The Shoulder Press Debate

[DerekEt]

If somebody is doing Incline Bench Press,Close Grip Bench Press,Incline Dumbbell Press+DB Upright Rows/Side Laterals 3-4x a week (or any combination of 2-3 PRESSES + Raises); is there any reason to do Military Press?

Your front deltoids are getting slammed as it is, especially with that high of frequency.

Let me know what you all think. My opinion is below.





I feel the OHP is extremely overrated, especially since it primarily just hits the Front Deltoids; an extremely small muscle that is barely visible, is easily susceptible to overtraining with this kind of Frequency, and slammed very hard in all pressing. John Meadows, and Lee Haney(8x Mr.Olympia) use Shoulder Pressing VERY SPARINGLY . Meadows believes that it is unnecessary, can cause Shoulder problems done frequently, and that Incline Bench Press is better anyways . Lee Haney dropped Shoulder Pressing from his routine for a very long time, focusing only on Upright Rows/Lateral+Rear Raises and letting all the Chest Work take care of the pressing. Just some examples, there are many more.

If somebody is only training Shoulders one time a week, then by all means they probably should go ahead and do a Shoulder Press. Not many people nowadays do 1x a week training; everybody is usually on the 2x a week bandwagon, with a few even doing 3x .

[bravo96]

If somebody is doing Incline Bench Press,Close Grip Bench Press,Incline Dumbbell Press+DB Upright Rows/Side Laterals 3-4x a week (or any combination of 2-3 PRESSES + Raises); is there any reason to do Military Press?

Your front deltoids are getting slammed as it is, especially with that high of frequency.

Let me know what you all think. My opinion is below.





I feel the OHP is extremely overrated, especially since it primarily just hits the Front Deltoids; an extremely small muscle that is barely visible, is easily susceptible to overtraining with this kind of Frequency, and slammed very hard in all pressing. John Meadows, and Lee Haney(8x Mr.Olympia) use Shoulder Pressing VERY SPARINGLY . Meadows believes that it is unnecessary, can cause Shoulder problems done frequently, and that Incline Bench Press is better anyways . Lee Haney dropped Shoulder Pressing from his routine for a very long time, focusing only on Upright Rows/Lateral+Rear Raises and letting all the Chest Work take care of the pressing. Just some examples, there are many more.

If somebody is only training Shoulders one time a week, then by all means they probably should go ahead and do a Shoulder Press. Not many people nowadays do 1x a week training; everybody is usually on the 2x a week bandwagon, with a few even doing 3x .

depends IMO i think all newbs should learn and perform this exercise. but as you get more advanced i believe that raises do a better job of building shoulders than overhead press, the only exception might be db press because i believe it places a bit more emphasis on the medial delt that traditional military press.

[DerekEt]

Yeah, this isn't geared toward newbies, they should probably just be focusing on Flat Bench & Shoulder Press . This is really for advanced/high-end intermediate lifters (if that even makes sense...)

Also, Upright Rows and Side Lateral Raises slam the side deltoids far more than a Dumbbell Shoulder Press ever will, so what's the point of bringing that up; regardless of if it hits it "hits them harder" than Barbell Press. I agree, since the vast majority of the Boulder Shoulder you see is actually just the medial deltoid,raises/side deltoid work are better for building the shoulder.

[bravo96]

Yeah, this isn't geared toward newbies, they should probably just be focusing on Flat Bench & Shoulder Press . This is really for advanced/high-end intermediate lifters (if that even makes sense...)

Also, Upright Rows and Side Lateral Raises slam the side deltoids far more than a Dumbbell Shoulder Press ever will, so what's the point of bringing that up; regardless of if it hits it "hits them harder" than Barbell Press. I agree, since the vast majority of the Boulder Shoulder you see is actually just the medial deltoid,raises/side deltoid work are better for building the shoulder.

i only brang it because it was relevant to what we are discussing, why wouldnt i? but yes as far as which has more impact on shoulder size i believe raises are upright rows are better than presses.

[DerekEt]

So do you also feel like there is no reason to add Shoulder Pressing in the program them if you are on a high frequency program performing lots of other kinds of pressing?

[bravo96]

So do you also feel like there is no reason to add Shoulder Pressing in the program them if you are on a high frequency program performing lots of other kinds of pressing?

yerp if your already performing bench and incline in the same workout then you front delts have already had enough stimulation IMO.

