Compare and Contrast: Allpro's / Novice 5x5 for Bodybuilders

[DetMatthews]

Both of these programs are often recommended over many other beginner routines when it comes to gaining size and for good reason. Here's how they compare to each other.

Allpro's Simple Beginner Routine:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=147447933

JasonDB's Ice Cream Fitness 5x5 Novice Program:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=148036063

Exercise Selection
Advantage: 5x5

Traps are the largest part of your back and without deadlifts in Allpro's there's nothing else to really pick up the slack. SLDLs do hit them hard but not as hard as conventional deadlift. Barbell rows hit them a little, so does military press. But 5x5 has shrugs and deadlifts, as well as the press and rows.

The arm work on the 5x5 seems a little excessive as triceps are hit hard with both presses.

Hyperextensions in 5x5 are a good one, too. Additional lower back work on non-DL days, as well as contributing to lower back recovery. They also hit hamstrings and glutes if done correctly, so there is a hamstring/glute exercise daily, comparing favorably with the SLDL of Allpro's.

Allpro's includes calf raises, but JasonDB has said calves are an individual thing and can be added to his routine. JasonDB's has abs as part of the template, but Allpro's encourages cardio and abs on off days, so those are a wash.

Resetting
Advantage: 5x5 Big time

So you're having a bad day and it just happens to be workout 1 of week 5. You make 11 reps out of 12 on week 5 of Allpro's. If you're following the program, you're screwed for the next 5 weeks.

With the Novice 5x5, you get a second chance so you can be certain it was not a fluke. You also get the opportunity to correct anything that might have contributed like poor sleep or nutrition. Both routines have you reset 10% and work your way back up.

Programming
Advantage: 5x5
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=152068683

Allpro's doesn't care that a press or a row is different from a squat. It progresses exactly the same.

5x5 adds different amounts for different lifts at different intervals, and reduces those amounts when progression gets especially hard. This makes sure you progress as quickly as you can in the beginning, and as slowly as you need to near the end of linear progression.

The higher rep sets are also programmed to increase in small amounts each workout, so no exercises are looked at as "accessory" and done nonchalantly. Allpro's is similar in that every lift is a main lift.

Reps are the only variable in Allpro's. You can't do a 1/2 rep. Allpro's increases 14% every 5 weeks before dropping down to 10% in week 6. That's too little for a beginner, and potentially too much for an advanced novice. The 4% drop in calculated 1RM isn't necessary for a beginner whose recovery isn't yet compromised. And if you're at the point where recovery would be compromised, you probably can't make the 14% jump over 5 weeks anyway. Additional recovery is already programmed into the routine in the form of heavy, medium, and light days.

Kind of a minor point, but the Allpro's FAQ mentions 1.5 min rest between work sets. That's just not doable at higher weights. JasonDB's recommends resting as long as you need to. Big plus.

Ability to put on size
Advantage: 5x5

The variety of rep ranges, as well as the volume of JasonDB's should make it superior for size. The two work sets for Allpro's really kill it. A max of 24 reps (average of 20) for each body part compared to 24 or 25 reps for each exercise in JasonDB's makes it an easy decision.

Practicality
Advantage: Allpro's by a landslide

Obviously JasonDB's lasts basically forever, with the additional sets and exercises, and additional time between sets. Allpro's has fewer sets, fewer rest between sets, and altogether fewer exercises. So time isn't a factor at all with this routine.

For JasonDB's, you need a cable stack, a way to squat/military press, safety pins for shrugs, bench (adjustable if doing incline curls). For Allpro's, all you need is a way to squat/mp and a bench (non-adjustable) making it ideal for home gyms. Of course you could use substitute exercises, but based on the template alone, Allpro's is a much easier program to deal with all the way around.

Overall
Winner: 5x5

Wow. I didn't decide to make this thread thinking I'd just **** all over Allpro's but apparently that's what happened. I have never done either of these programs.

For a true beginner, I don't think either one is ideal, but IMO JasonDB's is closer to ideal than Allpro's for almost any level. What does everyone else think?

