Christians, is homosexuality a choice?

[HaythamKenway]

Define "born gay."

Are you talking about hermaphrodites?

"Born gay" is the same as "Born non-gay" except instead of being a heterosexual, you're a homosexual. It is endemic since birth. It's not a choice to be gay, just as its not a choice to be straight.

[HaythamKenway]

It's not an unwinnable game. You're just defining it that way. The same could be said of any sin. The same could be said of a drug addict - they have an addiction. They're probably gonna relapse eventually, etc....but that still doesn't mean it's an unwinnable game. The bible says explicitly that Christians WILL falter from time to time, but what matters is that you get back up and seek constant improvement and genuinely try changing and living the way you're supposed to.


Secondly, gays don't have to remain virgins - they can have hetero marriages and have sex with their spouse, have kids, etc. That probably doesn't appeal to them very much, but to say they have no choice but to remain virgins is just incorrect.



That's pretty much the logic that SheepOnAcid is using.

And the logic that you are using is that having a gay relationship is somehow as detrimental to health as that of the life of a drug addict, which is a f*cking absurd statement to make and you should be ashamed of posting such a thing because of how demonstrably untrue it is.

The problem isn't that there are people in this world that only enjoy intimate relationships with the same gender, the problem is that people like you are so f*cking obsessed with the sexual exploits of strangers to the point where one actually questions your own mental health. I'm serious, why the f*ck do you care about what consenting adults are intimate with each other? What business is it of yours? Why are you so interested? Would you ask negative and insulting questions to your heterosexual friends about their sex lives? Why do you do the same towards people you don't even know?

Is it because some book written thousands of years ago equates homosexuality to eating shellfish and working on the Sabbath, among other things?

StealthSwimmer, you are the worst poster I've ever seen other than nonAtlas. And I don't mean it in a nasty way. You're probably a nice guy IRL. But your posts are absolutely terrible, and you come across as a very dumb, bigoted, misinformed, and uneducated fool. No offense meant, I'm just stating facts.

[flairon]

And the logic that you are using is that having a gay relationship is somehow as detrimental to health as that of the life of a drug addict, which is a f*cking absurd statement to make and you should be ashamed of posting such a thing because of how demonstrably untrue it is.

The problem isn't that there are people in this world that only enjoy intimate relationships with the same gender, the problem is that people like you are so f*cking obsessed with the sexual exploits of strangers to the point where one actually questions your own mental health. I'm serious, why the f*ck do you care about what consenting adults are intimate with each other? What business is it of yours? Why are you so interested? Would you ask negative and insulting questions to your heterosexual friends about their sex lives? Why do you do the same towards people you don't even know?

Is it because some book written thousands of years ago equates homosexuality to eating shellfish and working on the Sabbath, among other things?

StealthSwimmer, you are the worst poster I've ever seen other than nonAtlas. And I don't mean it in a nasty way. You're probably a nice guy IRL. But your posts are absolutely terrible, and you come across as a very dumb, bigoted, misinformed, and uneducated fool. No offense meant, I'm just stating facts.

how long have you and your boyfriend been dating?

[HaythamKenway]

how long have you and your boyfriend been dating?

We've been married for 38 years. His name is Sebastian. Would you like to meet him?

But on a serious note, someone in my family is gay. I was raised a Christian and believed every word of it. I was probably about 15, or so, and I believed in the whole bible thing, and my family member (a woman) had been with her partner for over 20 years and came out that they were a couple. Our family initially had a hard time with it, but we eventually realized that their love was just as true and wonderful as that of my own parents. Eventually, of course, I actually READ the Bible, and by that, I really took the time to analyze it and read the entire thing, but to my dismay, I realized that it made ZERO f*cking sense. I finally realized that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't believe in it anymore. And this is after long nights asking and pleading with God to send me a sign so that I knew that I was saved, or begging him at night in tears that I wanted to be born again, to be saved, and guess what? Nothing happened.


So eventually I learned more about the Bible than most Christians and upon debating them, realized that they were delusional. And upon examining my own beliefs, realized that my family member was no different than if she were a male, and if her partner were female, or Vice Versa. Their ceremony was incredible. And by the way, they actually believe in God. I don't.