[xStevenx]

IMO the delts get enough stimulation to grow during chest exercises.

All I do for delts are laterals or wide grip upright rows

[DerekEt]

IMO the delts get enough stimulation to grow during chest exercises.

All I do for delts are laterals or wide grip upright rows

Exactly my thoughts, and what I do. Also, it's always nice to see a brother in Christ.

[mtownballer20]

yerp if your already performing bench and incline in the same workout then you front delts have already had enough stimulation IMO.

IMO the delts get enough stimulation to grow during chest exercises.

All I do for delts are laterals or wide grip upright rows

Interesting....got a question -- not trying to steal thread .

I'm doing push/pull/leg split 2x week. I usually do 1st push (chest,tri, shoulder) day flat bb bench, incline bb bencsh, shoulder bb bench, etc. -- 2nd push day shoulder bb bench, incline bb bench, flat bb bench, etc. Would it be better for overall shoulder growth me to do upright rows (as explained above) instead of shoulder press, even though I do traps the next day?

[DerekEt]

Interesting....got a question -- not trying to steal thread .

I'm doing push/pull/leg split 2x week. I usually do 1st push (chest,tri, shoulder) day flat bb bench, incline bb bencsh, shoulder bb bench, etc. -- 2nd push day shoulder bb bench, incline bb bench, flat bb bench, etc. Would it be better for overall shoulder growth me to do upright rows (as explained above) instead of shoulder press, even though I do traps the next day?

Upright Rows are literally the best Compound Shoulder Exercise, and let me explain WHY before I get flamed. When people are going for "Boulder Shoulders" in BODYBUILDING, they are chasing after the gigantic Side Deltoid muscle(s). The Front Deltoid, as spoken about before is insanely small. If you have taken an Anatomy class, and opened up a Cadaver, it is hilarious how small it is for how much work people put into it; not to mention it's really just right next to the Pectoral muscle rather than being on the "Shoulder Region" that most people refer to when they think of shoulders. With that being said, if you are a bodybuilder, your main emphasis should be on getting blown up Side Deltoids/Rear Deltoids. Side Deltoids put on the huge amount of mass on your Shoulder; and Upright Rows(In MY OPINION- DUMBBELLS are safer and MORE effective than the bar because you significantly decrease the chance of Shoulder impingement) are the go to compound exercise coupled with Lateral Raises to attain this.

If you are doing Push/Pull/Legs, and are looking to bodybuild; I would say your best bet is to Focus on Chest movements rather than Vertical Pressing first. They will destroy your Front Deltoids as it is, and you will not be held back on your Chest session by fatigued shoulders. Trust me, your Front Deltoids will be wrecked between Flat Bench,Incline Bench,and everything else you do for Shoulders *AFTERWARDS*. They are by far, one of the most Overtrained muscles - if not,THE most overtrained.

Focus on Upright Rows/Side Laterals [only if you CAN do UR ROWS - once again, dumbbells make it much safer] for the meat and potatoes of your Shoulder session.

NARROW GRIP = more trap emphasis; WIDE = Side deltoid emphasis. If you go wide, you will barely even feel it in your trap, if you do whatsoever. Try it with dumbbells and you will most likely see exactly what I am talking about.


Hope this helps

[mtownballer20]

Upright Rows are literally the best Compound Shoulder Exercise, and let me explain WHY before I get flamed. When people are going for "Boulder Shoulders" in BODYBUILDING, they are chasing after the gigantic Side Deltoid muscle(s). The Front Deltoid, as spoken about before is insanely small. If you have taken an Anatomy class, and opened up a Cadaver, it is hilarious how small it is for how much work people put into it; not to mention it's really just right next to the Pectoral muscle rather than being on the "Shoulder Region" that most people refer to when they think of shoulders. With that being said, if you are a bodybuilder, your main emphasis should be on getting blown up Side Deltoids/Rear Deltoids. Side Deltoids put on the huge amount of mass on your Shoulder; and Upright Rows(In MY OPINION- DUMBBELLS are safer and MORE effective than the bar because you significantly decrease the chance of Shoulder impingement) are the go to compound exercise coupled with Lateral Raises to attain this.

