Vanadyl Sulfate... Why is this toxic garbage in our supplements?

[NO HYPE]

doi:10.1016/j.metabol.2005.08.021

Short-term bioaccumulation of vanadium when ingested with a tea decoction in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats

Sodium orthovanadate suspended in a lichee black tea decoction effectively regulates blood glucose levels in rats with insulin-dependent, streptozotocin (STZ)-induced diabetes. The primary advantage of vanadate delivery with the tea decoction over conventional systems that use water suspensions of vanadate is a significant reduction in the toxic side effects of vanadate. It is unknown if the tea alters the bioavailability of vanadate. Male Sprague-Dawley rats were administered an intravenous injection of STZ to induce diabetes. Four days later, the diabetic rats were treated by oral gavage with 40 mg of Na-orthovanadate suspended in double-distilled, deionized water (V/H2O), tea/vanadate (TV) decoction, or were treated with the tea decoction alone. Vanadium concentrations were measured in blood and various tissues at 1 to 24 hours posttreatment using graphite furnace atomic absorption spectrophotometry. With the exception of bone, maximal vanadium concentration in plasma and tissue samples were observed 2 hours after ingestion, but steadily decreased after that. Plasma vanadium levels continued to decrease until 16 hours. In contrast, vanadium steadily accumulated in bone over the 24-hour period. Overall, rats treated with V/H2O contained similar or significantly higher concentrations of vanadium in all tissues compared with TV treatment. The pattern of vanadium accumulation was also similar over time in both treatment groups. Vanadium levels were highest in bone > kidney > liver > pancreas > lung > heart > muscle > brain in both TV- and V/H2O-treated animals. This study demonstrates that the accumulation of vanadium in diabetic rats is reduced when coadministered with a black tea decoction in comparison to administration of vanadium in water. However, this effect is unlikely to be of a magnitude to explain the full capacity of TV to reduce the toxic side effects of vanadate.

[deserusan]

http://forums.musculardevelopment.co...ad.php?t=11651

There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius. I get hammered because I offer safe and effective GDA's like KR-ALA, banaba, etc.

[NO HYPE]

Vanadium Distribution in Rats and DNA Cleavage by Vanadyl Complex: Implication for Vanadium Toxicity and Biological Effects

Vanadium ion is toxic to animals. However, vanadium is also an agent used for chemoprotection against cancers in animals. To understand both the toxic and beneficial effects we studied vanadium distribution in rats. Accumulation of vanadium in the liver nuclei of rats given low doses of compounds in the +4 or +5 oxidation state was greater than in the liver nuclei of rats given high doses of vanadium compounds or the vanadate (+5 oxidation state) compound. Vanadium was incorporated exclusively in the vanadyl (+4 oxidation state) form. We also investigated the reactions of vanadyl ion and found that incubation of DNA with vanadyl ion and hydrogen peroxide $({\rm H}_{2}{\rm O}_{2})$ led to intense DNA cleavage. ESR spin trapping demonstrated that hydroxyl radicals are generated during the reactions of vanadyl ion and ${\rm H}_{2}{\rm O}_{2}$. Thus, we propose that the mechanism for vanadium-dependent toxicity and antineoplastic action is due to DNA cleavage by hydroxyl radicals generated in living systems.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=009...3E2.0.CO%3B2-H

[NO HYPE]

http://forums.musculardevelopment.co...ad.php?t=11651

There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius. I get hammered because I offer safe and effective GDA's like KR-ALA, banaba, etc.

You just like getting hammered.

[NO HYPE]

There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius.

I found it odd that he even bothered to mention the toxicity of picolinate/polynicotinate.... after ingesting 40 mg of vanadyl a day.

[Dr.Dave1]

interesting thread NO HYPE . . . I can honestly say I was unaware of the potential risks of vanadyl sulfate until I started to read the info you supplied. I have not used it yet and I definitely will stay away from it now

[leonidas300]

interesting thread NO HYPE . . . I can honestly say I was unaware of the potential risks of vanadyl sulfate until I started to read the info you supplied. I have not used it yet and I definitely will stay away from it now

Well if you are going to use it, make sure you only give it to obese diabetic rats.