[flairon]

We've been married for 38 years. His name is Sebastian. Would you like to meet him?

But on a serious note, someone in my family is gay. I was raised a Christian and believed every word of it. I was probably about 15, or so, and I believed in the whole bible thing, and my family member (a woman) had been with her partner for over 20 years and came out that they were a couple. Our family initially had a hard time with it, but we eventually realized that their love was just as true and wonderful as that of my own parents. Eventually, of course, I actually READ the Bible, and by that, I really took the time to analyze it and read the entire thing, but to my dismay, I realized that it made ZERO f*cking sense. I finally realized that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't believe in it anymore. And this is after long nights asking and pleading with God to send me a sign so that I knew that I was saved, or begging him at night in tears that I wanted to be born again, to be saved, and guess what? Nothing happened.


So eventually I learned more about the Bible than most Christians and upon debating them, realized that they were delusional. And upon examining my own beliefs, realized that my family member was no different than if she were a male, and if her partner were female, or Vice Versa. Their ceremony was incredible. And by the way, they actually believe in God. I don't.

So after reading a probably large book and what sounds like some serious studying, you cam to the conclusion that the people who believe in the invisible sky man are delusional?

[zmcdole]

It's not an unwinnable game. You're just defining it that way. The same could be said of any sin. The same could be said of a drug addict - they have an addiction. They're probably gonna relapse eventually, etc....but that still doesn't mean it's an unwinnable game. The bible says explicitly that Christians WILL falter from time to time, but what matters is that you get back up and seek constant improvement and genuinely try changing and living the way you're supposed to.


Secondly, gays don't have to remain virgins - they can have hetero marriages and have sex with their spouse, have kids, etc. That probably doesn't appeal to them very much, but to say they have no choice but to remain virgins is just incorrect.



That's pretty much the logic that SheepOnAcid is using.

Put yourself in the shoes of a gay Christian. You know that engaging in acts of homosexuality is wrong based on your beliefs so you choose not to, but then someone says "Dude, don't worry you don't have to be a virgin forever." "You can still have sex with a female." That would be like you having sex with a dude just because you didn't want to be a virgin even though you're hetero. How well do you think that's gonna work out for ya? Gays are gay and NOT BY CHOICE. It's like men who prefer chicks with big asses or big boobs except a lot of men would be willing to sacrifice a physical attribute they prefer for something of more value. Gays don't really have that luxury. They can't just say "Well I'm attracted to men, but I'll take a woman instead if I have to."

[HaythamKenway]

So after reading a probably large book and what sounds like some serious studying, you cam to the conclusion that the people who believe in the invisible sky man are delusional?

Indeed. I was raised a Catholic my entire life, attended Mass every Sunday, took Communion, and received Confirmation. And eventually I actually studied the Bible for real and understood what it meant. I then did my own study of the Bible and upon understanding it, debated my own fellow Christians who were of a different opinion. At this point I had studied Science to the point where I realized that it was improvable, and indemonstrable. And this was after I had realized that the Bible was mistranslated. BTW, the Bible is mistranslated.

[HaythamKenway]

So after reading a probably large book and what sounds like some serious studying, you cam to the conclusion that the people who believe in the invisible sky man are delusional?

I've read a book that is derived from people who lived thousands of years ago, and I've come to the conclusion that there is zero evidence to believe in this invisible sky god.

[homicidal_misc]

[zmcdole]

I've read a book that is derived from people who lived thousands of years ago, and I've come to the conclusion that there is zero evidence to believe in this invisible sky god.

I basically came to the same conclusions you came to after being a Christian since I was 9 years old.

[CRyan64]

I've read a book that is derived from people who lived thousands of years ago, and I've come to the conclusion that there is zero evidence to believe in this invisible sky god.

I remember when other people's beliefs rustled my jimmies. Now I just don give a fuk.

Brb racist, homophobe, bigot, brb hates group x,y,z...brb no care.

[homicidal_misc]

I remember when other people's beliefs rustled my jimmies. Now I just don give a fuk.

Brb racist, homophobe, bigot, brb hates group x,y,z...brb no care.

