For those who try to maximise muscle protein synthesis

[Goshtin]

Jorn Trommelen on ********:

"A new study from our lab shows that eating large amounts of protein before sleep does not blunt muscle protein synthesis rates the next morning (either fasted MPS rates or the MPS response to protein). We speculated that there might be a negative feedback loop, where large amounts of protein might diminish the response to protein at subsequent meals. However, there was no difference between the groups.

These data suggest that every meal moment is a ''unique window of opportunity'' and that all meals work additively to optimize muscle protein synthesis rates in a day. If you miss a meal, you miss the opportunity to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. And it does not seem you can compensate that at subsequent meals. But as a protein meal can stimulate MPS for at least 5 hours, these data do not mean you should eat every 2-3 hours like it is 1990."

https://www.********.com/nutritionta...98394170375525

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/conten...ndo.00325.2016

I'm somewhat scientifically illiterate but would eating every 2.5/3 hours (protein feedings) negatively affect MPS? Have we established a minimum acceptable down time between protein feedings? I like to eat 4-6 times a day when I'm bulking because it feels mch easier to down 4k+ that way.

[Mrpb]

I'm somewhat scientifically illiterate but would eating every 2.5/3 hours (protein feedings) negatively affect MPS?

Probably not. There's no good evidence that human beings need a certain amount of 'downtime'.

I like to eat 4-6 times a day when I'm bulking because it feels mch easier to down 4k+ that way.

That's fine.

In one study people had only one hour between two protein servings post workout. It had no negative effect on muscle building.

[Goshtin]

Probably not. There's no good evidence that human beings need a certain amount of 'downtime'.


That's fine.

In one study people had only one hour between two protein servings post workout. It had no negative effect on muscle building.

That's a relief. I'd be a bit disappointed if I HAD to wait a certain amount of time between protein feedings. I'd rather go with 1.5/2.5 depending on feel than have a set number (with the intention to still maximize MPS). However, do we know if say waiting X amount of time is BETTER than waiting Y for maximizing MPS? And if there is such a concept do we know how much of a difference (in an already small difference) will it have on MPS?

[Mrpb]

That's a relief. I'd be a bit disappointed if I HAD to wait a certain amount of time between protein feedings. I'd rather go with 1.5/2.5 depending on feel than have a set number (with the intention to still maximize MPS). However, do we know if say waiting X amount of time is BETTER than waiting Y for maximizing MPS? And if there is such a concept do we know how much of a difference (in an already small difference) will it have on MPS?

The body seems to be able to use about ~25-30 gram every ~3 hours for muscle protein synthesis. Keep in mind this is a rough estimate.

If you eat more than that you won't stimulate MPS to a greater extent. Instead most of the extra protein will be oxidized and used for urea production.

[EjnarKolinkar]

I'm somewhat scientifically illiterate but would eating every 2.5/3 hours (protein feedings) negatively affect MPS? Have we established a minimum acceptable down time between protein feedings? I like to eat 4-6 times a day when I'm bulking because it feels mch easier to down 4k+ that way.

Well you have to look at context as well as protein timing for MPS. If you are in a deficit and losing weight due to trying to optimize protein meal spacing, you may well cut off you nose to spite your face.

It's OK to find an imperfect balanced approach. Just for example I tend to eat 6x a day, all those meals aren't optimal in terms of protein. At least 3-4 of them are in line with generic perceived optimal protein timing. Some of them are more carb heavy to fit other needs, calories, nutrients, etc. And if things get dicey, I'm going to tend to hit my protein goal, regardless of how optimal the meal timing is. But I try to think of this in terms of a hierarchy of need when things get dodgy. So if there is one meal with 60g protein that 20g would have been "Better" used in a previous meal, so be it.

[SJMXI]

The body seems to be able to use about ~25-30 gram every ~3 hours for muscle protein synthesis. Keep in mind this is a rough estimate.