[chrissypoo13]

Well thought out. I agree with your points. I like the quicker progression for beginners on jasondbs, but think neither program should be done for true 100% beginners. This is just my opinion, but for people like my step dad who is older, works a physically demanding job, and is in no hurry for strength gains but is rather lifting for practicality and health purposes, I would put him on all pros. For the teenager who wants a mix of strength and size increases as fast as possible, jasondbs. I dont know, I came up with that on my own. Just an opinion!

[Adrian77]

Jason himself has said that the amount of size gained over a similar period on both programs is about the same but the strength gains is what sets them apart.

[DetMatthews]

Jason himself has said that the amount of size gained over a similar period on both programs is about the same but the strength gains is what sets them apart.

Where did he say that? Not doubting you in the least, just kind of surprised.

If your goal is size and you can get to the same place with significantly less time and effort spent, that seems pretty awesome.

[Adrian77]

Where did he say that? Not doubting you in the least, just kind of surprised.

If your goal is size and you can get to the same place with significantly less time and effort spent, that seems pretty awesome.

Here is the quote:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post981474233

In other posts, he has said that some will respond better to his program while others will respond better to Allpro's. I think the point he is getting at is that his program works on increasing mechanical load as the mechanism for progression while Allpro's works on increasing TUT to progress people and that it comes down to what suits the individual.

[brucedelaney]

Repped, Good stuff DetMatthews.. I wish a bunch of people would read this.

[cotcot]

Greyskull seems the best one...

I'm gonna run it for sure.

[DetMatthews]

Here is the quote:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post981474233

In other posts, he has said that some will respond better to his program while others will respond better to Allpro's. I think the point he is getting at is that his program works on increasing mechanical load as the mechanism for progression while Allpro's works on increasing TUT to progress people and that it comes down to what suits the individual.

That's really interesting. I thought TUT would be higher with JasonDB's because of the volume, but I guess TUT per set would be significantly higher with Allpro's. Good call.

The more I think about it, it's more of an advanced routine. Ideal progression for mass might be SL5x5 > JasonDB's > Allpro's.

Allpro's progresses slightly slower for all but the highest weights, and has so much time for recovery. So after you've progressed pass JasonDB's, you may make it through a cycle or two of Allpro's before going to a true intermediate routine.

[cotcot]

@Matthews, do you regret going with greyskull instead of a 5x5 like SL?

[DetMatthews]

**** no. I did SS for a while. My goals are not size, and never have been. Gaining muscle is easy for me. Where most people wouldn't make the kinds of gains they're looking for from 3x5, I was able to do ok. So I could still look the way I want to look (big and strong, not lean and defined) without doing anything except focusing on increasing my lifts. I was never really the target market for SL5x5, Allpro's, JasonDB's or anything else focused on mass. Those are great for other goals, and for a variety of experience levels, but SS was right for me.

When I became too advanced for SS and my recovery was compromised, I switched to Greyskull, and it seems to be ok.

Most balanced routines have a place somewhere. You just gotta make sure you're doing the program that fits your goals and experience level best.

[Adrian77]

That's really interesting. I thought TUT would be higher with JasonDB's because of the volume, but I guess TUT per set would be significantly higher with Allpro's. Good call.

The more I think about it, it's more of an advanced routine. Ideal progression for mass might be SL5x5 > JasonDB's > Allpro's.

Allpro's progresses slightly slower for all but the highest weights, and has so much time for recovery. So after you've progressed pass JasonDB's, you may make it through a cycle or two of Allpro's before going to a true intermediate routine.

I think you misunderstood me.

Jason does not increase reps from week to week. He increases weight. TUT never changes. Overall volume is greater than allpro's but it is not progressed at any point. I would put it last in the list because a noob's volume tolerance would be too low and they'd burn out fast.

Allpro's keeps the weight the same for a month (5 weeks) and uses increasing reps to progress (I know there is heavy med, light but week to week it is the same).

By the time you are done with Jason's program, you would be beyond Allpro's. With only 2 work sets per exercise you would need much greater stimulation to cause a decent growth response.

