How I failed keto and what YOU can do to succeed at it!

[Athasling]

Jeez, maybe we should just eliminate the entire fitness industry because enlightened individuals like yourself can just tell everyone to "find what works for them"

lol...nice. I always laugh at guys whose answer to everthing is "everybody is different." Yes, everybody is different, but there are general fitness principles that apply to every human body. There are plain and simple ways the human body works and there are no ways around it. One guy may have to alter a regime that has worked great for somebody else to make optimal gains for himself, but the basic principles remain the same.

[Athasling]

Jay seems to be getting a lot of flak about his post, but he defends himself with intelligent answers. He is a reputable guy and is very knowledgable so I don't understand why guys with 60 posts and no rep come on here and say he is wrong. There were a lot of false assumptions made regarding his post. Everybody has their own opinion and that is great but what Jay says is basically correct. It is good to be skeptical, guys, so we don't just believe everything we hear, but we also have to be open to new and different ideas to keep expanding our knowledge and to keep the gains coming.

[RubberGuard]

Jay seems to be getting a lot of flak about his post, but he defends himself with intelligent answers. He is a reputable guy and is very knowledgable so I don't understand why guys with 60 posts and no rep come on here and say he is wrong. There were a lot of false assumptions made regarding his post. Everybody has their own opinion and that is great but what Jay says is basically correct. It is good to be skeptical, guys, so we don't just believe everything we hear, but we also have to be open to new and different ideas to keep expanding our knowledge and to keep the gains coming.

So a guy with 100 posts and no rep can come on and defend his post?

I'm always open to new ideas, whether or not I choose to agree with them is entirely my choice. If the original post (and poster's attitude) was in more of a guideline manner and not a "be all and end all" of a low carb diet, then I probably wouldn't have replied at all.

Attitude adjustment.

[TaoistWarrior]

Jeez, maybe we should just eliminate the entire fitness industry because enlightened individuals like yourself can just tell everyone to "find what works for them"

Because I dare to propose that there are slight variations in the way each person will respond to the same diet, and therefore should tailor it accordingly?

Well, Jeez brah, why are there so many workout schemes with differing weights and reps, why don't we all just the lift the same way? Since we already know all there is to know about exercise physiology and everyone will respond exactly the same way? No reason for people to try to figure out how to tailor the basic principles in small ways to work optimally for them. And I guess everybody should use the exact same supplement regimes also; they'll respond the same to those also.

Diet is just one of the pillars of bodybuilding that has some room for exploration. No, you can't escape the Krebs cycle or urea formation, but yes, if you find that processed dairy stalls your progress or makes you feel ****ty, or no, too much cured meats don't work for you, or yes, your body actually does quite well on 50grams of carbs a day but no less, or yes, you need a mid-week carb spike, by all means, spend some time figuring that stuff out.

I am not getting why you have a problem with that idea since you stated in the first place that

However, some bodybuilders have found huge success with these diets. Maybe it's a genetic thing. Some people's body chemistry is made for low carbs while other's isn't.

We are all here for the same reason, to expand the body of knowledge about training and diet. I wasn't tearing you down man. I simply take exception to your idea that

Some things work for everyone. The advice I posted is an example. Unless you're not human.

Like you stated originally, there are invididual differences in how people respond so they should explore these differences to optimize the diet. That's exactly what you did- and you discovered, after all, that your body prefers a higher-carb diet.

[Athasling]

So a guy with 100 posts and no rep can come on and defend his post?

I'm always open to new ideas, whether or not I choose to agree with them is entirely my choice. If the original post (and poster's attitude) was in more of a guideline manner and not a "be all and end all" of a low carb diet, then I probably wouldn't have replied at all.

Attitude adjustment.

That's not what I'm saying at all Rubber. I actually welcome guys to throw in their different views and believe in different variations of training and nutrition. But there are certain ways the human body works. Yes, everybody is different, but the principles generally remain the same and I think that's what Jay was trying to say. I don't think he meant his post to be a "be all and end all" of a keto diet but rather some basic principles he would recommened because of personal experience.

[schismatik]

Thank you Jayrawd for this post. Very helpful response and you answered some questions I've had, but did not want to start a thread over because I'm sure it's been asked before, hehe.

I began a carb up today and have kept fluid intake low and i have yet to run into bloating. It has made my carb-up day very enjoyable thus far hehe.

