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  1. #1
    Dirty bulker. redheadlaw7's Avatar
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    New to Keto? - Look Here First *Frequently Asked Questions*

    One of the most frequently asked questions is regarding ketostix. Many people ask if they are still in ketosis if the stick is only showing trace amounts of ketones. My response to this question would be that you are either in ketosis or you are not. If you are only showing trace amounts that could be a sign that you are either properly hydrated or that you are using the excess ketones as fuel. When you first start off with this diet these may be helpful in the sense that they keep you encouraged and assure you that you are in fact doing everything right but eventually you will be able to sense when you are in or out of keto and eventually you will see these as a waste of money. They can also be a source of frustration if you measure too late in the day or when you are extremely hydrated. If you are keeping your carbs low and getting in enough exercise you can be pretty confident that you are in ketosis. I personally have never measured more than trace so I have stopped using them.
    Last edited by redheadlaw7; 11-11-2009 at 06:23 AM.
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  2. #2
    Yea I'm Different PLANETGETLOW's Avatar
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    I stickied this one for you.

    Try to keep it JUST FAQS and not discussions or debates and I'll do my best to keep it clean.
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  3. #3
    Pass The Refridgerator kudostojen's Avatar
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    How to carb up on CKD

    To shift the body out of ketosis and toward a more anabolic state, dieters will need to begin consuming carbohydrates approximately 5 hours prior to the final workout. At this time, a small amount of carbohydrates, perhaps 25 to 50 grams, can be consumed along with some protein and unsaturated fats, to begin the upregulation of liver enzymes. The type of carbohydrate needed has not been studied and individuals are encouraged to experiment with different types and amounts of foods. Approximately 2 hours before the final workout, a combination of glucose and fructose (with optional glutamine) should be consumed, to refill liver glycogen. Once again, specific amounts have not been determined but 25 to 50 grams total carbohydrate would seem a good place to start.

    Nutrient intake

    During the first 24 hours of carb-loading, carbohydrate intake should be 10 grams per kilogram of lean body mass or 4.5 grams of carbs per pound of lean body mass . This will represent 70% of the total calories consumed. The remaining calories are divided evenly between fat (15% of total calories) and protein (15% of total calories). Table 2 gives estimated amounts of carbohydrate, protein and fat for various amounts of lean body mass. During the second 24 hours of carb-loading, carbohydrates will make up 60% of the total calories, protein 25% and fat 15% as shown in table 3.

    Summary of guidelines for glycogen supercompensation on the CKD

    1. -5 hours prior to your final workout before the carb-up, consume 25-50 grams of carbohydrate with some protein to begin the shift out of ketosis. Small amounts of protein and fat may be added to this meal.
    2. -2 hours prior to the final workout, consume 25-50 grams of glucose and fructose (such as fruit) to refill liver glycogen.
    3. -The level of glycogen resynthesis depends on the duration of the carb-up and the amount of carbohydrates consumed. In 24 hours, glycogen levels of 100-110 mmol/kg can be achieved as long as 10 grams carb/kg lean body mass are consumed. During the second 24 hours of carbing, an intake of 5 grams/kg lean body mass is recommended.
    4.- During the first 24 hours, the macronutrient ratios should be 70% carbs, 15% protein and 15% fat. During the second 24 hours, the ratios are roughly 60% carbs, 25% protein and 15% fat.
    5. -As long as sufficient amounts of carbohydrate are consumed, the type and timing of intake is relatively less important. However, some data suggests the higher glycogen levels can be attained over 24 hours, if higher Glycemic Index (GI) carbs are consumed. If carbing is continued past 24 hours, lower GI foods should be consumed.

    Summary

    Assuming full depletion, which requires a variable amount of training depending on the length of the carb-up, glycogen levels can be refilled to normal within 24 hours, assuming that carbohydrate consumption is sufficient. With longer or shorter carb-loading periods, muscle glycogen levels can reach higher or lower levels respectively.

    During the initial 24 hours of carb-loading, a carbohydrate intake of 8-10 grams of carbs per kilogram of lean body mass will refill muscle glycogen to normal levels. Although less well researched, it appears that a carbohydrate intake of roughly 5 grams/kg lean body mass is appropriate. While the type of carbohydrate ingested during the first 24 hours of carb loading is less critical, it is recommended that lower GI carbs be consumed during the second 24 hours to avoid fat regain. The addition of other nutrients to the carb-load phase does not appear to affect glycogen resynthesis rates. However fat intake must be limited somewhat to avoid fat gain.
    It is currently unknown how the insertion of a carb-loading phase will affect the adaptations to ketosis. As well, no long term data exists on the metabolic effects which are seen. Therefore it can not be recommended that the CKD be followed indefinitely and a more balanced diet should be undertaken as soon as one's goals are achieved.

