Revised Stance on the Optimum pre, during and post WO AA/PRO/CHO regimen

[HalleluYAH]

All, I have concluded that the following presents the "ideal" pre, during and post weight training AA/CHO/PRO intake regimen:

90 min pre - 1 cup oats, 1 chicken breast
45 min pre - 30g whey isolate/casein blend
immediately pre - 10g BCAA (or 5g leucine), 6g EAAs, 35g sucrose or dex
during - 15g dextrose, 10g BCAAs (or 5g leucine)
immediately post - 10g BCAA (or 5g leucine), 35g sucrose
45 min post - 40g whey isolate/casien blend, 1 cup oats, 1 large apple
90 min post - 1 cup oats, 1 chicken breast
pre bed - 30g casein/1/2 cup cottage cheese

Note: The above scenario if for weight training only, and is assuming money is certainly NOT an option.

Thanks goes out to pu12, cxm, bane, deserusan, androgenic and alan aragon for providing insightful information which ultimately led to my current stance.

Thoughts please? Any wrinkles?

[TexAss]

Interesting, have you started this regimen?

[391rippy]

seems good, but what about fats in the 90 min pre and 90 min pro meal?

[391rippy]

also, could you explain what makes this optimal?

[Blk98Bird]

Wouldn't there be some variance based on body weight rather than a fixed amount of each nutrient?

Right now I've been using the protocol alan aragon has been pushing, but I'd be interested to hear more.

[naturalguy]

Ok, you asked for thoughts. It looks fine. Personally I think you spend way to much time overanalyzing this stuff.

[HalleluYAH]

It looks fine.

'nuff said^^^

Personally I think you spend way to much time overanalyzing this stuff.

Why, should I be paying urfitcoach to do the thinking for me.

[HalleluYAH]

Interesting, have you started this regimen?

If I could afford the casein right now, I would. I am doing on the "budget" version of the proposed regimen. Although I was promoted at work starting this week, which means more money for bills, tithing and a little extra for supps.

[HalleluYAH]

seems good, but what about fats in the 90 min pre and 90 min pro meal?

are you referring to EPA/DHA or saturated fats?

[HalleluYAH]

Wouldn't there be some variance based on body weight rather than a fixed amount of each nutrient?

Right now I've been using the protocol alan aragon has been pushing, but I'd be interested to hear more.

absolutely, this base plan is designed for myself; 6'-0", 187lbs w/10% BF.

Alan is a wonderful resource, and if your plan is working, don't fix it. Keep in mind, the "ideal" plan will truly always be a "work in progress".

[Blk98Bird]

I agree, I'm constantly finding new things that do or do not work for my training style!

[pu12en12g]

All, I have concluded that the following presents the "ideal" pre, during and post weight training AA/CHO/PRO intake regimen:

90 min pre - 1 cup oats, 1 chicken breast
45 min pre - 30g whey isolate/casein blend
immediately pre - 10g BCAA (or 5g leucine), 6g EAAs, 35g sucrose or dex
during - 15g dextrose, 10g BCAAs (or 5g leucine)
immediately post - 10g BCAA (or 5g leucine), 35g sucrose
45 min post - 40g whey isolate/casien blend, 1 cup oats, 1 large apple
90 min post - 1 cup oats, 1 chicken breast
pre bed - 30g casein/1/2 cup cottage cheese

Note: The above scenario if for weight training only, and is assuming money is certainly NOT an option.

Thanks goes out to pu12, cxm, bane, deserusan, androgenic and alan aragon for providing insightful information which ultimately led to my current stance.

Thoughts please? Any wrinkles?

1) Looks good and thanks for the kind words

2) I'm not sure if you would consider it "nutrition", but don't forget about electrolytes / osmolytes. Some additional Potassium / Magnesium can make a big difference pre-workout (if you lift with intensity) or even pre-cardio. As far as sodium, results will vary (so many people whining about bloating lately ).

3) The sucrose may be a bit on the high side depending on your goals (I know that you've struggled with abdominal fatloss a bit lately) but it should certainly work.