The choice is really SL5x5 OR Allpro's, then Jason's 5x5 and then an intermediate program. Obviously there is a degree of overlap. So they can go from Allpro's (after about a year) into an intermediate program after that if they want to. They will just have less strength by comparison.

[DetMatthews]

I think you misunderstood me.

Jason does not increase reps from week to week. He increases weight. TUT never changes. Overall volume is greater than allpro's but it is not progressed at any point. I would put it last in the list because a noob's volume tolerance would be too low and they'd burn out fast.

Allpro's keeps the weight the same for a month (5 weeks) and uses increasing reps to progress (I know there is heavy med, light but week to week it is the same).

By the time you are done with Jason's program, you would be beyond Allpro's. With only 2 work sets per exercise you would need much greater stimulation to cause a decent growth response.

The choice is really SL5x5 OR Allpro's, then Jason's 5x5 and then an intermediate program. Obviously there is a degree of overlap. So they can go from Allpro's (after about a year) into an intermediate program after that if they want to. They will just have less strength by comparison.

Yeah I know the TUT never changes with JasonDB's, but the total TUT for all sets of an exercise would always be higher with JasonDB's. It doesn't change, but it is always higher. Or maybe TUT is only important on a set by set basis, idk.

I agree about the stimulation not being enough, I guess I was just thinking of increasing 1RM at that point (with my mind on my weight progression and my weight progression on my mind). Weight progresses much slower on Allpro's so I figured you would go from fast progression to slow progression (with lots of recovery) to eek out the last few novice gains.

And we're on the same page about the volume tolerance. That's why I always recommend SL5x5 and gradually transition to JasonDB's (since they share common core lifts) to any beginner with size as their main priority.

[Adrian77]

Yeah I know the TUT never changes with JasonDB's, but the total TUT for all sets of an exercise would always be higher with JasonDB's. It doesn't change, but it is always higher. Or maybe TUT is only important on a set by set basis, idk.

I agree about the stimulation not being enough, I guess I was just thinking of increasing 1RM at that point (with my mind on my weight progression and my weight progression on my mind). Weight progresses much slower on Allpro's so I figured you would go from fast progression to slow progression (with lots of recovery) to eek out the last few novice gains.

And we're on the same page about the volume tolerance. That's why I always recommend SL5x5 and gradually transition to JasonDB's (since they share common core lifts) to any beginner with size as their main priority.

You're not getting it, but I think you are agreeing with me. lol

Progressive overload is commonly put into a program by either:

a)INCREASING the mechanical load

b)INCREASING the time under tension.

Jason's program uses a) only. He never utilises hypertrophy gains by increases in TUT. Yes the TUT is much greater BUT the mechanical loading is much lower to compensate. It's like 3x7=21 and 7x3=21

Allpro uses both a) and b) but only a) sparingly.

As Jason says, they will both wash out to be roughly the same in the long run in terms of hypertrophy. So there is no right or wrong for a person who is developed enough to do both.

[rdferguson]

I think both are better than most beginners would come up with themselves, but I don't think either is great (I don't think SS or SL5x5 are great, either).

All Pro's covers the basics and is really clear. How there are a so many threads full of people asking questions about it amazes me -- basically every major question is covered succinctly in the very original post by all pro. The fact that it's all done with barbells is good for simplicity, but, IMO, not so great for results. I think the program is too easy in a sense -- built in recovery, lighter days and the slow progression of adding 1 rep a week, then dropping the reps back and adding 10% onto the load is far less than a beginner can handle. If the 2nd and 3rd training days are 10 and 20% lighter than the first training day, I think they should have more reps, or at least less rest. Alternatively, I see no reason why the average beginner shouldn't be able to add 1 rep onto most exercises in every workout, and then up the weight every 2 weeks.

Where All Pro's goes softer than I think is fitting, I think JasonDB's goes overboard in the other direction. 5x5 is hard and time-consuming. There's a reason why SL5x5 only has 3 exercises per day. Once you get up to weights that are heavy enough to justify stopping at 5 reps, you're looking at a 3+ minute rest between sets. Assuming each set takes about 1min, that's a minimum of 20min for the working sets of the 5x5 exercises, plus warm up times, which are conservatively 5min, but in reality can take much longer. At a very conservative rate, this means that you'll be in the gym for about 1:15 before getting into all of the assistance exercises, which could easily take up another 30min+ if you're not doing them in supersets, a circuit, or half-arsedly.