If you eat more than that you won't stimulate MPS to a greater extent. Instead most of the extra protein will be oxidized and used for urea production.

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, I am a long time lurker and getting to grips with a lot of topics beyond the basics of nutrition.

But does this mean that any extra protein consumed beyond the estimated 25-30 grams to maximally (or effectively) induce MPS is wasted? Do those extra grams of protein still go towards building muscle as they're still being digested/absorbed? I regularly eat more than 80g of protein in one sitting and I'd hate to discover I could have been making noticeably more progress with a few simple changes to my eating habits.

I have the feeling it's a stupid question, but I'd rather look silly than not know the answer. Maybe I should have put this in the "stupid questions thread".

[Mrpb]

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, I am a long time lurker and getting to grips with a lot of topics beyond the basics of nutrition.

But does this mean that any extra protein consumed beyond the estimated 25-30 grams to maximally (or effectively) induce MPS is wasted? Do those extra grams of protein still go towards building muscle as they're still being digested/absorbed? I regularly eat more than 80g of protein in one sitting and I'd hate to discover I could have been making noticeably more progress with a few simple changes to my eating habits.

I have the feeling it's a stupid question, but I'd rather look silly than not know the answer. Maybe I should have put this in the "stupid questions thread".

The protein over ~30-40 gram is still digested and absorbed, it's just not all being used towards muscle protein synthesis.

There may be a benefit to having more protein in the last meal of the day, as it can help to keep muscle protein balance positive for a longer period of time.

[R5GT]

The protein over ~30-40 gram is still digested and absorbed, it's just not all being used towards muscle protein synthesis.

There may be a benefit to having more protein in the last meal of the day, as it can help to keep muscle protein balance for a longer period of time.

What is muscle protein balance?

[Mrpb]

What is muscle protein balance?

The difference between muscle protein synthesis and breakdown. I forgot to type the word positive in that quote.

See video after 2:00 minutes.

[R5GT]

The difference between muscle protein synthesis and breakdown. I forgot to type the word positive in that quote.

See video after 2:00 minutes.

Ah i understand makes sense now

If no more than around 30g can't be used to build muscle, Would more protein than 30g not prevent protein brake down and thus in the long run mean more muscle retention?

[Mrpb]

Ah i understand makes sense now

If no more than around 30g can't be used to build muscle,

That's not exactly what I said but ok.

Would more protein than 30g not prevent protein brake down and thus in the long run mean more muscle retention?

No, pretty much any meal will give the maximum suppression of protein breakdown.

Look at it this way:

If you're going to go ~8-12 hours without food it's likely that a mixed meal with 80 gram protein will outperform a mixed meal with 40 gram protein (for 24h MP balance).

If there's only ~4 hours between meals there will likely not be a significant difference.

[R5GT]

The protein over ~30-40 gram is still digested and absorbed, it's just not all being used towards muscle protein synthesis.

If anything over around 40g won't be used for muscle protein synthesis why would eating 80g before bed be any better than 40g before bed if excess of 40g is oxidized and used for urea production?

[Mrpb]

If anything over around 40g won't be used for muscle protein synthesis

That's not exactly what I said. If you consider what I actually wrote you may understand the difference.

I'm not trying to be pedantic here, the difference is important if you want to get the full picture.

Keep in mind that it's not a black and white switch, we're talking proportionally.

PS. to answer your question, it's because a larger protein feeding can give a more prolonged MPS response. This depends on meal specifics though, like protein source, amount of fat, fiber etc.

[R5GT]

Do we know how often muscle protein brake down is occurring yet? If we are stimulating MPS consuming protein every 4-5 hours throughout the day, when exactly is protein brake down occurring?

My thoughts of this stem from thinking about how carb's and fat's don't stimulate any further increase in mps when taken with protein, but it can't surely be optimal to eat nothing but protein all day and then eat all your carb's and fats in one meal, so while they mat not increase mps carb's/fats might reduce protein breakdown meaning they are still beneficial to consume with the protein its self and in that case maybe it is better to spread them out evenly?

