back injury healed need routine

[Oldmanlet]

as the title said I am a 40yr old trying to put on a bit of mass and generally look more aesthetic. im already fairly lean and athletic from pt and yoga, need dem muscles now. all the routines I see call for squats or dl neither of which I can do. ive browsed around the forums a bit but nothing jumped out at me anyone have recommendations? post from my phone so not sure about message format. thanks.

[sargeek1975]

Every back injury is unique, so my first response would be to ask a medical professional.


Having said that, I can only tell you what I do and don't do................I have a slipped, herniated, compressed and fractured disc. Broken completely in half with one have in three separate pieces in my spinal column and the other half sticking out so far that it makes my right leg go numb.

As you said, regular squats and dead lifts are out. Both are pretty dangerous even to people with a completely healthy back, as they can f*ck you up pretty easily if your form isn't perfect and/or you're trying for too much damn weight. I laugh my a*s off anytime I see peeps doing DL's.

There's nothing that should affect any chest, bicep, tricep and shoulder exercises. And if they do (because the exercise calls for you to be standing, like standing dumbbell curls......just sit down on a bench that has a back to it and do them).

You can still do hack squats and the leg press (leg press is much better than squats, you can go deeper with zero pressure on your lower back, if you're doing them right).


The biggest thing for me personally is lifting DB's up to work with them and then putting them back on the rack. Make sure you keep your back straight and use your other arm for support against the rack. I'm sure I look like a fool to others with the way I move them around, but your back will let you know when you're not supporting it enough.

Good luck!

[Whiskeyjack]

As you said, regular squats and dead lifts are out. Both are pretty dangerous even to people with a completely healthy back, as they can f*ck you up pretty easily if your form isn't perfect and/or you're trying for too much damn weight. I laugh my a*s off anytime I see peeps doing DL's.

...

You can still do hack squats and the leg press (leg press is much better than squats, you can go deeper with zero pressure on your lower back, if you're doing them right).

Some of your original advice is OK but how come you laugh if you see people do DLs? If done correctly they are a tremendous builder. Also, regarding leg pressing being better than squatting, I suppose it comes down to what you mean by "much better." There's been a lot of debating on this topic and I do think the issue is one of defining value with/out back injuries.

[Oldmanlet]

Thanks for the replies, I'll give the leg press a shot with leg extensions and curls to start off with. Bench press, military press and and pull downs to work many muscles at once. Might throw in seated calf raises too because the other exercises don't hit them enough. Just looking for a decent starting point going to start off light and work on form and to strengthen up a bit. Will also use a clean diet with bikram yoga a couple days a week for flexibility. Don't really expect to get huge, just in good solid shape (aesthetic).

[sargeek1975]

Some of your original advice is OK but how come you laugh if you see people do DLs? If done correctly they are a tremendous builder. Also, regarding leg pressing being better than squatting, I suppose it comes down to what you mean by "much better." There's been a lot of debating on this topic and I do think the issue is one of defining value with/out back injuries.

I laugh at the majority of peeps doing DL's because they are prolly the most dangerous exercise for your lower back.

90% of the people I see doing them aren't wearing a brace of any sort, are using wayyyyy too much weight and have horrible form. Horrible form with heavy weight can sometimes break you past a platuae............and I'm fine with that. Like chest or biceps; but even then you're still taking a chance on 'possibly' tearing something. Prolly won't happen as long as you're not going too overboard with the weight or crappy form.

But to take that chance with the lower back is just foolhardy. Once you get a lower back injury it doesn't go away. On top of that, this is the over 35 section. We're not young bucks. I understand that back injuries can happen at any age..........but the older you get the easier back injuries become.

I take the same stance with squats. I personally never did squats without a smith machine (back when I did them), and never used any outrageous amounts of weight. Done improperly they are just another back injury waiting to happen.

I have always preferred the leg press to squats.





EDIT:

To put this into perspective; I'm sure there were peeps saying that behind the neck pull downs were bad for years before peeps started listening up.