If only the rest of these retards saw the logical conclusions of their views like you do, as unintelligible as those conclusions are lol.

[CRyan64]

as unintelligible as those conclusions are lol.

[flairon]

So then you were never a Christian to begin with.

Secondly, there is overwhelming proof that is absolutely a choice, influenced by cultural and environmental factors. Actual research done on the topic, and culture studies done on top of that.

Exactly, it makes me giggle.

I don't think it is a choice for all who are same sex oriented. Nature and human development are not precise, there are deviations. But I don't think that everyone who claims to be gay was born that way

[kneeonbelly]

being gay is a sin

we are all born into sin

the only way out of any sin is to accept Jesus Christ as our lord and Savior

there for, before sin, you are born into said sin- whether its homosexuality,lust , addiction violent rages etc.

all things that are considered 'bad' in the bible you are born into. you don't see anyone teaching 2 year olds how to lie, they just do. it's nature. so to say that someone chooses to be anything is silly. however, accepting Jesus and then trying your best to follow the bible is another story.

[kneeonbelly]

I cant even comment really on what it's like to be gay or what they should do with biblical scriptures because im not gay. all I, or anyone else can do is just mind our business and let them live their lives

if you believe in Jesus, set the example Jesus would want you to set, love and be there for people and leave it alone.

[flairon]

being gay is a sin

we are all born into sin

the only way out of any sin is to accept Jesus Christ as our lord and Savior

there for, before sin, you are born into said sin- whether its homosexuality,lust , addiction violent rages etc.

all things that are considered 'bad' in the bible you are born into. you don't see anyone teaching 2 year olds how to lie, they just do. it's nature. so to say that someone chooses to be anything is silly. however, accepting Jesus and then trying your best to follow the bible is another story.

2 year olds don't lie, they learn to. I hate when bible thumpers try to talk about sciency things.

[zmcdole]

So then you were never a Christian to begin with.

Secondly, there is overwhelming proof that is absolutely a choice, influenced by cultural and environmental factors. Actual research done on the topic, and culture studies done on top of that.



Exactly, it makes me giggle.

so you have studies that prove that sexuality is a choice? Please share

[Godfrd824]

Lasher, is homosexuality a choice? I read the first 2 pages, you didn't provide an answer.

[lasher]

Lasher, is homosexuality a choice? I read the first 2 pages, you didn't provide an answer.

In most cases it probably isn't. Based on everything I've read, it looks like there are biological factors as well as social/familial/cultural factors which influence ones sexual orientation.

[flairon]

Basing my opinions on studies done of a wide range of cultures, it is a choice, though it may be heavily influenced by environmental factors, such as society/culture, the home.

If it was not a choice, it would be common in all cultures around the world. Where as some have never even heard of it.

Also, have you never been around children? They lie, and steal naturally. If you ask a kid about something, if they know there are consequences, they will lie.

If a child wants something, he will take it, whether it is his or not. Until taught that the behavior is socially unacceptable.

Well part of the reason that it is not so prevalent in all cultures equally is because its is not viewed the same way in all cultures. In some cultures being gay is quite literally a death sentence, so same sex oriented people tend to keep quiet.

A child taking something and a child lying are not the same issue. Lying/deception is a learned behavior.

[zmcdole]

Since you can't be bothered to read through the thread, I will post them for the third time... Though I feel re-posting them is futile, as most will not read through them. It is easier, and lazier, to just dismiss what you don't want to accept, than to actually look into it.












http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...-exist/265849/

http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp

"There is little disagreement that male homosexual orientation is not a Mendelian trait. In fact, a priori, one would expect the role of a major gene in male homosexual orientation to be limited because of the strong selective pressures against such a gene. It is unlikely that a major gene underlying such a common trait could persist over time without an extraordinary counterbalancing mechanism (1993, 262:2064).