[Phosphate bond]

are you referring to EPA/DHA or saturated fats?

Saturated fats are hopefully just fuel because they can cause problems (particularly insulin control if dietary intake and release from adipose builds up) Typically you want polyunsaturated fats in the skeletal muscle cell membranes.

Muscle is not just amino acids/protein. There is a cell wall (phospholipid cell membrane composed of fatty acids) around this contractile protein that is involved with its responsiveness.

[Phosphate bond]

I think the whole BCAA/EAA concept is pretty interesting too.

[pu12en12g]

I think the whole BCAA/EAA concept is pretty interesting too.

Agreed... it's one of those things that you almost have to experience to really understand. I was a sceptic for a long time.

[BringnIt]

I would move the pre-workout chicken breast/oats meal back.

[391rippy]

are you referring to EPA/DHA or saturated fats?

any. personally i like to get around 10-15 grams of fat per meal, and there is only about 4 from the oats in those meals. I was wondering if there was a reason for that

[goonies86]

I tried something similar today. I think it worked out pretty good. The casein made me pretty full preWO. I had zero energy dips during workout and i felt better overall even 2-3 hrs after my workout, as opposed to bcaa+whey+carb, which i normally feel pretty groggy after a real heavy day. this plan works for me and im probably gonna stick with it

thanks hal

[Trans_Isomer]

All, I have concluded that the following presents the "ideal" pre, during and post weight training AA/CHO/PRO intake regimen:

90 min pre - 1 cup oats, 1 chicken breast
45 min pre - 30g whey isolate/casein blend
immediately pre - 10g BCAA (or 5g leucine), 6g EAAs, 35g sucrose or dex
during - 15g dextrose, 10g BCAAs (or 5g leucine)
immediately post - 10g BCAA (or 5g leucine), 35g sucrose
45 min post - 40g whey isolate/casien blend, 1 cup oats, 1 large apple
90 min post - 1 cup oats, 1 chicken breast
pre bed - 30g casein/1/2 cup cottage cheese

Note: The above scenario if for weight training only, and is assuming money is certainly NOT an option.

Thanks goes out to pu12, cxm, bane, deserusan, androgenic and alan aragon for providing insightful information which ultimately led to my current stance.

Thoughts please? Any wrinkles?

The oats and chicken I would move back to atleast 2 hours preworkout. I would even push back the whey protein isolate back to that time.

Your muscles will need additional blood for many nutrients, with a main focus on
-Glucose
-Oxygen
-Creatine

When you have food sitting in your stomach, your body will divert blood flow to the intestines/gut to aid in digestion. This leads to
1) Less blood availability for muscles
2) Less blood availability for brain

1) With less than optimal levels of blood being available for muscles, recovery, strength, ATP generation, will be slowed. You will feel more tired
2) Less blood availability for the brain. Less glucose, O2, will be delivered to the brain. During exercise, your brain is firing many, many neurotransmitter signals to signal muscle contraction. Less than optimal nutrient availability to your brain from less blood flow may delay these signals to the muscles, thus limiting performance.

By working out with a full/semi full stomach, you may experience tiredness, nausea, headaches, weakness. Why is this? Delayed delivery of oxygen, etc, from less than optimal blood flow. Why do we have this less than optimal blood flow to the muscles and brain? Digestion is taking place

There are also hormonal influences at play here, but dont want this to get too lengthy.

I would suggest working out on a empty stomach. Yep, empty. Exception, free form BCAA's, EAA's preworkout, same with creatine, etc. Proteins, whole foods, etc, require the body to divert blood flow from other parts of the body to aid in digestion. You want maximum blood availability to your brain and muscles for your workout.

Remember, there are only 3 energy systems in the body to produce ATP. Glycolysis, the Creatine Phosphate system, and cellular respiration. Lower blood flow, lowered delivery of O2, glucose, and creatine to make ATP, the only source of energy that can drive muscle contraction

[pu12en12g]

The oats and chicken I would move back to atleast 2 hours preworkout. I would even push back the whey protein isolate back to that time.