I'm not trying to compare the two exercises or which is worse for the body parts the exercises work, just pointing out that there are exercises everyone did for years that are now almost taboo. I'd personally love to see that happen with traditional squats and dead lifts.

[BankWalker]

There's nothing that should affect any chest, bicep, tricep and shoulder exercises. And if they do (because the exercise calls for you to be standing, like standing dumbbell curls......just sit down on a bench that has a back to it and do them)

Someone with a back injury can easily make matters worse doing bicep work. Standing curls involve a lot of core strength and as you stated... getting DB's in and out of racks can be risky as well. Shoulder work also is a significant risk to back injuries. Whether seated or standing... overhead pressing vertically loads the spine.

OP, be particularly careful not to avoid hamstring work. Quad dominance is a contributing factor to lower back problems.

[pastorgbc]

I laugh at the majority of peeps doing DL's because they are prolly the most dangerous exercise for your lower back.

90% of the people I see doing them aren't wearing a brace of any sort, are using wayyyyy too much weight and have horrible form. Horrible form with heavy weight can sometimes break you past a platuae............and I'm fine with that. Like chest or biceps; but even then you're still taking a chance on 'possibly' tearing something. Prolly won't happen as long as you're not going too overboard with the weight or crappy form.

But to take that chance with the lower back is just foolhardy. Once you get a lower back injury it doesn't go away. On top of that, this is the over 35 section. We're not young bucks. I understand that back injuries can happen at any age..........but the older you get the easier back injuries become.

I take the same stance with squats. I personally never did squats without a smith machine (back when I did them), and never used any outrageous amounts of weight. Done improperly they are just another back injury waiting to happen.

I have always preferred the leg press to squats.





EDIT:

To put this into perspective; I'm sure there were peeps saying that behind the neck pull downs were bad for years before peeps started listening up.

I'm not trying to compare the two exercises or which is worse for the body parts the exercises work, just pointing out that there are exercises everyone did for years that are now almost taboo. I'd personally love to see that happen with traditional squats and dead lifts.

There are several issues with your posts. The first is that you state leg presses are just as good as squats. This is not true. It is your preference because you are apprehensive about squats, but the statement is far from the truth.

Secondly you state that there should be some fear of squats because this is an over the 35 forum. Again, this is far from the truth. Squatting and deadlifting when done correctly are great fro the back and legs. The more weight you do with correct form, the better. I just finished a six week session of squatting 6 times a week and the amount of flexibility and control this has given me cannot be understated. I'm 54.

There is no need to wear a brace when working out. Certainly if you are squatting or deadlifting huge weights then there is a role for wraps and belts.

You should not be laughing at anyone you see in the gym, either out loud or privately. We all want respect and most of us are not in a position to judge, especially if we are not asked. There is always someone in the gym who is bigger, badder, and stronger than you. How would you feel knowing they were laughing at you

Ray

[sargeek1975]

There are several issues with your posts. The first is that you state leg presses are just as good as squats. This is not true. It is your preference because you are apprehensive about squats, but the statement is far from the truth.

So let's get some facts straight before we dive into this:

Squats involve the back and balance whereas the leg press just isolates; you guessed it.....your legs. When weight training was first started/invented, the leg press didn't exist. Pretty much the only way to develop your quads was to squat. Then someone decided to lay on their back and use a barbell to press up with their legs and viola!

This isn't 1923, it's 2013.

If you're a power lifter? Squat. If you want to squat? Squat. But this old school mentality of 'be a man and squat' is just foolish.

Some would even argue that with squats BECAUSE you are using balance/stabilizers, lifting your entire upper body in addition to the weight itself.......that you are using more energy to do the work, which means less work performed.

I have always been apprehensive about squats because it's a dangerous exercise when done incorrectly; I knew that at age 13, seemed like common sense to me.

Secondly you state that there should be some fear of squats because this is an over the 35 forum. Again, this is far from the truth. Squatting and deadlifting when done correctly are great fro the back and legs. The more weight you do with correct form, the better. I just finished a six week session of squatting 6 times a week and the amount of flexibility and control this has given me cannot be understated. I'm 54.

