophy in the low rep group? If you believe you must do high reps for type-I
fibers to grow and low reps for type-II fibers to grow then that’s exactly what should have
happened!

On the other hand, if hypertrophy is a matter of load, and all fibers hypertrophy in response to
increasing load, then hypertrophy should go up as load goes up. In other words the group that
lifted the heaviest relative weight should have experienced the greatest amount of hypertrophy
in ALL fiber types irrespective of the number of reps (within reason). And that is exactly what
happened.

Here is a breakdown of the hypertrophy caused by each rep range. [Remember, each group
trained to failure regardless of RM used so muscular fatigue was equal between groups.]

High-Rep (20-28RM)
Type-I
· pre = 3894 post = 4297 (10.3% increase)
Type-IIA
· pre = 5217 post = 5633 (8.0% increase)
Type-IIB
· pre = 4564 post = 5181 (13.5% increase)

Med-Rep (9-11RM)
Type-I
· pre = 4155 post = 4701 (13.1% increase)
Type-IIA
· pre = 5238 post = 6090 (16.3% increase)
Type-IIB
· pre = 4556 post = 5798 (27.3% increase)

Low-Rep (3-5RM)
Type-I
· pre = 4869 post = 5475 (12.4% increase)
Type-IIA
· pre = 5615 post = 6903 (22.9% increase) Type-IIB
· pre = 4926 post = 6171 (25.3% increase)

Higher loads with equivalent volume leads to greater
hypertrophy regardless of fiber type. I

It still surprises me that myths this old are still alive.

[Engineer_Guy]

He means fast twitch, slow twitch, etc. But I disagree with a 1 rep range would actually stimulate hypertrophy.

Any amount of work will stimulate hypertrophy. Even a heavy single is not 100% neural, you still use the muscle to do work against resistance and the muscle will break down. The degree of hypertrophy is what changes with different volume and intensities.

[ironwill2008]

... time to drop the weight and work up i think...

This is always the first, best approach to correcting form/MMC issues.

Get back to a weight you can actually feel in the target muscle, and then stay there for a few weeks. As you gradually add weight back to the bar week-to-week, strive to keep that same feeling in the muscles. If you lose it, cut the weight back slightly until you find it again.

This method will wreak havoc on your bench 'numbers,' but it will pay maximum dividends in stimulating growth.

[Jasonk282]

He means fast twitch, slow twitch, etc. But I disagree with a 1 rep range would actually stimulate hypertrophy.

So people that do singles, doubles and triples are not building muscle...really?

[vollric]

So people that do singles, doubles and triples are not building muscle...really?

Not sure what you mean by singles doubles triples, as in sets? But regarding rep range I can't see how doing 1 rep would be more beneficial then a 4-6 range with heavy weight. Trying to make progress like that would take ages.

[Jasonk282]

Not sure what you mean by singles doubles triples, as in sets? But regarding rep range I can't see how doing 1 rep would be more beneficial then a 4-6 range with heavy weight. Trying to make progress like that would take ages.

heavy singles, heavy doubles, heavy triples...

Well it will make you stronger which will then allow you to handle heavier weight at a higher rep range. Who's stronger the guy that can squat 225x5(260 1RM) or 300x5(350 1RM)? People need to get stronger in ALL rep ranges not just focus on 1-5, 4-6, or 8-12.

[vollric]

heavy singles, heavy doubles, heavy triples...

Well it will make you stronger which will then allow you to handle heavier weight at a higher rep range.

That does make sense, would working the specific muscle group be more beneficial twice a week then since your lifting at a lower volume/rep scheme?

[Jasonk282]

That does make sense, would working the specific muscle group be more beneficial twice a week then since your lifting at a lower volume/rep scheme?

No need to do it 2x a week...but you can if you want.

You can do it all in one workout if you'd like.

For example take chest/tri

barbell bench 5x3, 3x5, 5x5(ramping) or 3x3
DB/BB bench press 5x10 @ 60% max
cable pressdowns 5x20

The only thing is that you need to know your actual or calculated 1RM since intensity is based on % of 1RM.

[martial-man420]

heavy singles, heavy doubles, heavy triples...

Well it will make you stronger which will then allow you to handle heavier weight at a higher rep range. Who's stronger the guy that can squat 225x5(260 1RM) or 300x5(350 1RM)? People need to get stronger in ALL rep ranges not just focus on 1-5, 4-6, or 8-12.

Is that definitely accurate?

It seems to me that people who trains entirely in the 8-12 rep category would be stronger in 10RM than someone who only trains using singles and doubles. But maybe I'm wrong. Normally however people get good at what they're practicing.

Maybe i'm not understanding your point.

[Jasonk282]

Is that definitely accurate?

It seems to me that people who trains entirely in the 8-12 rep category would be stronger in 10RM than someone who only trains using singles and doubles. But maybe I'm wrong. Normally however people get good at what they're practicing.

Maybe i'm not understanding your point.

You'll notice that I said this in the very same post you quoted...

People need to get stronger in ALL rep ranges not just focus on 1-5, 4-6, or 8-12.

You can't train using singles and doubles ALL the time, your CNS will wear out fast. So you back it off with higher rep stuff.