Dorian Yates style of training - going past failure: necessary or not

[norref123]

Do I have to go beyond positive failure on my working sets for this type of training to be effective?

Thanks

[DYTrainer]

There are a lot of variables that could be in play here. I use what Yate's has as more of an outline. If you watch the videos here, blood and guts, week in the dungeon, and listen to his seminars you will hear different things here and there. I personally like utilizing rest-pause and drop sets. Not a huge fan of static holds and negatives (those are already in play utilizing the correct rep tempo) as I feel those really lead to a burn out. Try if for yourself. On some exercises use rest-pause or a drop set. Just be careful not to get to high in the reps. Here's and example of a chest workout:

1) Decline Bench
-3 Warm ups ( I count just the bar as a warm up just to get the motion down)
-Working Set to failure 6-8 Reps
-Rest Pause, probably 2 reps, rest then probably get 1 more rep or
-Drop Set: Drop the weight and try to get 4-6 Reps

2) Incline DB Press
-2 Warm ups
-Working set to failure 6-8 Reps
Either Rest Pause or Drop Set as mentioned in #1

3) Flye Either Flat or Incline
-1 Warm Up
-Working set to failure 10-12 Reps

4) Cable Crossovers
-1 Warm Up
-Working Set to failure 10-12 Reps
-Maybe a static hold either on the last rep or rack the weight and try for one static hold
--Really focus on the static as using a cable machine will put tension in the fully contracted position. ( BB and DB dont)


So there's an outline where you could get started. It's hard to say you should do "xyz" as there are other factors that I don't know about, such as nutrition ( should be in a calorie surplus), training history, existing muscle mass, etc. So to answer your question, no. Things to go beyond positive failure a tools in the arsenal. Experiment to see what you like and what you respond best to:
-Static Holds ( be careful with these as if you aren't used to them they will make you sore, especially your calves)
-Rest-Pause
-Drop Sets
-Forced Reps- Need a good training partner for this one
-Negatives - Need a good training partner
-Pre-exhausting- Leg extensions before leg press/squats. Experimented with that one and really didnt like it.

This way of training breaks down to a couple things:

1) Progressive Overload, increasing in weight and/or reps each workout (get a notebook, phone add, something to track)
2) Using a rep tempo where you control the negative, hold in the fully contracted position, and explode under control in the positive
3) Using correct form. ie curls arent a fully body lift, and the ribs aren't a spring to bounce the bar in a bench press
4) Allowing your body to recover, as by not using a crazy amount of volume

I'd try to find those other videos I mentioned to get a good idea of what to do. I believe the seminars are on md.com or flex, cant remember.

[dxVxb]

Do I have to go beyond positive failure on my working sets for this type of training to be effective?

Thanks

well im not sure which workout your talking about but I found one workout that dorian yates "does" on muscleandbrawn com/dorian-yates-workout-routine/.

now your question on if its going to be effective?
firstly, and i dont mean this in a disrespectful way, but looking at his workout there is no way you should reach failure doing those sets and reps (assuming your using a weight thats roughly 60% 1RM. which you would have too, to be able to do 12 reps of anything).

also reaching failure is never a good thing if your looking to get into shape. and what i mean by get into shape i mean to be physically able to preform, not too look big and awesome, or too have a six pack that would make a greek god blush (which is never a bad thing). but failure is usually very high reps to get the cut look, and depending on where you are in your workout regime, that is if you still need to gain strength or size, high reps may not be what your looking for.

but to ask if its going to be effective? yeah itll make you cut, working beyond failure. but more importantly, is it good? Hell No. youll end up over training, which is bad since it actually ends up weakening your muscles and tendons which in the end would put you back a couple workouts with the amount of time you would have to take off to heal.

From everything iv seen of dorian yates, i would imagine his workout to be similar to a gymnast, or a mma fighter, which is plenty of cardio and conditioning, and body weight exercises.

good luck and hope i could give you some thoughts on the subject =).

[trader vlad]

I been doing DY Blood & Guts (slightly modified) for the past 4 months, i made some noticeable aesthetic gains, more impressive gains than other program's i've tried (madcow 5x5, p90x,body4life). I go to failure on the last set of every exercise. Since i train alone i only go past failure on unilateral exercises such as curls, tricep extensions, lat raises. Also i explode on the positive and emphasize the negative taking about 3-4 secs to lower the weight after every positive. I think the most important factor for the effectiveness of a workout is intensity, and going to failure helps you make sure you work each body part as intensely as you can. I say try it for a few months and see how you feel/look.

[DYTrainer]

well im not sure which workout your talking about but I found one workout that dorian yates "does" on muscleandbrawn com/dorian-yates-workout-routine/.

now your question on if its going to be effective?
firstly, and i dont mean this in a disrespectful way, but looking at his workout there is no way you should reach failure doing those sets and reps (assuming your using a weight thats roughly 60% 1RM. which you would have too, to be able to do 12 reps of anything).

He gives specific rep ranges. Usually 6-8 for upper body and 12-15 on lower. Not sure where you 12 reps.

also reaching failure is never a good thing if your looking to get into shape. and what i mean by get into shape i mean to be physically able to preform, not too look big and awesome, or too have a six pack that would make a greek god blush (which is never a bad thing)..

Well this is a bodybuilding website, so one would assume OP is looking to put on lean muscle mass, or "look big and awesome"

but failure is usually very high reps to get the cut look, and depending on where you are in your workout regime, that is if you still need to gain strength or size, high reps may not be what your looking for.

I see, so high reps "tones" and low reps "build mass".

but to ask if its going to be effective? yeah itll make you cut, working beyond failure. but more importantly, is it good? Hell No. youll end up over training, which is bad since it actually ends up weakening your muscles and tendons which in the end would put you back a couple workouts with the amount of time you would have to take off to heal.

From everything iv seen of dorian yates, i would imagine his workout to be similar to a gymnast, or a mma fighter, which is plenty of cardio and conditioning, and body weight exercises.

good luck and hope i could give you some thoughts on the subject =).

Wow, just wow. Are you we are talking about the same Dorian Yates here? You have so much just wrong information here.

[norref123]

One more thing,
What about blasting and cruising,
Yates says on his video to blast for 6 weeks and then lower the weight for 2 weeks.
Do I have to use the same number of reps for my sets without going to failure?

[dxVxb]

for me personally i find that higher reps dont bloat my muscles up and i instead feel as if i look more defined when im not flexing.

secondly, this is a bodybuilding site. you think so? but not everyone here is looking for size, there is strength training. I know tons of people in the gym who are twice as big as me and have huge arms and look "awesome" but lift less than me on everything. and i think thats dumb. whats the use of looking like a badass if your just lifting like a B*itch (pardon my french).

and thirdly lol, no were not talking about the same dorian yates =p my bad. I had a total brain fart and was thinking of someone else =p so yeah, non of what i said is relevant.

[DYTrainer]

...non[e] of what i said is relevant.

Yep, sums up nicely your participation in this thread.

[dxVxb]

Yep, sums up nicely your participation in this thread.

no need to be a penis breath about it.