I said that the older you get the more prone to (back) injuries you are; can't see how that's even debatable, plenty of years of science to back that claim up.

I also was referring to squats and DL's without proper form. And seeing as how the majority I see doing these exercises are doing them either incorrectly and/or with too much weight, I can't see where there's a debate here either.

There is no need to wear a brace when working out. Certainly if you are squatting or deadlifting huge weights then there is a role for wraps and belts.

I can't see how you would have inferred my statement any other way.

Yet let's not forget those with previous and/or pre-existing injuries who may need the extra support.

You should not be laughing at anyone you see in the gym, either out loud or privately. We all want respect and most of us are not in a position to judge, especially if we are not asked. There is always someone in the gym who is bigger, badder, and stronger than you. How would you feel knowing they were laughing at you

Ray

When I see a group of 3-5 twenty-somethings dropping the bar after DL'ing some absurd weight that makes MY back wince as they are straining to get it up? Yes, I laugh to myself. I laugh to myself because I'm not in there for anyone else's respect, you obviously are as you just stated and it's obvious that so are the 3-5 kids in there throwing around weight that they have no business trying to move and will eventually lead to an injury.

I'm in the gym for me, myself and I. No one else. I can give two sh*ts what anyone else thinks of me.






Having said ALL of that, I feel the need to state that anything I post here is my opinion. Sure, I can back up anything I post with references from certified doctors, physicians and trainers...............but who cares? In the end it's all an opinion and no one can be a better judge of what someone else can or should do with their own body than the person themselves.

My statement/opinion of squats and DL's is that when they are done improperly and/or with wayyyy too much weight, they are a serious injury waiting to happen. Again, there should be zero discussion on that topic.



I'll end with this from the NSCA:

"Some reports of high injury rate may be based on biased samples. Others have attributed injuries to weight training, including the squat, which could have been caused by other factors. Injuries attributed to the squat may result not from the exercise itself, but from improper technique, pre-existing structural abnormalities, other physical activities, fatigue or excessive training."

[Corbi]

As you said, regular squats and dead lifts are out. Both are pretty dangerous even to people with a completely healthy back, as they can f*ck you up pretty easily if your form isn't perfect and/or you're trying for too much damn weight. I laugh my a*s off anytime I see peeps doing DL's.

You can still do hack squats and the leg press (leg press is much better than squats, you can go deeper with zero pressure on your lower back, if you're doing them right).

Congrats!!! You win the "$hittiest advice of the week" prize.

[sargeek1975]

Congrats!!! You win the "$hittiest advice of the week" prize.

Need my address so you can mail it to me? Or does BB.com take care of that?

[Juggertha]

I'm recovering from a long term back injury as well, and know that it's a bit 'o walking on egg shells when you venture back into the gym after it.

I stayed away from anything that even hinted at aggravating my lower back. There are signs - don't ignore them.

That being said, don't ignore that region either. Instead of Deads, consider roman chair work. And don't forget 'dem abs! Gotta have that core balance... even if you're not going for those massive core lifts. I do a push/pull/leg split.

Pull
-wide grip assisted pull up
-seated rows
-wide grip rear delt rows
-bis
-forearm
-spinal errectors

Push
-incline dumbbell presses
-decline hammer presses
-pec deck flys
-tris
-abs

Legs
-hack squat
-sissy leg press
-extensions
-stiff legged cable "deads"
-ham curls
-calves

[dnb]

Okay, I missed something somewhere. What's wrong with lat pulls behind the neck?

[pastorgbc]

So let's get some facts straight before we dive into this:

Squats involve the back and balance whereas the leg press just isolates; you guessed it.....your legs. When weight training was first started/invented, the leg press didn't exist. Pretty much the only way to develop your quads was to squat. Then someone decided to lay on their back and use a barbell to press up with their legs and viola!

This isn't 1923, it's 2013.

If you're a power lifter? Squat. If you want to squat? Squat. But this old school mentality of 'be a man and squat' is just foolish.