[SuperHippo]

Do we know how often muscle protein brake down is occurring yet? If we are stimulating MPS consuming protein every 4-5 hours throughout the day, when exactly is protein brake down occurring?

My thoughts of this stem from thinking about how carb's and fat's don't stimulate any further increase in mps when taken with protein, but it can't surely be optimal to eat nothing but protein all day and then eat all your carb's and fats in one meal, so while they mat not increase mps carb's/fats might reduce protein breakdown meaning they are still beneficial to consume with the protein its self and in that case maybe it is better to spread them out evenly?

This is what i do lol. Spread protein into 5 meals 4-5 hours apart and have most of my carbs/fats all in one meal before bed

[The0pening]

According to this article

nutritiontacticsDOTCOM/measure-muscle-protein-synthesis

7.11 Energy intake

"It is unclear if eating above maintenance is needed to optimize MPS."

According to this there is currently no evidence to support a surplus being needed to optimize MPS, In that case if if i am in the 14-16% range why should i bulk or cut? I hear people say you need a surplus but if there is no scientific data to support this what is this based on bro science?

Can anybody show studies where a surplus lead to greater gains than maintenance?

[Mrpb]

^ if you can make consistent progress without eating a surplus then that will be the best course of action.

Use a surplus when you need it to make progress.

[Jherewhoisdere]

What is the current educated guess on optimal meal pattern to maximize MPS? Any new studies on the topic?

[Mrpb]

What is the current educated guess on optimal meal pattern to maximize MPS? Any new studies on the topic?

When really trying to push MPS to the max
30-40 gram protein every 3-4 hours would probably do very well. 3 gram leucine or slightly more per meal/shake.

[Jherewhoisdere]

When really trying to push MPS to the max
30-40 gram protein every 3-4 hours would probably do very well. 3 gram leucine or slightly more per meal/shake.

Regardless of body weight? So I guess for heavier individuals, having ~4 meals (4 hours between each meal) that are equal in high quality protein would theoretically more or less maximize MPS?

Edit: I assume this article http://www.nutritiontactics.com/meas...ein-synthesis/ is still up to date? Any other recommended reading on the topic?

[NickelArse]

I have a question on this too. Most studies on MPS are done using whey protein right? So whole foods would likely have a different effect because afaik steak takes a lot longer to digest than WPC and there's a host of other factors that impact absorption and digestion of food.

Does this impact anyone's hypothesis on protein timing and MPS?

[desslok]

I have a question on this too. Most studies on MPS are done using whey protein right? So whole foods would likely have a different effect because afaik steak takes a lot longer to digest than WPC and there's a host of other factors that impact absorption and digestion of food.

Does this impact anyone's hypothesis on protein timing and MPS?

Whey has a pretty consistent Leucine content. Other foods, especially vegetable sources, will have various amounts of Leucine.

[NickelArse]

Whey has a pretty consistent Leucine content. Other foods, especially vegetable sources, will have various amounts of Leucine.

I'm not talking about the amount of leucine, I'm talking about how it is absorbed in a meal.

All MPS studies I'm aware of have used whey as the source of protein, IRL eating a steak and vegetables will obviously result in a different absorption rate of protein than WPC in water and also alter the outcomes of MPS

[SuffolkPunch]

I'm interested in the subject of digestion speed too. If leucine is the trigger, would there ever be a reason to try and slow digestion of protein down (for example pre-bedtime)? It sounds like that would not be desirable.

[SubWooferCooker]

There was a study that used beef and from what i remember the results where not a great deal different to whey regarding mps. I am sure MrPB will know the one.

[Jherewhoisdere]

I'm not talking about the amount of leucine, I'm talking about how it is absorbed in a meal.