The only non-enjoyable part of this carb up though is that i'm feeling more hungry eating carbs than the standard keto diet :[..I just keep thinking about my next meal as my stomach growls.

[srish]

The lack of reading comprehension on this forum is astounding. Jeez, did the ketones keep you brain fogged?

My comment was never directed toward anything you said specifically, it was a generalization. Ive read tons of threads that say you lose muscle on this diet. Well, bottom line is i dont lose, i gain muscle. Im proof that this can work, so relax.

[Jay Rawd]

My comment was never directed toward anything you said specifically, it was a generalization. Ive read tons of threads that say you lose muscle on this diet. Well, bottom line is i dont lose, i gain muscle. Im proof that this can work, so relax.

I lost it because I didn't follow the advice I posted. Hence, why the thread was made. Basically, every one of my points was some rule that I violated.

I did high intensity cardio, not a good idea while in ketosis.

I did full-body glycogen depleting splits, not a good idea while in ketosis.

I did high volume exercise, not a good idea while in a caloric deficit.

I drank a huge amount of water during carb-up, not a good idea physique-wise.

I cut calories from protein, never a good idea when cutting. Ever.

[Jay Rawd]

I would also like to mention that if you're a person with Metabolic Syndrome, do TKD instead of CKD because CKD causes you to run into all the problems you're trying to avoid in the first place. Limit red meat consumption as well. Even though it's no carbs, it's very insulinogenic.

[Jaws08]

I would also like to mention that if you're a person with Metabolic Syndrome, do TKD instead of CKD because CKD causes you to run into all the problems you're trying to avoid in the first place. Limit red meat consumption as well. Even though it's no carbs, it's very insulinogenic.

no it is not. The insulin index is derived under circumstances where protein is converted to glucose hence insulin production. Beef causes faster gluconeogensis because it is digested easier and quicker than other meats.

[frankgpass]

I have a few questions about this...so can I maintain what I have muscle wise on a Keto diet? My main goal here is to lose the fat around my midsection. I am big enough and I don't need to GAIN mass I just want to stay where I am while cutting off the excess fat I have. I'm looking to lose about 7-8% BF

Also, what are the possible negative effects of this..can you actually gain fat if you don't do this properly?

[Clamz]

You too.

Slow, steady? Why the hell would anyone concerned with hypertrophy lift like that? Plus, you have to make your sets very long if you hope to burn fat. Problem is, once your sets get too long you're no longer training for mass but for endurance.

long sets to burn fat when we're already in fat burning mode?

Bizarre thread where people clamor to ask questions to a guy who couldn't hack the keto diet.

[frankgpass]

long sets to burn fat when we're already in fat burning mode?

Bizarre thread where people clamor to ask questions to a guy who couldn't hack the keto diet.

Funny/Good point.

[DietSpam]

I have a few questions about this...so can I maintain what I have muscle wise on a Keto diet?

That's one of the main benefits being promoted with this diet along with rapid fat loss from what I've read.

My main goal here is to lose the fat around my midsection. I am big enough and I don't need to GAIN mass I just want to stay where I am while cutting off the excess fat I have. I'm looking to lose about 7-8% BF
Also, what are the possible negative effects of this..can you actually gain fat if you don't do this properly?

Same simple principles apply to this diet as any. Burn more calories than you consume in a day will result to weight loss. To maintain your existing muscle, you need to be consuming a sufficient amount of protein for your body and keep lifting to maintain that strength. For keto, it's suggested that you lift heavy and less reps. These are just the basics that I've read and try to follow on any diet.

You can gain fat on any diet if done poorly. A lot of success will just come down to having a good diet plan and discipline to stick to it.

[frankgpass]

That's one of the main benefits being promoted with this diet along with rapid fat loss from what I've read.

Same simple principles apply to this diet as any. Burn more calories than you consume in a day will result to weight loss. To maintain your existing muscle, you need to be consuming a sufficient amount of protein for your body and keep lifting to maintain that strength. For keto, it's suggested that you lift heavy and less reps. These are just the basics that I've read and try to follow on any diet.

You can gain fat on any diet if done poorly. A lot of success will just come down to having a good diet plan and discipline to stick to it.

Ok well I'm gonna stick to what I'm doing then...hopefully this works! thanks

[Jay Rawd]

long sets to burn fat when we're already in fat burning mode?

Bizarre thread where people clamor to ask questions to a guy who couldn't hack the keto diet.