Some would even argue that with squats BECAUSE you are using balance/stabilizers, lifting your entire upper body in addition to the weight itself.......that you are using more energy to do the work, which means less work performed.

I have always been apprehensive about squats because it's a dangerous exercise when done incorrectly; I knew that at age 13, seemed like common sense to me.





I said that the older you get the more prone to (back) injuries you are; can't see how that's even debatable, plenty of years of science to back that claim up.

I also was referring to squats and DL's without proper form. And seeing as how the majority I see doing these exercises are doing them either incorrectly and/or with too much weight, I can't see where there's a debate here either.





I can't see how you would have inferred my statement any other way.

Yet let's not forget those with previous and/or pre-existing injuries who may need the extra support.






When I see a group of 3-5 twenty-somethings dropping the bar after DL'ing some absurd weight that makes MY back wince as they are straining to get it up? Yes, I laugh to myself. I laugh to myself because I'm not in there for anyone else's respect, you obviously are as you just stated and it's obvious that so are the 3-5 kids in there throwing around weight that they have no business trying to move and will eventually lead to an injury.

I'm in the gym for me, myself and I. No one else. I can give two sh*ts what anyone else thinks of me.






Having said ALL of that, I feel the need to state that anything I post here is my opinion. Sure, I can back up anything I post with references from certified doctors, physicians and trainers...............but who cares? In the end it's all an opinion and no one can be a better judge of what someone else can or should do with their own body than the person themselves.

My statement/opinion of squats and DL's is that when they are done improperly and/or with wayyyy too much weight, they are a serious injury waiting to happen. Again, there should be zero discussion on that topic.



I'll end with this from the NSCA:

"Some reports of high injury rate may be based on biased samples. Others have attributed injuries to weight training, including the squat, which could have been caused by other factors. Injuries attributed to the squat may result not from the exercise itself, but from improper technique, pre-existing structural abnormalities, other physical activities, fatigue or excessive training."

Those who can, do. Those who can't, do something else. Those who won't are jealous of those who do.

Ray

[sargeek1975]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, do something else. Those who won't are jealous of those who do.

Ray

Amazingly thought out response, full of knowledge. I bow to your wisdom.

Okay, I missed something somewhere. What's wrong with lat pulls behind the neck?

Behind neck

This variation of the lat pulldown, in which the bar is pulled behind the neck, may be dangerous and less effective. Behind the neck lat pulldowns offer no biomechanical advantages. It can cause compression of the cervical spine disks, and disk damage if contact is made by striking the bar to the neck. In addition, it can cause rotator cuff injuries.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru26.htm

http://staff.washington.edu/griffin/behind_neck.txt

[dnb]

/\ interesting. I have always had very pliable shoulders and done both behind and forward lat pulls.

[pastorgbc]

Amazingly thought out response, full of knowledge. I bow to your wisdom.







Behind neck

This variation of the lat pulldown, in which the bar is pulled behind the neck, may be dangerous and less effective. Behind the neck lat pulldowns offer no biomechanical advantages. It can cause compression of the cervical spine disks, and disk damage if contact is made by striking the bar to the neck. In addition, it can cause rotator cuff injuries.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru26.htm

http://staff.washington.edu/griffin/behind_neck.txt

I would suggest you do a little research on open chain and closed chain exercise movements. If you were to do so, you would find that leg presses are much more dangerous to the knees than squatting and deadlifting. The same would hold true for hamstring curls and leg extensions.

Additionally, you should also do some research so that you can better understand the activation of stabilizer and core muscles. Once they become useful to a movemrent because they become routinely activated, the body becomes more efficient at doing work. Your statement was something you made up and does not make any sense.

When I am in the gym I mind my own business and do not pay attention to what anyone else is doing. I try to respect everyone else who is there. It sounds to me you are paying much too much attention to what other people are doing.

To the OP, I would follow the add age that if it hurts don't do it. There are plenty of exercises you can do to meet your goals. Since you are into yoga, you should have fine balance and core development. That should help support your back. One thing I would recommend is to do old school ab wheelies or barbell rolouts. These will further strengthen your core and also give strength and flexibility to your lower back. Good luck.