    A question which is asked is whether the carb-load is anabolic, stimulating muscle growth while dieting. As muscle growth requires an overall anabolic metabolism, the body must be shifted out of ketosis (which is catabolic) during the carb-load. This requires that liver metabolism be shifted away from ketone production, which necessitates both an increase in certain enzymes as well as a refilling of liver glycogen. Therefore the carb-load really begins about 5 hours prior to the final workout when a small amount of carbohydrates should be consumed to begin upregulating liver enzymes. Approximately 2 hours prior to the workout, a combination of glucose and fructose should be consumed to refill liver glycogen. Glutamine is an optional addition that may increase liver glycogen levels.

    There are a number of ways that the carb-load might affect muscle growth. The primary mechanism is by increasing insulin and amino acid availability. The second is by increasing cellular hydration levels. Both have the potential to increase protein synthesis while decreasing protein breakdown.

    Ultimately the question must be asked as to just how much new muscle can be synthesized during a carb-up of 24 to 48 hours. Even assuming zero muscle breakdown during the ketogenic week, the amount of new muscle synthesized is likely to be small. So while individuals may gain a small amount of muscle during a CKD, it should not be expected or counted on.



    Reference: Lyle McDonald, The Ketogenic Diet

    See http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=117544921 if you have questions.
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  4. #4
    Evil Twin #2 jaim91's Avatar
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    Wooo!!!

    We be makin things happen on the keto boards

    I'm glad I was here for this!!!!!
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  5. #5
    Cailin Deas Eileen's Avatar
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    Calculating your calories

    For an average person who commutes to a desk job, around 13 calories per pound of total weight is close to maintenance. To lose, you have to reduce from this.

    For keto, allow 1g of protein per pound of LEAN mass, and assume this is 30% of your calories. Allow 20g of carbs and the rest of your calories should be from fat. You should find that the number of fat grams is fairly close to the number of protein grams.

    Your carb-up calories depend on your goals. If you have a lot of fat to lose, then keep your carb-up short and carb up at maintenance. So around 13 cals per pound, with 30% coming from protein, 5% or as low as possible from fat, and the rest from carbs.

    If you need to lose fat, but want to build muscle too, then around 10-30% above maintenance calories is about right.

    If you are seriously ripped, or are bulking, you can go 50% above maintenance. Do not try this until you know your tolerance for carb-ups.
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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  6. #6
    Cailin Deas Eileen's Avatar
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    Typical foods for keto and Carb-up

    Base a keto diet on whole eggs, oily fish, fresh meat, chicken and turkey, lots and lots and LOTS of green vegetables, extra virgin olive oil, cheese, butter, cream, nuts and seeds.

    Take a whey shake after lifting, real food the rest of the time.

    Avoid processed foods, trans fats, any form of sugar, grains milk, fruit, or anything labeled "low carb" or worse "net carb".

    On carb-up, eat root veg, beans, pulses, fruit, oatmeal, low fat dairy, wholegrains, unrefined cereals. Avoid junk food, and avoid or limit sugar or white flour. Have one high gi meal after your PWO shake, and stick to lower gi whole foods the rest of the time.

    Good carb-up foods are oatmeal served hot, or oats soaked in skim milk till soft.
    Baked potatoes with baked beans.
    Sweet potato and chicken breast.
    Tuna and brown rice and salsa.
    Stirfry with rice noodles, tomato and shrimp.
    Seafood chowder with skim milk, onion, sweetcorn and white fish.
    Lentil and carrot soup, or minestrone soup, served with rye crackers.
    Irish stew (lean beef, potato, carrots, onion, stock)
    Rice pudding.
    Skinny cappuccino and pumpernickel bagel.
    Muesli and skim milk.
    Wholegrain bread and fat free cream cheese.
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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  7. #7
    Dirty bulker. redheadlaw7's Avatar
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    BMR and Activity Level calculator

    To build on Eileen's post about how to calculate calories I thought it would be helpful to add this link to a Basal Metabolic Rate calculator.

    http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

    Once you calculate your BMR you can then determine your daily caloric needs based on the Harris Benedict equation which is also provided. I have found that most people who are exercising several times per week and who are lifting heavy can probably multiply their bodyweight by 15 and possibly 16 if they have a job that requires they move around a lot. To cut you reduce this by 500, to bulk you will add 500. You do NOT want to create too large a deficit even if you have a large amount of weight to lose. This is because if your body becomes accustomed to the deficit and plateaus, you want to be able to decrease your calories again without having to starve yourself. So take your time and lose the weight gradually. If you do so it is more likely that it will come off and stay off.
    Last edited by redheadlaw7; 11-11-2009 at 02:33 PM.
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  8. #8
    Pass The Refridgerator kudostojen's Avatar
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    Fibrous Carbs are NOT counted in net carbs.

    the fiber carbs eaten while on the keto diet are NOT to be counted in your daily net carbs.