Have you even studied basic human anatomy? THERE IS NO FAT BURNING MODE DURING ANAEROBIC ACTIVITY.

The ATP-PCr system runs primarily on carbs, and if those are insufficient it rusn on protein. It doesn't run on fat or ketones. Get a basic physiology book and learn from it.

But no, you're an expert. You can bring up nothing but ad hominem attacks and terrible (I mean TERRIBLE) understanding of how the human body works.

[Jay Rawd]

Funny/Good point.

It isn't because he is an idiot know-it-all who hasn't even researched the basic energy systems and substrate utilization. There is no good point there. It is funny how he thinks, though.

[Jay Rawd]

no it is not. The insulin index is derived under circumstances where protein is converted to glucose hence insulin production. Beef causes faster gluconeogensis because it is digested easier and quicker than other meats.

Unfortunately this doesn't address the fact that it is as insulinogenic as carb foods. Not a good idea to have super high levels of insulin if you're a pre-diabetic. The only time this doesn't matter is around the workout.

[¡STFU!ˇNˆLIFT!]

Jay why do you keep throwing out atr-pc .. Keto doesn't even run on the Krebs cycle ..

If you are strength training lifting does use fat . WTF are mitochondria sir ?

On ANY diet in a caloric deficit you shouldnt be training hi reps to build muscle or to achieve any tipping of training scales towards hypertrophy induction ..

The sole purpose should be to maintain muscle . 3-5 reps per say ? ! ..

rippetoe type workouts are good - keeping higher rep work for post carb up days ..

I am doing madkow next Keto round

[Clamz]

It isn't because he is an idiot know-it-all who hasn't even researched the basic energy systems and substrate utilization. There is no good point there. It is funny how he thinks, though.

wow you got all that from one sentence I said? you sound like an insecure douche. Once a person is fat adapted, fat is being used for energy, regardless of aerobic or anaerobic activity. Like I said you couldn't hack the diet, you don't understand it, or the body, and you apparently read one article on energy systems and think you're a guru.

But no, you're an expert. You can bring up nothing but ad hominem attacks and terrible (I mean TERRIBLE) understanding of how the human body works.

funny how you bring up ad hominem attacks considering that first quote there. And you coming into keto without understanding how energy systems work in relation to this diet? that's terrible. (I mean TERRIBLE) lol

[Jay Rawd]

wow you got all that from one sentence I said? you sound like an insecure douche. Once a person is fat adapted, fat is being used for energy, regardless of aerobic or anaerobic activity. Like I said you couldn't hack the diet, you don't understand it, or the body, and you apparently read one article on energy systems and think you're a guru.

No, they're called physiology and anatomy textbooks. Do you want me to give you the ISBN numbers so you can order them and check it out for yourself?

It doesn't matter how fat adapted you are. You can't change the way the body works. Substrate utilization is constant in the energy systems.

funny how you bring up ad hominem attacks considering that first quote there. And you coming into keto without understanding how energy systems work in relation to this diet? that's terrible. (I mean TERRIBLE) lol

Okay then genius. Show me any real-world example where anaerobic activity via the Phosphocreatine system was fueled by ketones. You can use pubmed, wiki, anything. Show me any example where ketones fuel anaerobic activity. The only thing you're not allowed to use is someone else's post unless there are references to studies done on the subject or even a page number of a textbook that says so.

Heck, the existence of a carb-up on CKD or carb meals before/after workouts on TKD prove you wrong. If ketones were used by the body during weightlifting, then why don't bodybuilders ever use straight keto diets with NO carb-ups and NO carb meals beforehand?

Actually, it IS possible to do so without eating carbs, but the energy doesn't come from ketones, it comes from dietary protein via gluconeogenesis. Chuck Rudolph and Marc Lobliner's Carb Hater's Anonymous Diet does this by having the dieter eat insane amounts of Protein to produce glucose. No carbs are present, but the protein fuels the workouts, not the fat. That's why the diet is almost isocalorically matched between fat and protein. So in other words, it is possible to fuel workouts without carbs, but call me crazy but I'd rather just have carbs be my glucose than let precious protein go to waste (as well as my money from buying so many supplements and cans of tuna).

So, whenever you're working out in ketosis, be sure that your protein (dietary if sufficient, muscle mass if insufficient) is fueling your workouts, not your fat.