[Adrian77]

I think both are better than most beginners would come up with themselves, but I don't think either is great (I don't think SS or SL5x5 are great, either).

All Pro's covers the basics and is really clear. How there are a so many threads full of people asking questions about it amazes me -- basically every major question is covered succinctly in the very original post by all pro. The fact that it's all done with barbells is good for simplicity, but, IMO, not so great for results. I think the program is too easy in a sense -- built in recovery, lighter days and the slow progression of adding 1 rep a week, then dropping the reps back and adding 10% onto the load is far less than a beginner can handle. If the 2nd and 3rd training days are 10 and 20% lighter than the first training day, I think they should have more reps, or at least less rest. Alternatively, I see no reason why the average beginner shouldn't be able to add 1 rep onto most exercises in every workout, and then up the weight every 2 weeks.

Where All Pro's goes softer than I think is fitting, I think JasonDB's goes overboard in the other direction. 5x5 is hard and time-consuming. There's a reason why SL5x5 only has 3 exercises per day. Once you get up to weights that are heavy enough to justify stopping at 5 reps, you're looking at a 3+ minute rest between sets. Assuming each set takes about 1min, that's a minimum of 20min for the working sets of the 5x5 exercises, plus warm up times, which are conservatively 5min, but in reality can take much longer. At a very conservative rate, this means that you'll be in the gym for about 1:15 before getting into all of the assistance exercises, which could easily take up another 30min+ if you're not doing them in supersets, a circuit, or half-arsedly.

The Allpro people will say that you are adding 2.5% to your 1RM each week as it is, so compound that over 52 weeks minus deloads, it's nothing to sneeze at. But I agree that it is very rigid but then again it's made for noobs who probably need rigidity.

The JasonDB people will say he's set up the long sessions that way on purpose because it's designed for rapid progression not convenience. I agree that it's crushingly long and it's definitely not for everyone.

I think all programs have their strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day, it comes down to what suits the individual and what they can consistently stick to.

I bet if you posted an alternate plan, there'd be people poking holes in it all day long.

[DetMatthews]

You're not getting it, but I think you are agreeing with me. lol

Progressive overload is commonly put into a program by either:

a)INCREASING the mechanical load

b)INCREASING the time under tension.

Jason's program uses a) only. He never utilises hypertrophy gains by increases in TUT. Yes the TUT is much greater BUT the mechanical loading is much lower to compensate. It's like 3x7=21 and 7x3=21

Allpro uses both a) and b) but only a) sparingly.

As Jason says, they will both wash out to be roughly the same in the long run in terms of hypertrophy. So there is no right or wrong for a person who is developed enough to do both.

No, we are agreeing and we're both on the same page. I know that JasonDB's doesn't manipulate TUT, but the total TUT for all sets of an exercise is always going to be higher with JasonDB's than Allpro's assuming the reps are done as quickly as possible. Of course the TUT per set will always be higher with Allpro's regardless of where you are in the cycle. That's all I'm saying.

I think both are better than most beginners would come up with themselves, but I don't think either is great (I don't think SS or SL5x5 are great, either).

All Pro's covers the basics and is really clear. How there are a so many threads full of people asking questions about it amazes me -- basically every major question is covered succinctly in the very original post by all pro. The fact that it's all done with barbells is good for simplicity, but, IMO, not so great for results. I think the program is too easy in a sense -- built in recovery, lighter days and the slow progression of adding 1 rep a week, then dropping the reps back and adding 10% onto the load is far less than a beginner can handle. If the 2nd and 3rd training days are 10 and 20% lighter than the first training day, I think they should have more reps, or at least less rest. Alternatively, I see no reason why the average beginner shouldn't be able to add 1 rep onto most exercises in every workout, and then up the weight every 2 weeks.