    Example...My Flat Out Bread has 16g of carbs. There are 8g of fiber carbs. My total net carbs are 8g of carbs.

    16g - 8g of fiber = 8 net carbs which are to be counted.

    Our bodies do not absorb fibrous carbs so they are not counted.
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  9. #9
    Pass The Refridgerator kudostojen's Avatar
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    The Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD)

    This diet is not the same as the CKD. There is no carb up and carbs are consumed around the time of your training. Those who do high intensity training would benefit more from the TKD than other keto diets.

    Consuming carbs before your w/o is to provide glycogen to your muscles to help fuel your training to enhance your performance in the gym. You should not be kicked out of ketosis but if you are it will be for only a few hours.

    It's recommended to consume a fast digesting carbohydrate (high GI) pre-workout, 25g to 50g. Something in powder form and put into a shake would be sufficient. Do NOT add fat to this pre-w/o meal/shake. It would be wise for you to experiment with the amount of carbs pre-workout to find what works for you.

    If you're also interested in taking post workout carbs to help with recovery, 25to 50g would be sufficient. Fructose and sucrose should be avoided as they can refill liver glycogen and interrupt ketosis. A good protein shake will help with recovery as well if you chose not to have carbs.
    Last edited by kudostojen; 11-11-2009 at 03:00 PM.
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  10. #10
    Registered User queloque's Avatar
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    How long should it take you to get back into ketosis after Carb-up?

    This is based on a typical 150 lb person with 22% bodyfat or a little over 33 pounds of fat not on any diet.

    Tissue Caloric worth (kcal)
    Adipose tissue triglyceride (fat) - 135,000
    Muscle protein - 24,000

    Carbohydrate stores in calories
    Muscle glycogen (normal) - 480
    Liver glycogen - 280
    Blood glucose - 80
    Total carbohydrate stores - 840

    First understand that Carbs are SHORT TERM energy and fats are LONG TERM energy. You can also see that our body stores more fat than we can imagine and very little carbs. We could live off of our fat alone for 6 months to a year but not very long with carbs. So its not unusual for our body to use fats as energy. You are just using it for short term energy under keto along with long term energy.

    What you see above is a typical 150 pound person who has 840 calories or 210 grams worth of carb stores throughout their body. That's a typical carb-up amount for some people doing keto. Remember under keto we eat 30 grams a day or roughly 120 calories of carbs a day.

    Basically your body has a sufficient amount of Carbs to sustain roughly one day worth of energy if you don't eat any more carbs. After that your body goes after fat reserves and/or muscle. For many they can get back into ketosis 1 day after carb-ups. For others 2 to 3 but it depends upon your workouts after the carb-up. The point is that it is or should be very easy to deplete carbs in 1 day if you do the proper workout routine. Some people do a nice cardio routine which is ideal to get back into ketosis after a carb-up.

    Source: The Ketogenic Diet
    Last edited by queloque; 11-12-2009 at 11:50 AM.
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  11. #11
    Dirty bulker. redheadlaw7's Avatar
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    Why hasn't my scale budged?

    I have seen people come and go on this board and many have left feeling very defeated and frustrated. One of the biggest reasons seems to be that they haven't seen their scale weight move in a few days or even weeks. The biggest piece of advice that I can give in respect to this issue is to get rid of your scale (or at least put it in the back of your bathroom closet), get the measuring tape out, and measure yourself! The 3 biggest causes, at least in my opinion, that can cause your weight to plateau if you have recently begun keto and have started a new and more intense exercise routine are 1) water, 2) water, and 3) water.

    First off, many people get very excited about all the fun delicious things that you get to eat when you start out on this way of eating. These things include foods like bacon, sausage, deli meats, cheese and pepperoni. These things are all very high in sodium. If these are things that you may have not been eating before but have now decided to include in your diet, YOU WILL retain water. Be prepared for some bloat. Although it may sound counter-intuitive this can be remedied somewhat by drinking tons and tons of water. So drink up!

    Here is a BB.com article about water retention...
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/water.htm

    Secondly, if you have just started a whole new lifestyle that includes weightlifting or resistance training, be prepared for sore muscles! Along with the soreness will come water retention. Think of it almost like a blister. Your muscles will hold on to fluid as they heal. This can result in a weight fluctuation of 3 to 4 pounds. So do not let this discourage you. If you are pushing yourself in the gym and you are feeling it, any weight gain will be temporary. So don't let this phase you.