I guess all these successful bodybuilders like Layne Norton and Alfredo Nunez must fail so badly on their carb-laden diets since they never enter TEH FAT BURNIN MODEZ

[Jay Rawd]

Jay why do you keep throwing out atr-pc .. Keto doesn't even run on the Krebs cycle ..

Krebs cycle isn't part of ATP-Pcr, genius.

If you are strength training lifting does use fat . WTF are mitochondria sir ?

They are certainly not used in strength training of such short duration.

Now, not one energy system is ever responsible for the entire workload, but you can be sure that the ATP-PCr is responsible for the MAJORITY of your workload when lifting. This means that you MIGHT be using some fat for energy (very minimal) but definitely using dietary protein if in ketosis. If this wasn't the case, why do we carb-up to refill glycogen stores?

On ANY diet in a caloric deficit you shouldnt be training hi reps to build muscle or to achieve any tipping of training scales towards hypertrophy induction ..

The sole purpose should be to maintain muscle . 3-5 reps per say ? ! ..

Training high reps (which is stupid if bodybuilding) is unfortunately the only way we can make weightlifting tap into the oxidative system. And by high reps I mean in the hundreds since it takes at least 3 minutes to enter this oxidative (fat utilizing) system.

rippetoe type workouts are good - keeping higher rep work for post carb up days ..

Don't know why you'd want higher reps when you have the glycogen READILY AVAILABLE for low rep work. Low reps use carbs, super-high reps (over 100) use fat. But super high reps don't build mass so that's why we refill our glyco-stores.

[Clamz]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...?dopt=Abstract

there's a study about lipolysis occurring during brief heavy resistance training. I wasn't saying that the muscle itself is fueled by ketones but that the body is in a fat burning state regardless of aerobic or anaerobic.

[CanuckTank]

Jay seems to be getting a lot of flak about his post, but he defends himself with intelligent answers. He is a reputable guy and is very knowledgable so I don't understand why guys with 60 posts and no rep come on here and say he is wrong. There were a lot of false assumptions made regarding his post. Everybody has their own opinion and that is great but what Jay says is basically correct. It is good to be skeptical, guys, so we don't just believe everything we hear, but we also have to be open to new and different ideas to keep expanding our knowledge and to keep the gains coming.

Yea, all your 120 posts should set everyone straight right? There are people with 1000s of post saying he is wrong and that makes more sense than listening to you beeing a noob cheerleader in the corner.

[Jay Rawd]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...?dopt=Abstract

there's a study about lipolysis occurring during brief heavy resistance training. I wasn't saying that the muscle itself is fueled by ketones but that the body is in a fat burning state regardless of aerobic or anaerobic.

Nobody said that lipolysis doesn't occur during exercise. Like I said earlier, there is not ONE energy system being used at any time. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the energy during weight training comes from carbs. I did say a little comes from fat, but let's be realistic and admit that you probably burn as much fat during lifting as you build as much muscle. Not only that, but the study clearly showed a reduction in glycogen content.

Here's another thing that wasn't taken into account. Were these bodybuilders in ketosis? if so, their glycogen levels might not have been high enough. No mention is made of the metabolic state in the study. Had they been in ketosis, the glucose might have come from the dietary protein (or muscle mass) if glycogen stores were insufficiently filled. Obviously not a good idea to get your carbs from your protein unless your protein is insanely high (like 2g/lb). Problem is, few keto dieters eat that much protein.

[ozzyaaron]

It seems to me like the original poster didn't have a very good understanding of how Ketogenic Diets actually function. I agreed with 2 of the points but not the rest. Keep sets short and heavy, yes. Forget ketostix, yeah for the most part, but they work for me most of the time. Also I found my cardio performance went way up and I kept all my muscle mass and actually gained some. I've heard stories from both extemes of the spectrum though. Try it to see where you fit in the spectrum I guess.

The reason why ketosis doesn't require high protein intake (1g/lb is actually fairly high against general population) is that if protein intake is too high the body doesn't adapt to fat usage for energy and will continue to metabolise dietary and potentially stored protein for glucose.

The body can form ATP from stored and dietary fat after they are converted to fatty acids. Hormonal changes (increase in Glucagon) trigger the body to start to use ketones for energy. The glycerol (along with other fatty acids) that was generated when the stored fat was converted to fatty acids and glycerol can then be metabolised into glucose for use by cells that cannot utilise ketones and fatty acids for energy.