Where All Pro's goes softer than I think is fitting, I think JasonDB's goes overboard in the other direction. 5x5 is hard and time-consuming. There's a reason why SL5x5 only has 3 exercises per day. Once you get up to weights that are heavy enough to justify stopping at 5 reps, you're looking at a 3+ minute rest between sets. Assuming each set takes about 1min, that's a minimum of 20min for the working sets of the 5x5 exercises, plus warm up times, which are conservatively 5min, but in reality can take much longer. At a very conservative rate, this means that you'll be in the gym for about 1:15 before getting into all of the assistance exercises, which could easily take up another 30min+ if you're not doing them in supersets, a circuit, or half-arsedly.

I totally agree and that's the whole point of my post. Allpro's simply progresses so much more slowly than a beginner can, and it leaves lots of progression on the table. It'll get you there eventually, but why get there slower when you can just, I don't know, not get there slower? For a beginner capable of making that progression, there is absolutely no downside to doing so. The way it's set up seems almost intermediate, periodized into 5 week cycles, with rotating intensities within the week, it's just an odd way to set up a beginner routine when that should be the most aggressive time of a lifter's career.

We're on the same page about JasonDB's as well. That's why I always recommend SL before moving to JasonDB's because they don't need that volume to grow. Add it when you need additional stimulation to grow, and add it slowly enough that you become conditioned to it and it doesn't bury your CNS.

[rdferguson]

The Allpro people will say that you are adding 2.5% to your 1RM each week as it is, so compound that over 52 weeks minus deloads, it's nothing to sneeze at. But I agree that it is very rigid but then again it's made for noobs who probably need rigidity.

The JasonDB people will say he's set up the long sessions that way on purpose because it's designed for rapid progression not convenience. I agree that it's crushingly long and it's definitely not for everyone.

I think all programs have their strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day, it comes down to what suits the individual and what they can consistently stick to.

I bet if you posted an alternate plan, there'd be people poking holes in it all day long.

Very true.

I totally agree and that's the whole point of my post. Allpro's simply progresses so much more slowly than a beginner can, and it leaves lots of progression on the table. It'll get you there eventually, but why get there slower when you can just, I don't know, not get there slower? For a beginner capable of making that progression, there is absolutely no downside to doing so. The way it's set up seems almost intermediate, periodized into 5 week cycles, with rotating intensities within the week, it's just an odd way to set up a beginner routine when that should be the most aggressive time of a lifter's career.

We're on the same page about JasonDB's as well. That's why I always recommend SL before moving to JasonDB's because they don't need that volume to grow. Add it when you need additional stimulation to grow, and add it slowly enough that you become conditioned to it and it doesn't bury your CNS.

Sounds like a good recommendation to me. Start with SS, start adding in more exercises when needed and in small, gradual doses.

[DeltaCharlie75]

Currently doing All pros and I agree with a lot you have written, both positive and negative for the program.

I have found that some of the negatives can be easily countered. For instance a complete noob can increase the weight more than the stated 10% for the first few cycles. The week 5 day 1 point also is valid as it determines the progress of the next 5 weeks on one day. To counter this, if I fail any lifts I will drop the med and light days and do another heavy day to re-test the lifts to see if I was just having a bad day on the first attempt.

Also the term beginner is rather catch all. Beginners will be of different ages, weights, abilities and have different goals and to suggest one program is better than another for all these different factors will not work. For instance Being an older gent and only been lifting since October, I find that All pros progression suits me at this time but I would not recommend a 16 yr old to this program when they would be able to benefit from one of the more aggressive program's. Also new lifters who will be cutting straight away may benefit from a slow progression scheme initially rather than one that has aggressive progression.

Also agree with the point that the novice 5x5 is not for beginners. Iirc Jason stated on the first couple pages of his thread that the target audience for his program is lifters who have been lifting for a few months.

My own personal view is that a program is just a tool, and you pick the correct tool for the job at that time. My current plan is to finish cutting after another few cycles of all pro and then take advantage of bulking to move onto a more aggressive program such as Sl or novice 5x5.

Another good post Det, now if you link it to your other 5x5 post it will save me posting two links.