Evan S. Balaban, a neurobiologist at the Neurosciences Institute in San Diego, noted that

the search for the biological underpinnings of complex human traits has a sorry history of late. In recent years, researchers and the media have proclaimed the “discovery” of genes linked to alcoholism and mental illness as well as to homosexuality. None of the claims...has been confirmed (as quoted in Horgan, 1995).
Charles Mann agreed, stating: “Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromo****l regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated” (1994, 264:1687). It appears that the gay gene will be added to this category of unreplicated claims."


http://ww2.onenewsnow.com/culture/20...y#.U9f9lvldUrU


http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch6.pdf

"Summary:
When Greenberg comments5 that “it is reasonable to suppose that if a bunch of Melanesian infants were to be transported in infancy to the United States and adopted, few would seek out the pederastic
relationships into which they’re inducted in New Guinea,” he summarizes the essence of this chapter. If sexual behaviour were genetically driven, the Melanesian infants would seek out pederastic relationships in their new culture.


The diversity in homosexual activity in different cultures
also argues against genetic enforcement. If homosexuality were genetically mandated, the type of homosexual behaviour would be tightly defined by the genes involved and almost uniform in all cultures. If we want to argue genetic homosexuality, Vines2 report that the human race shares more than 99.7%of its genes, means that of the 22,500 human genes in the human genome, between 23 and 70 genes would have to account for all the variation in homosexual practice that exists globally, in addition to all other non-sexual differences. This is highly unlikely—probably impossible.


If homosexuality were genetic in origin, it would appear at about the same percentage in all cultures. But this is clearly not so. Among the genetically related tribes of the New Guinea Highlands, homosexuality was simultaneously practiced as mandatory pederasty among the Sambia, was unknown in another group even as a concept, and practiced by 2-3%of a closely related group. A significant number of cultures appear not to have practiced homosexuality at all."

Thanks for the links. After reading/skimming through the articles/links I see that none of them support or suggest that homosexuality is a choice that's consciously made by an individual. What I did see is that it's not genetically determined so you can't say you're born that way. I'm fine with that. I did see that there were other things that could INFLUENCE homosexuality such as environment and culture. I'm fine with this as well. However, my problem is this, it's still not a choice that you consciously make. If you're a man you're more than likely going to be attracted to females because of the fact that you are a male and you have testosterone and vice versa. Now let's say that environment and culture influences your sexuality. Is it not true that you were most likely influenced when you were very young by your environment and or culture? You didn't even know it was happening and I doubt being told that you should like men or like women when you were 5 would have much of an impact on what you actually gravitated towards when you hit puberty or when you realized you were attracted to someone. This brings me to my next point. When you started to realize that you were attracted to women (i'm assuming you're attracted to women) you didn't just make that choice. You didn't just decide one day that you would like to look at girls or be around them or that they gave you funny feeling. It just happened. It wasn't a choice. It may not have been genetic, but it wasn't a choice you made.

[Astyanax]

To have this discussion, you need to define homosexuality and attraction. What do they mean?

[ONtop888]

So then you were never a Christian to begin with.

Das u mane.

[stealth_swimmer]

Hetero marriage only works when the gay person has some bi-sexual aspects. That's why marriage was able to work for me. However for most gays the idea of vaginal sex is disgusting to them. I had one person from the forum who was straight and was married to a woman. He felt like he had made progress because he didn't feel like vomiting during sex. That's pretty sad. The choice that you have given to someone that is 100% gay is not winnable.

And anyone that has done any research into mixed orientation marriages will tell you that most end up as disasters. Hurting everyone involved. It amazes me that after all the data about how incredibly harmful your approach to homosexuality is that anyone is still encouraging this. Any reasonable person would have to come to the conclusion that there has to be a better way.

They could choose to be celibate or enter a hetero marriage. If they enter a hetero marriage, they could choose to have sex with their spouse or not have sex.

Secondly, any reasonable person (ie, someone who actually uses reason) would know that value is subjective - therefore, the harm being done by the prescribed course(s) of action could be totally worth it if the things you get out of it are valuable enough to you.

And the logic that you are using is that having a gay relationship is somehow as detrimental to health as that of the life of a drug addict, which is a f*cking absurd statement to make and you should be ashamed of posting such a thing because of how demonstrably untrue it is.