Ray

[sargeek1975]

I would suggest you do a little research on open chain and closed chain exercise movements. If you were to do so, you would find that leg presses are much more dangerous to the knees than squatting and deadlifting. The same would hold true for hamstring curls and leg extensions.

I find that absurd. If the leg press was more dangerous for knees than squats, then why would physical therapists assign the leg press as an exercise to do to build up leg muscles vice squats after knee surgery?

Additionally, you should also do some research so that you can better understand the activation of stabilizer and core muscles. Once they become useful to a movemrent because they become routinely activated, the body becomes more efficient at doing work. Your statement was something you made up and does not make any sense.

Talking strictly about core exercises, never seen traditional squats as one of the exercises to do. Sure, a hack squat variation against a wall or ball against a wall........yup. That's in most of them. But I would argue that a hack squat is much is easier on the lower back and doing one without a barbell/weight is even easier and doing only what it is intended to do: strengthen your core. Never seen a barbell hack squat with weight called for in a core strengthening program.

When I am in the gym I mind my own business and do not pay attention to what anyone else is doing. I try to respect everyone else who is there. It sounds to me you are paying much too much attention to what other people are doing.

I'm a people watcher naturally. And if I see some dude in the gym doing something in the gym I've never seen I will prolly ask him about it. I'm no expert. I'm there to learn just as much as I'm there to work out. Plenty of knowledge to be had out there on the floor..................

To the OP, I would follow the add age that if it hurts don't do it. There are plenty of exercises you can do to meet your goals. Since you are into yoga, you should have fine balance and core development. That should help support your back. One thing I would recommend is to do old school ab wheelies or barbell rolouts. These will further strengthen your core and also give strength and flexibility to your lower back. Good luck.

Ray

Ray, the problem with a pre-existing back injury is that if it hurts, it may already be too late.

[pastorgbc]

It is not absurd; I will grant you that open chain movements can have benefit for rehabbing a joint injury. However, because of the shearing forces on the joint, when a weight that would be substantial enough to build muscle is applied, the shearing forces can cause injury. Closed chain kinetic movements are more athletic anc compound in nature. They allow the joints to move through their natural movement patterns

Per your second comment, squats, deadlifts, chins, dips, etc. will work the core in a far superior fashion to a bosu ball ever dreamt it could.

Your last point is a good one and I did mean my advice in the context of normal routine. If there was a strong liklihood that I was going to be injured doing something, I would not do it. For instance I tore my triceps doing overhead DB extensions with a 130 pound db. That happened two years ago. I will not do that exercise with any weight. There are others to do.

Ray

[sargeek1975]

I lay down on a flat bench to do those, I find it helps stretch everything out and I add a quick pump off my chest. I just never wanted to chance something that heavy behind my head/back while sitting up. But that's exactly it, we learn from personal stuff or from stuff that has happened to others.

With proper form squats are fine...............I've got zero problem with them when done correctly. Same goes for DL's. The problem is that I rarely see people doing them properly. And proper form can mean many different things; how much weight is being used? Spotters if needed?

I see DL's being the new flat BB chest: how much can you do equates to how awesome you think you are (not you personally, I'm generalizing the typical gym meat head). Same with squats.

That mentality breeds injury. It means that 'dude' has to beat 'bro' at 'X' weight while squatting or dead lifting. I see it all the damn time. My gym is currently a teeny tiny room onboard a US Navy Cruiser doing a deployment...............and I see these kids doing what I'm talking about every night.



I have never been a huge proponent of compound exercises, I personally prefer targeting what you want to work on. Stabilizers can be worked numerous different ways without compound maneuvers. But I have nothing against those that prefer them. Again, I'm only referring to those who are doing these exercises without proper form.

Core exercises don't need any type of weight to be effective if done correctly, that's why I disagree with a traditional squat being used for any type of 'core' work out.



We're all going to have differing opinions based on personal experience and knowledge. That's what makes a forum like this so amazing. We can get views from every angle and make a decision for ourselves.