Disagree.. especially regarding the whey isolate

[Trans_Isomer]

Disagree.. especially regarding the whey isolate

At most, whey isolate 1 hour preworkout I would be comfortable with, with water and NO milk. Please explain why you disagree as well with what I have said.

[pu12en12g]

At most, whey isolate 1 hour preworkout I would be comfortable with, with water and NO milk. Please explain why you disagree as well with what I have said.

There are negatives as you outlined above. The positives outweigh the negatives.

[goonies86]

The oats and chicken I would move back to atleast 2 hours preworkout. I would even push back the whey protein isolate back to that time.

Your muscles will need additional blood for many nutrients, with a main focus on
-Glucose
-Oxygen
-Creatine

When you have food sitting in your stomach, your body will divert blood flow to the intestines/gut to aid in digestion. This leads to
1) Less blood availability for muscles
2) Less blood availability for brain

1) With less than optimal levels of blood being available for muscles, recovery, strength, ATP generation, will be slowed. You will feel more tired
2) Less blood availability for the brain. Less glucose, O2, will be delivered to the brain. During exercise, your brain is firing many, many neurotransmitter signals to signal muscle contraction. Less than optimal nutrient availability to your brain from less blood flow may delay these signals to the muscles, thus limiting performance.

By working out with a full/semi full stomach, you may experience tiredness, nausea, headaches, weakness. Why is this? Delayed delivery of oxygen, etc, from less than optimal blood flow. Why do we have this less than optimal blood flow to the muscles and brain? Digestion is taking place

There are also hormonal influences at play here, but dont want this to get too lengthy.

I would suggest working out on a empty stomach. Yep, empty. Exception, free form BCAA's, EAA's preworkout, same with creatine, etc. Proteins, whole foods, etc, require the body to divert blood flow from other parts of the body to aid in digestion. You want maximum blood availability to your brain and muscles for your workout.

Remember, there are only 3 energy systems in the body to produce ATP. Glycolysis, the Creatine Phosphate system, and cellular respiration. Lower blood flow, lowered delivery of O2, glucose, and creatine to make ATP, the only source of energy that can drive muscle contraction

I didn't feel tiredness, nausea, or headaches, but I did feel less pump than i usually do. Casein preWO was basically the only thing I did differently than before. I waited long enough after the preWO meal and the shakes, I thought to avoid discomfort.

[Dimitar]

There are also hormonal influences at play here, but don't want this to get too lengthy.

I think carbs taken pre/during/post blunt the GH release. Is this one of the things you have in mind?

[Trans_Isomer]

There are negatives as you outlined above. The positives outweigh the negatives.

Im trying to understand what positives you speak of? None of the ones I know outweight the negatives physiologicaly

[pu12en12g]

Im trying to understand what positives you speak of? None of the ones I know outweight the negatives physiologicaly

Here ya go:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=272067

[Trans_Isomer]

I think carbs taken pre/during/post blunt the GH release. Is this one of the things you have in mind?

EXACTLY. But remember, all hormones intertwine one another. Most only think of one hormone in a vacuum type situation. All affect one another.

And GH isnt the only important hormone to consider here when considering high insulin secretion

[DejaBlue55]

Hardcore. That's my input.

[Trans_Isomer]

Here ya go:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=272067

Ok, im not going to read a 51 page thread, so I skimmed the preworkout section of it, but basically I suppose the positives you are talking about in the preworkout realm consist of keeping an anabolic response in the body, the insulin response, by eating carbs and such preworkout? (with a focus on carbs for insulin)

[pu12en12g]

There are also hormonal influences at play here, but don't want this to get too lengthy.

Why not ? Halleluyah loves lengthy discussions.

Ok, im not going to read a 51 page thread

No worries... if you don't have time to read it... I don't have time to repeat it / summarize it (Halleluyah obviously put in some serious time and research into his protocol BTW).