[DetMatthews]

I have found that some of the negatives can be easily countered. For instance a complete noob can increase the weight more than the stated 10% for the first few cycles. The week 5 day 1 point also is valid as it determines the progress of the next 5 weeks on one day. To counter this, if I fail any lifts I will drop the med and light days and do another heavy day to re-test the lifts to see if I was just having a bad day on the first attempt.

Also the term beginner is rather catch all. Beginners will be of different ages, weights, abilities and have different goals and to suggest one program is better than another for all these different factors will not work. For instance Being an older gent and only been lifting since October, I find that All pros progression suits me at this time but I would not recommend a 16 yr old to this program when they would be able to benefit from one of the more aggressive program's. Also new lifters who will be cutting straight away may benefit from a slow progression scheme initially rather than one that has aggressive progression.

My own personal view is that a program is just a tool, and you pick the correct tool for the job at that time. My current plan is to finish cutting after another few cycles of all pro and then take advantage of bulking to move onto a more aggressive program such as Sl or novice 5x5.

Great points I hadn't really considered. The higher increase would make it more linear to start. And the additional test day is genius.

I don't want it to sound like Allpro's has absolutely no role in lifting, it's a really really good program. But to me a beginner is defined by inherently good recovery that Allpro's doesn't take advantage of. Allpro's is ideal for anyone who is either:
1. Restricted by time and/or facilities
2. Has lowered recovery due either to age or some other reason
3. Involved in other conditioning (basically neither strength nor mass gain are their main athletic priority)
4. Has joint issues that make the low rep sets and aggressive weight progression a problem.

It's also great for people who don't know how the hell to control themselves who are tempted to walk into a gym at 52, load up the weight (on a barbell) that they benched for a single (on a universal) at 18, and drop 300 pounds on themselves. And that's why I'm probably going to put my dad on it when he starts working out again.

I can't edit the main post anymore, but the link is in my sig.

[lrd3]

excellent comparisons... i find my self recommending AP to anyone who has never lifted seriously before as it does progress slowly. and gives the newb time to perfect there form. (3+ cycles minimum) were if they were just to jump in to the weight increase of jason's 5x5 they could be headed down a dangerous path..... jmho.
i ran AP for 4+ cycles before jumping in to jason's version of the 5x5. not because i didn't make great gains on all pro (i was still progressing) but mostly because i was Bord. and knew i wanted longer gym sessions and was ready for some better isolation lifts...
they definitely both have there place here.....
ps - subbed and rep+ OP

[dcbawden]

Great points I hadn't really considered. The higher increase would make it more linear to start. And the additional test day is genius.

I don't want it to sound like Allpro's has absolutely no role in lifting, it's a really really good program. But to me a beginner is defined by inherently good recovery that Allpro's doesn't take advantage of. Allpro's is ideal for anyone who is either:
1. Restricted by time and/or facilities
2. Has lowered recovery due either to age or some other reason
3. Involved in other conditioning (basically neither strength nor mass gain are their main athletic priority)
4. Has joint issues that make the low rep sets and aggressive weight progression a problem.

It's also great for people who don't know how the hell to control themselves who are tempted to walk into a gym at 52, load up the weight (on a barbell) that they benched for a single (on a universal) at 18, and drop 300 pounds on themselves. And that's why I'm probably going to put my dad on it when he starts working out again.

I can't edit the main post anymore, but the link is in my sig.

Nice post Det. And I'm glad some else said that about retesting in week 5. I failed bench only on rep 10 second set and was considering doing this as well. When choosing my program pretty much all 4 of those considerations came in for me. Age, other condition etc.

One question in your analysis do you believe one program is better then another depending on whether or not in individual is on cut or bulk? Because that is another reason I decided on all pros it seemed more cut friendly.

[DetMatthews]

Eh, I'd say Allpro's might be better on a cut. You're not going to be able to make the kind of aggressive progression JasonDB's calls for on a deficit. It'll also depend on what you're used to, though. Like Adrian77 said, if you're conditioned to the volume of JasonDB's, Allpro's will not be enough stimulation.