[NO HYPE]

interesting thread NO HYPE . . . I can honestly say I was unaware of the potential risks of vanadyl sulfate until I started to read the info you supplied. I have not used it yet and I definitely will stay away from it now

Thanks for the kind words.... I had no clue about vanadyl, until Friday night.

I never knew it was even an option on bb.com.

[NO HYPE]

Human studies show it can be safely used and effective for certain uses.

Key word being "certain".

[NO HYPE]

Well if you are going to use it, make sure you only give it to obese diabetic rats.

"I want my vanadyl"

[DRP7]

Key word being "certain".

I doubt that vanadyl could help to get rid of adipose tissue. on contrary, if it shares some similarities to insulin than it will rather make people even more fat.

[cgcgraded]

I know alot of people hate on VS, and I don't have any scientific studies or anything to back it but I like VS.
30mg preworkout with a high carb meal, don't stay on it longer then 30days without a good break.

-my experience

[NO HYPE]

I know alot of people hate on VS, and I don't have any scientific studies or anything to back it but I like VS.
30mg preworkout with a high carb meal, don't stay on it longer then 30days without a good break.

-my experience

What does it do for you.... honestly?

[cgcgraded]

What does it do for you.... honestly?

Great Pumps, Fuller Muscle Bellies, Increased Vascularity

[NO HYPE]

Great Pumps, Fuller Muscle Bellies, Increased Vascularity

Those are interesting results despite the study....

I really find it interesting that there are about six NO products on bb.com that contain vanadyl sulfate.... too bad it has been shown to induce pulmonary vasoconstriction, as a result of NO inhibition.



Environ Health Perspect. 2004 Feb;112(2):201-6.

Vanadyl sulfate inhibits NO production via threonine phosphorylation of eNOS.

Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. In the present study we investigated whether NO inhibition was related to phosphorylation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). VOSO4 produced dose-dependent constriction of pulmonary arteries in isolated perfused lungs and pulmonary arterial rings and a right shift of the acetylcholine-dependent vasorelaxation curve. VOSO4 inhibited constitutive as well as A23187-stimulated NO production. Constitutive NO inhibition was accompanied by increased Thr495 (threonine at codon 495) phosphorylation of eNOS, which would inhibit eNOS activity. Thr495 phosphorylation of eNOS and inhibition of NO were partially reversed by pretreatment with calphostin C, a protein kinase C (PKC) inhibitor. There were no changes in Ser1177 (serine at codon 1177) or tyrosine phosphorylation of eNOS. These results indicate that VOSO4 induced acute pulmonary vasoconstriction that was mediated in part by the inhibition of endothelial NO production via PKC-dependent phosphorylation of Thr495 of eNOS. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.

[cxm]

Great Pumps, Fuller Muscle Bellies, Increased Vascularity

There are so many other ingredients that can produce that effect, without the issue of toxicity.
1. l-Arginine ethyl ester
2. Citrulline malate
3. L-Ornithine Ethyl Ester
4. Agmatine Sulfate

Having these alternatives, why VS? Because it's cheaper? not worth the health risks IMO.

[cgcgraded]

There are so many other ingredients that can produce that effect, without the issue of toxicity.
1. l-Arginine ethyl ester
2. Citrulline malate
3. L-Ornithine Ethyl Ester
4. Agmatine Sulfate

Having these alternatives, why VS? Because it's cheaper? not worth the health risks IMO.

Cheaper, more effective, minimal health risks when used appropriately.

Those are interesting results despite the study....

I'll take 1st hand experience over a study any day...............but that's just me.




If you guys don't like VS that's fine, no biggie. But there are alot of long time/respectable members on here that have used it with success.

It seems everyone is quick to jump on the band wagon of the new "hot" supplements but discount long time stables. I mean X-Factor's AA has multiple condemning studies but no one seems to talk about that. Why? Because it comes in a pretty bottle with a attractive label?
Seems odd to me.

[cxm]

Cheaper, more effective, minimal health risks when used appropriately.

I doubt a combo of the above will be less effective than VS.