If you are doing Push/Pull/Legs, and are looking to bodybuild; I would say your best bet is to Focus on Chest movements rather than Vertical Pressing first. They will destroy your Front Deltoids as it is, and you will not be held back on your Chest session by fatigued shoulders. Trust me, your Front Deltoids will be wrecked between Flat Bench,Incline Bench,and everything else you do for Shoulders *AFTERWARDS*. They are by far, one of the most Overtrained muscles - if not,THE most overtrained.

Focus on Upright Rows/Side Laterals [only if you CAN do UR ROWS - once again, dumbbells make it much safer] for the meat and potatoes of your Shoulder session.

NARROW GRIP = more trap emphasis; WIDE = Side deltoid emphasis. If you go wide, you will barely even feel it in your trap, if you do whatsoever. Try it with dumbbells and you will most likely see exactly what I am talking about.


Hope this helps

Thanks a lot man! Really informative! Might have to adjust my workouts then to benefit me most. Reps for you on recharge.

[DerekEt]

Thanks a lot man! Really informative! Might have to adjust my workouts then to benefit me most. Reps for you on recharge.

=p

thanks so much, I appreciate reputation points as I'm new to the website

[Arabianmuscles]

Is shoulders are a weakpoint, how would you go about training them OP?

[oldballs]

didn't read everything ITT. but I want to have a really strong OHP, so I do OHP. if you are just bodybuilding, then do whatever you want.

[mtownballer20]

didn't read everything ITT. but I want to have a really strong OHP, so I do OHP. if you are just bodybuilding, then do whatever you want.

what can u ohp?

[oldballs]

what can u ohp?

why?

[mtownballer20]

why?

Just wanted to see your definition of a really strong one was and how much you can throw up. Wasn't trying to scare you off

[oldballs]

Just wanted to see your definition of a really strong one was

a LOT more then when I first started!

and how much you can throw up.

[mtownballer20]

a LOT more then when I first started!

[Rasputin4]

I think you may be on to something. There have been stretches where I did no OHP but benched and my OHP came out stronger than it was before (still in proportion). I'd take it a step further and say not only do people tend to overtrain front delts, they also tend to overtain chest and undertrain back and legs. IMO squats, deadlifts, and rowing movements deserve more volume than bench and OHP.

[k9pit]

If somebody is doing Incline Bench Press,Close Grip Bench Press,Incline Dumbbell Press+DB Upright Rows/Side Laterals 3-4x a week (or any combination of 2-3 PRESSES + Raises); is there any reason to do Military Press?

Your front deltoids are getting slammed as it is, especially with that high of frequency.

Let me know what you all think. My opinion is below.

I feel the OHP is extremely overrated, especially since it primarily just hits the Front Deltoids;

.................

Not many people nowadays do 1x a week training; everybody is usually on the 2x a week bandwagon, with a few even doing 3x .

True, if you are going to hit your front delts that much with all of those moves in a weeks time you may just plateau. My opinion is you have to know what works best for your body, meaning the best stimulus (exercise choices) and frequency that allows for muscular growth and strength gains. Some of your body parts may be stubborn to grow, others may grow pretty easy when you find the right training frequency and methods for them. I train some body parts once a week, others more than once.

I do maybe 3 press variations within a weeks time (BB seated OHP, Incline DB or BB, Flat or Decline). I do front raises as well. So my front delts get hit 2 days a week (chest - shoulders). I don't see why someone would do Incline DB and Incline BB, but that's per your discretion.

Personally, overtime I've noticed that the overhead press is a good gauge for my progress in general, especially in the strength department. When my OHP shoots up, you best believe all of my other core lifts are going up. I can't think of a time in which my OHP went up and all of my bench press variations did not go out in parallel, as well as back rows.

Not only that, but again personally when I don't include OHP in my routine as a staple move, and concentrate on incline/flat/decline pressing (and dips), my shoulders usually are not in the best of health over time.

My shoulders overall look a look a lot better when I include them in my routine over time. Not knocking you, it's just a different perspective.

[Arabianmuscles]

True, if you are going to hit your front delts that much with all of those moves in a weeks time you may just plateau. My opinion is you have to know what works best for your body, meaning the best stimulus (exercise choices) and frequency that allows for muscular growth and strength gains. Some of your body parts may be stubborn to grow, others may grow pretty easy when you find the right training frequency and methods for them. I train some body parts once a week, others more than once.