All MPS studies I'm aware of have used whey as the source of protein, IRL eating a steak and vegetables will obviously result in a different absorption rate of protein than WPC in water and also alter the outcomes of MPS

There is some discussion about that here http://www.nutritiontactics.com/meas...ein-synthesis/ ; section 7.5.

Summary

Whole-foods can effectively stimulate muscle protein synthesis. Little is known about the muscle protein synthetic response to large mixed meals consisting of whole-food protein, carbohydrate and fat sources.

From what I have understood, basically eat ~4 evenly spaced meals (~4 hours between meals or so) that contain 20-40g (or 0.4g/kg) of high quality protein and that is the best current educated guess on meal pattern that may yield better gains in the long term?

[Mrpb]

Regardless of body weight?

The only study that directly looked at this (Tipton 2016) did not find larger individuals needed more protein.

We'll need more studies about this though.

Say someone in their twenties is 200 pounds lean, I'd still recommend them ~5 meals of ~40 for example to maximise MPS.

So I guess for heavier individuals, having ~4 meals (4 hours between each meal) that are equal in high quality protein would theoretically more or less maximize MPS?

If you're looking for that extra few percents 5 or 6 meals should slightly outperform 4.

Stu Phillips has given his thoughts about this earlier in the thread.

Afaik Jorn's article on NutritionTactics is still up to date.

I have a question on this too. Most studies on MPS are done using whey protein right? So whole foods would likely have a different effect because afaik steak takes a lot longer to digest than WPC and there's a host of other factors that impact absorption and digestion of food.

Does this impact anyone's hypothesis on protein timing and MPS?

Mixed meals, beef, egg, wheat protein for example have also been used.

Slower digesting meals have leucine peak in the blood slower. Therefore it makes sense to have a bit more protein/leucine in them.

Studies have shown that young guys can have a full MPS response with 20 gram protein from whey. If they get 25-30 gram from a mixed meal that will cover for the slower digestion.

Older guys can slightly increase the amount of protein per meal to compensate for anabolic resistance that comes with age.

I'm interested in the subject of digestion speed too. If leucine is the trigger, would there ever be a reason to try and slow digestion of protein down (for example pre-bedtime)? It sounds like that would not be desirable.

Not only before bed time, it could always be advantageous to slow down protein absorption as it can increase the area under the curve of MPS. You just have to make sure there's enough leucine in it.

Protein blends theoretically make sense, for example 50% whey, 50% casein.

One study showed whey + casein works well post workout: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16937979

[bestellenpreis]

Are carbs/fats important to maximize MPS?

[SuffolkPunch]

Not only before bed time, it could always be advantageous to slow down protein absorption as it can increase the area under the curve of MPS. You just have to make sure there's enough leucine in it.

Protein blends theoretically make sense, for example 50% whey, 50% casein.

One study showed whey + casein works well post workout: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16937979

That's good because in most cases we have wholefoods and mixed meals anyway so it'll work out favourably.

Are carbs/fats important to maximize MPS?

Only insofar as they contain calories. Being in net negative calorie balance can curtail muscle gain - but the threshold is not clear and it's still possible to gain muscle on a small deficit.

I don't think composition of the meals is that important - people gain muscle on both high and low carb diets. If carbs affect the ability to build muscle it's most likely because them can improve performance in the gym = better growth stimulus.

[Mrpb]

To add to the above, times where there may be an advantage to a fast digesting protein source alone, like whey: fasted workouts and in between workouts. Protein blends would still work fine in these situations though.

Are carbs/fats important to maximize MPS?

Eating a minimum of 100 gram carbs per day is probably a good idea to avoid protein breakdown.

There's one study in rodents suggesting that snacking on carbs in between meals (say 2 hours after your meal) could reduce muscle protein breakdown and in that way maximise muscle protein balance. However it should be noted that this idea hasn't been tested in humans (afaik). Also, the effects of reducing MPB are relatively small compared to maximising MPS.