Health > $$$

But there are alot of long time/respectable members on here that have used it with success

Please name these respectable members, the majority of the old timers are gone.

[ElMariachi]

Most people probably have enough in their diet. I don't see much reason for anyone to take it.

I think the theme of this thread fits that exact question. You and No Hype agree on that. If it is not needed, why do so many companies include potentially large doses of it???? I haven't seen any solid studies that suggest a major benefit for the average gymgoer.

[ElMariachi]

http://forums.musculardevelopment.co...ad.php?t=11651

There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius. I get hammered because I offer safe and effective GDA's like KR-ALA, banaba, etc.

That guy's a nut. There is no need to take that much of a trace mineral. 10mg several times a day, that is crazy. There's all sorts of self-professed "guru's" out there who recommend all sorts of random stuff that seems to work for them but is lacking scientifically.

I would be far more comfortable using cinnamon and R-ALA.

[cgcgraded]

I doubt a combo of the above will be less effective than VS.

Health > $$$

Don't understand what your saying, grammar is hard to understand?????

Please name these respectable members, the majority of the old timers are gone.

I don't care if they are gone or not lol, they still supported VS. Search through the VS threads. Of the top of my head I know pu12 is a big advocate of it, alot of guys are that PERSONALLY have used it in the appropriate doses/cycling methods.

BTW, alot of these studies being posted are not being conducted in the interest of bodybuilders.
If i can recall many studies say humans only need 50g of protein per day. But again, I guess we pick and chose which ones to listen to based on personal beliefs............

[NO HYPE]

..

[NO HYPE]

pu12 is a big advocate of it, alot of guys are that PERSONALLY have used it in the appropriate doses/cycling methods.

That's cool you feel that you get results from vanadyl, but I ask you.... how do you define "appropriate doses/cycling", if there is little to no evidence that establishes an "appropriate" dosage for healthy adults?

I am really interested in hearing any benefits to this stuff (though I doubt there are many).... I'd just rather rely on evidence that is factual vs anecdotal.

[CognitiveNutrition]

[irony]well, you have demonstrated that you are surely the right person to make such judgements. [/irony]

My company and myself have the knowledge and experience to discussion most aspects of health with excellent judgement.

[NO HYPE]

If it is not needed, why do so many companies include potentially large doses of it???? I haven't seen any solid studies that suggest a major benefit for the average gymgoer.

Bump.

[G.W. Hayduke]

Bump.

'Cause sometimes you can FEEL that **** working, son!

Or maybe there's a more nefarious plan in the works...

[GeneGnomeX]

I'll take 1st hand experience over a study any day...............but that's just me.

Then click here and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[GeneGnomeX]

I don't care if they are gone or not lol, they still supported VS. Search through the VS threads. Of the top of my head I know pu12 is a big advocate of it, alot of guys are that PERSONALLY have used it in the appropriate doses/cycling methods.

Lesson: NEVER take the word of anyone without researching yourself. It doesn't matter how much of a "guru" they are or how well known. Many "gurus" give horrible/dangerous advice (see des' example).

BTW, alot of these studies being posted are not being conducted in the interest of bodybuilders.

So please explain why this wouldn't be toxic to bodybuilders. Your naive logic doesn't work here.

If i can recall many studies say humans only need 50g of protein per day. But again, I guess we pick and chose which ones to listen to based on personal beliefs............

Again, illogical argument. If you can't see the difference between protein studies and this, you shouldn't be posting here.

[G.W. Hayduke]

It just occurred to me that if you are one of the people who gets pumped up from vanadium, then you may want to reconsider your diet and exercise habits. You may be getting pumped because you are pre-diabetic.

[ram_6000000]

I think this basically just comes down to common sense. There are other alternatives that offer equal, if not better results, and have a better safety profile. I myself know the side-effects of this supplement are real. The reason I wanted to bring to light this specific ingredient is because of how widely available it is, is toxic even in lower dosages, and is often included in many of the sports supplements we take. The kid behind me in line may not even know he's taking it, all he sees is fancy packaging. If it is no longer included in these formulas, or there is at least a warning on the label, that would not be so bad. Thats my feelings anyway. Thanks to everyone who has replied.