I do maybe 3 press variations within a weeks time (BB seated OHP, Incline DB or BB, Flat or Decline). I do front raises as well. So my front delts get hit 2 days a week (chest - shoulders). I don't see why someone would do Incline DB and Incline BB, but that's per your discretion.

Personally, overtime I've noticed that the overhead press is a good gauge for my progress in general, especially in the strength department. When my OHP shoots up, you best believe all of my other core lifts are going up. I can't think of a time in which my OHP went up and all of my bench press variations did not go out in parallel, as well as back rows.

Not only that, but again personally when I don't include OHP in my routine as a staple move, and concentrate on incline/flat/decline pressing (and dips), my shoulders usually are not in the best of health over time.

My shoulders overall look a look a lot better when I include them in my routine over time. Not knocking you, it's just a different perspective.

I feel the same way. My shoulders didn't start growing until adding in a main power movement (military press) before my hypertrophy movements.

[-Lucifer]

Just wanted to see your definition of a really strong one was...

I'd say if you can press your body weight once, you are a strong mofo. These days, though, the bench press gets a lot more attention than the press.

[sameaha]

Now i am confused.
I train 4 times a week and do delts and triceps in one day. I start my shoulder workout with seated military press, upright row then DB overhead press. I finish with front cable raise and DB rear fly. Is this too much?
Should I eliminate OH press since I do DB incline in my chest day?

Thank u for the nice thread

[traineeh]

adding upright rows (bb or db??) to my Push routine as we speak

[ZoranM]

No serious bodybuilder in his right mind would leave out overhead pressing.

Except maybe for djauto

[-Lucifer]

Now i am confused.
I train 4 times a week and do delts and triceps in one day. I start my shoulder workout with seated military press, upright row then DB overhead press. I finish with front cable raise and DB rear fly. Is this too much?
Should I eliminate OH press since I do DB incline in my chest day?

Depends on what you are going for. If you are happy with the way your shoulder look after getting rid of the overhead press, stick to that. If your shoulders atrophy, either add more WG upright row volume or just add the overhead press back. Simple enough?

No serious bodybuilder in his right mind would leave out overhead pressing.

Those same people will recommend the deadlift to someone who asks for forearm isolation exercises.

[sameaha]

Depends on what you are going for. If you are happy with the way your shoulder look after getting rid of the overhead press, stick to that. If your shoulders atrophy, either add more WG upright row volume or just add the overhead press back. Simple enough?



n .

Clear now
Thanks

[CookAndrewB]

Truthfully, I've never met anyone that has ruined their shoulders by doing OHP. Bench press? Yes... lots of people have poor form and trash their shoulders doing that. Let me be clear that I'm talking standing, or the very least a seated version with no back support so that you are forced to stabilize your trunk throughout the press. Back supported OH pressing can lend itself to the same shoulder issues that sh!tty bench form does, as you are essentially benching at a higher angle of incline. I've put up 280 in a push press at a body weight of roughly 200lbs (might have been 205) without the slightest hint at wrecking my shoulders. In fact, I would say that standing OHP has saved my shoulders from many years of piss poor bench press form. I would point to the fact that you can only handle weight that you can stabilize as the key factor to why these are actually a healthy exercise for your shoulders. You get stronger as your whole body adapts to the need to stabilize that complex joint (rotator cuff, if you will). The ability to stabilize the shoulder is a determining factor in how much force you can apply to it... much in the same way that stabilizing the spine determines how much you can squat.

While I can appreciate that bodybuilding cares little for healthy movement and proper motor patterns (certainly there is no reward for it in a contest sense) I would think that some consideration would be made to general health in that it extends your competition life and keeps you off of the operating table. Plus healthy shoulders means a better variety of exercises as you aren't limited from this ROM or that ROM. In that way, I would say this should be a regular part of your training plan, even if it isn't specifically aimed at developing your "boulder shoulders."

[clorox_me]

I always include OHP in my program.

I also have started to include 1 1/2 rep side raises which i love. Basically perform one rep, lower a quarter or half and raise again. A lot like ski squats, but you get a big burn in your side delts.

I never include upright rows in my program. I have heard enough horror stories about it causing impingement that it's just not worth it for me. The reward from this movement isn't significant enough to get me to do them.

I also balance out vertical pulling exercises (pulldowns/pullups) with my OHPing.