[induced_drag]

Congrats!!! You win the "$hittiest advice of the week" prize.

My thoughts exactly!!!


Wow....what a bunch of crap!


You have been gone for a while, and it does not look like you learned much while you were away....

[Whiskeyjack]

I lay down on a flat bench to do those, I find it helps stretch everything out and I add a quick pump off my chest. I just never wanted to chance something that heavy behind my head/back while sitting up. But that's exactly it, we learn from personal stuff or from stuff that has happened to others.

With proper form squats are fine...............I've got zero problem with them when done correctly. Same goes for DL's. The problem is that I rarely see people doing them properly. And proper form can mean many different things; how much weight is being used? Spotters if needed?

I see DL's being the new flat BB chest: how much can you do equates to how awesome you think you are (not you personally, I'm generalizing the typical gym meat head). Same with squats.

That mentality breeds injury. It means that 'dude' has to beat 'bro' at 'X' weight while squatting or dead lifting. I see it all the damn time. My gym is currently a teeny tiny room onboard a US Navy Cruiser doing a deployment...............and I see these kids doing what I'm talking about every night.



I have never been a huge proponent of compound exercises, I personally prefer targeting what you want to work on. Stabilizers can be worked numerous different ways without compound maneuvers. But I have nothing against those that prefer them. Again, I'm only referring to those who are doing these exercises without proper form.

Core exercises don't need any type of weight to be effective if done correctly, that's why I disagree with a traditional squat being used for any type of 'core' work out.

We're all going to have differing opinions based on personal experience and knowledge. That's what makes a forum like this so amazing. We can get views from every angle and make a decision for ourselves.

Sargeek, it seems to me that there are 2 issues going on here. You have yourself suffered various injuries - including your back - as I have, and have chosen to absent yourself from those exercises that aggravate them. Well and good. But then you advocate these personal avoidance strategies in advice to others.

I think you mean well, and I agree that it's important to ensure that compound exercises be performed properly. But there is no real value for healthy individuals to avoid these exercises and no value in your asserting that they are not worth doing because you have had to abandon them. Just a thought.

[sargeek1975]

Sargeek, it seems to me that there are 2 issues going on here. You have yourself suffered various injuries - including your back - as I have, and have chosen to absent yourself from those exercises that aggravate them. Well and good. But then you advocate these personal avoidance strategies in advice to others.

I think you mean well, and I agree that it's important to ensure that compound exercises be performed properly. But there is no real value for healthy individuals to avoid these exercises and no value in your asserting that they are not worth doing because you have had to abandon them. Just a thought.

I'll try and explain this another way.

If I said I didn't use a BB for biceps, would everyone say that I'm missing out on a basic bicep exercise that should be at the core of every bicep routine? I doubt it.

I personally don't do any BB curls as the angle it puts on my wrists is unbearable. And I would say that my biceps are none the worse for it. Tons of other exercises that can and are done, preacher bar (close and wide), DB's and cable work.

If I forced myself to do BB curls, I would injure myself. Not due to bad form or too much weight, but due to the way my wrists are........the angle is all eff'd up for me.

Do I care that I can't do BB curls? Nope, not in the least.




Now, due to this thread I've researched squats more than I ever wanted to, and injuries blamed on squats can come about due to multiple different reasons. Bad form, too much weight, pre-existing injury (that the lifter may not even know he/she has) and just how a particular persons back is.

There are tons of safer alternatives to traditional squats, no denying that.

So for me to say that someone who has heeled from a previous back injury to avoid traditional squats shouldn't be hit with so much flak.

If you wanna rag on me as I feel that squats done incorrectly are dangerous? Have at it. Par for the course in this forum. But I still don't see how anyone can disagree that squats are dangerous when performed incorrectly..............unless others are living in a magical world where injuries don't exist.

But what do I know?

[pastorgbc]

The issue is not your basic premise. The issue is when you state that other exercises are just as good or better than squats and deadlifts. This is not true.

Ray

[sargeek1975]

DB curls are just as good or better than BB curls.


Same same or no? srs question......................