ATP is used for energy work up to about 20-30secs depending on your training level. You can develop workouts around this that will absolutely gain strength and muscle. In the end you aren't gaining muscle in the gym so much as in the kitchen and in your bed. Honestly I find after a week or two I bring way more energy and intensity to all my exercise. Whether it's running, cycling, jiu jitsu or weights. That's me. For others it may not be the same, but there is only one way to find out. To claim weights NEED carbs isn't true though. You may FEEL that way, but it's not fact.

The process of fat adaption seems to commonly take 1-3 weeks, just because you are in ketosis or show up a high ketone concentration in your urine doesn't mean that your body has adapted completely. Some people recommend a 2 week inception phase of complete keto dieting before moving on to TKD or CKD.

Ketones are primary for protein sparing and the process of shifting into this phase is triggered because your body is using bodily protein for glucose. In other words it's a response to starving. That's why fasting on Keto can work so well, you're already in a starving state.

If you don't drink water during a carb up then you are missing the point. You cannot store glycogen without water. It's basically one glucose molecule with THREE water molecules. That's why you store fat before glycogen because fat is stored with not water (adipose tissue does contain small % of water) and so more energy dense. The reason you need to drink when in ketosis is because fat metabolism requires water. You'll be thirsty. Eating carbs doesn't rehydrate you.

If you are stalling then just drop your calories at the same % as you had before or increase exercise slightly. Dont' overreact to one weeks stallign though either. Don't increase protein intake as that could possibly trigger your body to move back to metabolising protein for glucose. Having a high protein intake is not what spares stored protein in a ketogenic or fat adapted state. This is a common misconception about ketogenic dieting.

I think in the end the only way to know what will work well for you is to try it. I just hate to see misinformation spread because something didn't work for someone. This style of dieting obviously works for some people (it did for me) and I don't think there is anything to learn of any value from this thread if you are considering a keto style diet. Instead I'd check out the stickies from the Keto thread.

I have tried a BUNCH of systems in teh last 4 years since losing 100kg, and I've tried TKD. It worked, it worked very well for me. Then again I cannot do carbs. I don't care what people say about thermodynamics and stuff (I'm a formatlly trained Engineer) but I find it WAY harder to lose weight when eating 150-200g of carbs than if I'm eating 50g of carbs.

So I think rather than sit here debating (some people are flat out spreading misinformation and saying stuff they can't know to be true - because they're wrong) just give it a try for a month if you're interested, otherwise forget about this thread. As I said, there is great info in the Keto diet sub forum in the stickies.

[HighRevinSi]

Basic physiology contradicts you. The ATP-PCr system runs on glycogen only. If it can't get glycogen from carbs, it gets them from protein. You can't turn fat into carbs.

Of course the body can turn fat for energy. Energy which can be used in oxidative states only. You just can't change it. End of story.

This

[¡STFU!ˇNˆLIFT!]

I didn't say it was part of the Krebs cycle man . I threw that out there because we are talking about Keto - not standard at all and not much "SOLID" sports nutrition that backs it ..

And if you are doing LOW REPS - you have no need to tap into ENERGY systems and use anerobic pathways .. think about it ..

Matter of fact on this board there have been studies posted showing 101% that lo intensity strength training needs no glycogen whatsover .i dont wanna find them

and as long as ffa are in circulation from food and bodyfat - your mitochondria ( unless you have a very low count aka no muscles ) or a problem which where they don't function correctly - thats where the free fats go to be used as FUEL ..

think of the difference between your body operating optimally once fat adapted and your ****head constant quoting that exercise requires carbs .

So um where does the fat go to be burned from the body when it is burned jay

[Atavis]

Basic physiology contradicts you. The ATP-PCr system runs on glycogen only. If it can't get glycogen from carbs, it gets them from protein. You can't turn fat into carbs.

Of course the body can turn fat for energy. Energy which can be used in oxidative states only. You just can't change it. End of story.

Just a small correction to the bolded statement. When the body liberates ffa from adipose tissue it also liberates glycerol.

Glycerol along with lactate and amino acids serve as the major substrates for gluconeogenesis. Fatty acids are used with acetyl CoA in the liver to provide energy for the process and ketones as well.

[¡STFU!ˇNˆLIFT!]

When did you get so damn Ketofied smart n **** atavis .. You continue to impress me

:-)

tried to rep you - where did rep go