The problem isn't that there are people in this world that only enjoy intimate relationships with the same gender, the problem is that people like you are so f*cking obsessed with the sexual exploits of strangers to the point where one actually questions your own mental health. I'm serious, why the f*ck do you care about what consenting adults are intimate with each other? What business is it of yours? Why are you so interested? Would you ask negative and insulting questions to your heterosexual friends about their sex lives? Why do you do the same towards people you don't even know?

Is it because some book written thousands of years ago equates homosexuality to eating shellfish and working on the Sabbath, among other things?

StealthSwimmer, you are the worst poster I've ever seen other than nonAtlas. And I don't mean it in a nasty way. You're probably a nice guy IRL. But your posts are absolutely terrible, and you come across as a very dumb, bigoted, misinformed, and uneducated fool. No offense meant, I'm just stating facts.

No, actually, that's not the logic I was using. I was using an ANALOGY. If you've taken an English class, you've probably learned about it. Secondly, it's easy to state that a particular homosexual relationship might not be harmful to one's health, but it's a totally different argument to say that it's a safe practice for many people to have, given a social context. Gays tend to be at higher risk of getting AIDS, for example. So when you got gay guys running around behaving the way heteros do with each other, for some reason you end up with a lotta gays getting AIDS.

Secondly - I'm not obsessed with other people's sexual relationships. In all honesty, I really don't care what they do. I'm just saying what Christianity teaches you're supposed to do. People always have the choice to sin or not. I don't lose any sleep over the fact that there are people out there sinning because we all sin. Nowhere did I say homos took up all my time, or that I care about what they do, or that I make negative insulting questions to ask them. In fact, I don't think I've ever asked a gay guy anything about sex. In fact, I don't think I've ever asked anyone anything about their sex lives.

I find it hilarious that you're characterizing me the way you are because i actually would like to see gay marriage legalized (provided no church is forced into honoring the marriage of homos - let them go to a church that will recognize it).


If I've come off as bigoted, it's only because you chose to view me that way. People who have seen my posts in the R&P know that I'm a radical libertarian.

[mntbikedude]

If you're a man you're more than likely going to be attracted to females because of the fact that you are a male and you have testosterone and vice versa.

I was pretty much agreeing with you until I got to this part. Testosterone doesn't have anything to do with it as far as attraction to females. When my test levels are high, then I have the same responses that any man has. I feel more aggressive, more masculine, hornier all of that but my attraction to females is not affected at all. All that happens is I'm even more attracted to men.

I agreed with everything else and just want to restate again that when I first noticed a guy. It wasn't something I even thought about. It just happened. I didn't even know it was wrong until someone told me..... Believe me if it was something I could choose I would have done anything you asked to be able to. I mean this was rural Utah there was no discussion about it and certainly no one was saying it was ok.

When I was 18 I went to therapy thru the Mormon church and it was supposed to make me straight. My therapist talked to me about a method they were testing at BYU where they would hook your genitals up to electrodes and shock the fuark out of them while showing you pictures of men. I didn't even question it, I was like ok let's do it. Thank God he didn't send me there. Instead he decided I was pretty much cured and sent me on my way. My point is that if they had told me that would work I would have completely had no hesitation. I was willing to do anything to not be gay.

So this whole choice thing it kills me that so many think you are like ummmm boobies or cock I just can't decide...... ummmm I guess I'll choose cock. Even though everyone in my culture would think I was an abomination, not to mention the complete hell that it would make my growing up. Yeah I'll choose cock.

BTW the therapy not only didn't work it caused amazing harm to those that went thru it. There were many suicides and the LDS church only admitted that it happened in 2010 after denying it for years.

[stealth_swimmer]

We've been married for 38 years. His name is Sebastian. Would you like to meet him?

But on a serious note, someone in my family is gay. I was raised a Christian and believed every word of it. I was probably about 15, or so, and I believed in the whole bible thing, and my family member (a woman) had been with her partner for over 20 years and came out that they were a couple. Our family initially had a hard time with it, but we eventually realized that their love was just as true and wonderful as that of my own parents. Eventually, of course, I actually READ the Bible, and by that, I really took the time to analyze it and read the entire thing, but to my dismay, I realized that it made ZERO f*cking sense. I finally realized that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't believe in it anymore. And this is after long nights asking and pleading with God to send me a sign so that I knew that I was saved, or begging him at night in tears that I wanted to be born again, to be saved, and guess what? Nothing happened.