If you're already doing JasonDB's, though, something's gotta give on a caloric deficit. Either volume (reduce hypertrophy stuff by a workset each and core lifts to 3x5) or intensity (weight jumps reduced or working set weight reduced).

[lrd3]

Eh, I'd say Allpro's might be better on a cut. You're not going to be able to make the kind of aggressive progression JasonDB's calls for on a deficit. It'll also depend on what you're used to, though. Like Adrian77 said, if you're conditioned to the volume of JasonDB's, Allpro's will not be enough stimulation.

If you're already doing JasonDB's, though, something's gotta give on a caloric deficit. Either volume (reduce hypertrophy stuff by a workset each and core lifts to 3x5) or intensity (weight jumps reduced or working set weight reduced).

Jason recommends changing the set range on a cut for his 5x5
5x5 becomes 3x5
3x8 becomes 2x8
there is a few folks running it on a cut now... and it looks good

[musikguy72]

E
If you're already doing JasonDB's, though, something's gotta give on a caloric deficit. Either volume (reduce hypertrophy stuff by a workset each and core lifts to 3x5) or intensity (weight jumps reduced or working set weight reduced).

You would be right: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...036063&page=30
Post #881

[skinny-ricky]

Why did this thread die? An intelligent civil discussion about the two programs that i am considering just came to a halt. I'm bumping it with the hopes to re-start the discussion. I'll add that several posters mentioned that neither was ideal if size was the main objective. I'd like to know what the suggest instead. If size is the main objective. thanks.

[7Seconds]

Why did this thread die? An intelligent civil discussion about the two programs that i am considering just came to a halt. I'm bumping it with the hopes to re-start the discussion. I'll add that several posters mentioned that neither was ideal if size was the main objective. I'd like to know what the suggest instead. If size is the main objective. thanks.

Don't over analyze this. Pick one and stick to it. There is no "best" program for size; if there was then we would all be doing it. Focus on Progression on basic compound lifts, appropriate diet and rest, and consistent effort. Either program will do.

[Jonesman59]

I have seen a lot of results from AllPros and people are hitting the 2/3/4 on their big three within 5-8 cycles. Since Jason's program is so new many people are still trying to get to those numbers. I would say though that after about 9-12 months on either program you will end up around the same spot. On Jason's program as you near the 2/3/4 for 5x5 you will be resetting much more and more to get there. Where in AllPros people really are not resetting that often, especially if they are in a surplus. Let me know your guys thoughts on this as I am just a noob and these are from merely observations and much lurking.

I have been on Jason's 5x5 but only cutting on it so far. I will be transitioning into a bulk here soon and I have lifting experience of about a year and most of that year was wasted dirty bulking (which I have spent the last 6 months paying for). Most of what I have done is low rep work so honestly I will probably be doing AllPros for the change of pace. People coming off Allpros are benching 2x12 at 185 for bench or 2x12 at 245 for squat which is really respectable and puts them into the intermediate stage.

But really as it has already been stated, you will get the best results from the one that you are able to stick with and just enjoy. They are both great programs.

[bulkinseasonbro]

...Allpro's simply progresses so much more slowly than a beginner can, and it leaves lots of progression on the table. It'll get you there eventually, but why get there slower when you can just, I don't know, not get there slower? For a beginner capable of making that progression, there is absolutely no downside to doing so...

Hey, just a quick question. I have been doing SS (~10 months), then greyskull LP for ~(3months) (total is ~ over a year) (before all of this i ****ed around alot in the gym not doing SS properly at all haha) But as of my lifts are::
I squat 250 x5
deadlift 300 x 5
row 160 x 5
press 115 x 5
bench 165 x 5
and I weigh about 176lbs right now.

my question is, should I do a couple rounds of ALLPRO. I feel as though I am not a beginner per say, and that I am intermediate, so would all pro be more of a benefit for me. Id like to add some mass to my body and i have a hunch i will respond to higher reps for a bit. Should i maybe just do a Hypertrophy-Specific Training Cycle? I am abit confused.

I am just wondering because I have reset a few times on squat press and deadlifts lately on GSLP.