So eventually I learned more about the Bible than most Christians and upon debating them, realized that they were delusional. And upon examining my own beliefs, realized that my family member was no different than if she were a male, and if her partner were female, or Vice Versa. Their ceremony was incredible. And by the way, they actually believe in God. I don't.

Dunno what happened in your life, but I can say that the bible does not make "zero" sense. It makes a ton of sense. Maybe you should re-read it. Some parts are hard to grasp, others really aren't. Some parts are literal, others symbolic or making an analogy. Point being, there are parts that are easy to make sense of, and others not so much. It's not like all of it makes perfect sense upon first reading or none of it makes any sense at all.


Oh, and also you don't get a sign for showing you're saved. You either are or you aren't, and you know for yourself. If you do what the bible says in order to be saved, then you're saved. That's it. But you have to actually mean and do your best to follow through with the practice of it, always seeking improvement since all of us will fall short.



Agreed though that many, maybe even most, self-proclaimed Christians are delusional. Of course, I think the same applies to non-Christians and lots of other categories of people that have nothing to do with whether they're religious or not.

[mntbikedude]

They could choose to be celibate or enter a hetero marriage. If they enter a hetero marriage, they could choose to have sex with their spouse or not have sex. .

Yes they could choose to be celibate and for the majority of the male population that isn't possible and in most cases I believe is harmful. They could have a hetero marriage and many do. However they cannot "choose to have sex with their spouse if they are repulsed by them". Then sex really isn't possible at least not for very long and then starts the cycle of living a double dangerous life that ends up destroying both parties.

I've met many gay guys that have married women and read many stories of gay men marrying women and in all but two they were terrible disasters. Mine and one other worked out. I would never have married my wife if I had not felt that intimacy would work.

And btw if you have a daughter would you want her to marry a gay man. I can tell you I have two daughters and I can tell you I would never have wanted them to marry a gay man. So here you have this whole history of how gays living double lifes have had such disastrous consequences. And we see this whole movement to find a better way, to encourage gays to find someone to love and to build a life with. Seriously why is this so hard for so many of you to grasp.

[daisygirl713]

what's your definition of Christian, first and foremost?

i am a Christian by my own definition [none of which can be exploited by outside BS], marked by the God i believe in, fully & solely

but would it offend you, if i told you, that my rela with God.....had [& has] no effect on my belief on whether gays are born, or made?

because in my experience, which is frankly all i need to know, and which is bluntly all you need to know, i've known the most wonderful person...who was born liking men...& who was a man.

is there anything wrong, or different about him? than me or you?

no.

and so, i am left utterly befuddled, by the primitive concept that one man can somehow be deemed greater than the other, solely based on the preference of [his] gender....

makes sense, this does not.

[mntbikedude]

what's your definition of Christian, first and foremost?

i am a Christian by my own definition [none of which can be exploited by outside BS], one God i believe in fully & solely

but would it offend you, if i told you, that my rela with God

had [& has] no effect on my belief on whether gays are born, or made?

because in my experience, which is frankly all i need to know, and which is bluntly all you need to know, i've known the most wonderful person...who was born liking men...who was a man.

is there anything wrong, or different about him? than me or you?

no.

and so, where is the argument, that pokes holes in the idea, that men are born as they are, as they're meant to be?

And it is wonderful that many people are starting to realize that. And realize that God not only can speak to us thru scripture but he can teaches us directly thru out hearts. There was a time I felt like I had to either believe what my heart told me and give up a belief in God or that I could start to recognize that a relationship with God is personal.

It's those quiet moments of personal inspiration that has made me not let what others say or think affect my relationship with God. And for me personally I have that quiet still small voice, a tender mercy from God that has let me know that he's got this covered and is inspiring people all over the world to find better solutions.

For so long I thought God hated me, then I started to think He was ok with me but I was a 2nd class citizen. But I want you to know that I have had a personal confirmation that God loves me and that I was no mistake, and now I'm finally happy that I am who I am. I don't feel I need to be fixed anymore, because I was never broken. Unique yes but not broken.