    Here is an article I found on the subject...
    http://www.personalpowertraining.net...e_soreness.htm

    Lastly, there is a strange phenomenon that occurs during many people's weight loss journey that I am pretty sure has no scientific explanation as of yet, or at least there is no real consensus on why exactly this happens. This is what keto guru Lyle Mac Donald refers to as squishy fat. Just before one is about to lose a good deal of fat, the fat cells are said to empty themselves of their contents and fill up with water. When the fat cells are good and ready they release the water and the dieter sees the initially masked fat loss.

    Here is a better explanation from Lyle.
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...uishy-fat.html

    Hopefully this will encourage any one who has become discouraged from seeing their scale weight halt dead in its tracks. This diet works so long as you give it a chance!

    Edit: I'd also like to add that weight can fluctuate greatly on a day to day basis for other reasons such as hormones, the weight of the food you've eaten, level of hydration, your surrounding climate (yes weather can cause a weight change), air travel, constipation, time of day, illness, sleep deprivation....the list goes on and on. Point is, weight loss or gain is not always linear and is not always predictable.
    Last edited by redheadlaw7; 11-11-2009 at 08:46 PM.
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  12. #12
    Registered User queloque's Avatar
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    I can't seem to get enough fats?

    This is a common post and I would personally say that fats is the easiest thing to get in keto.

    The easiest solution is putting a serving of fats with each meal. Roughly 14 grams of fat.
    These are straight fat foods with little or no protein and little or no carbs. Note Avocado has carbs but they are crossed out by the high fiber.

    Just look at the numbers. They are not precise depending on brands but they are very very close.

    Olive Oil - 14 grams of fat, 120 calories (1 tablespoon)
    Coconut Oil - 14 grams of fat, 120 calories (1 Tablespoon)
    Flax Oil - 14 grams of fat, 120 calories (1 tablespoon)
    Fish Oil - 14 grams of fat, 120 calories (1 tablespoon)

    Heavy whipped cream - 5 grams of fat, 50 calories (1 tablespoon)
    Coconut Milk - 9 grams of fat, 90 calories (1/2 cup)
    Sour Cream - 5 grams of fat, 50 calories (2 tablespoon)
    Mayo - 10 grams of fat, 100 calories (1 tablespoon)
    Salad Dressing (high fat dressing) - 6 grams of fat, 60 calories (1 tablespoon)


    Olives - 2.5 grams of fat, 25 calories (5 green olives)
    Avocado - 21 grams of fat, 227 calories (1 avocado)

    Almonds - 15 grams of fat, 160 calories (1 ounce or 22 nuts)


    So how do I use my fats?

    Flax Oil - Perfect in protein drinks
    Olive Oil - Perfect to top just about any food you cook or salads. Fried eggs go well.
    Coconut oil - Shallow Fry your eggs in coconut oil. Shallow Fry your chicken and all other meats in coconut oil. Taste great. Coconut oil gets hard under 76 degrees so not really ideal with protein drinks but add 1/2 to 1 tablespoon to your morning coffee.
    Fish oil - drinks, supplements, take straight with a tablespoon


    Heavy whipped creams - mix with your eggs and scramble. Goes great with protein drinks
    Coconut milk - mix with drinks and eggs. Make low carb muffins.
    Sour Cream - put with just about any meal you cook. Top your meats, salads, etc.
    Mayo and Salad dressing - perfect for tuna salad. Goes great with any meats to make a nice creamy dish. You don't need a lot, just one serving will be enough.

    Olives - supplements with any dinner your cook, salads.
    Avocado - Supplements with any dinner you cook or make guacamole if you cannot handle the plain taste of avocado.

    Almonds - I suggest 1 serving a day no more than 2 a day. Keep a can at work to cover any hunger pains between breakfast and lunch or if you skip lunch and don't feel like leaving your office. High in fiber so don't worry about the carbs. Especially if you only eat 1 or 2 servings. More than enough in a day and you don't have to eat them everyday.


    You should have no problem meeting your macros if you incorporate these oils in all of your meals. This does not include fats from your meats. So you will meet your fat macros. Also most protein drinks you make don't taste bad with two servings of oils. I personally put flax oil, cream and coconut milk in just one protein drink. They do not dominate the flavor of drinks. You could easily get 500 calories in one drink and mostly fat.


    Note: This will be updated.
    Last edited by queloque; 11-12-2009 at 11:50 AM.
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    Ketostix 101

    Question: What are Ketostix?
    Answer: Probably the most common tools used by ketogenic dieters are Ketostix (tm) or Diastix(tm), which measure the urinary concentrations of either ketones or ketones and glucoserespectively. Typically, they are used by Type I diabetics for whom the presence of high urinary ketones/glucose can indicate the start of a diabetic emergency.

    Question: What can Ketostix do?
    Answer: Ketostix (tm) can provide a rough measure of how many carbohydrates can be consumed while still maintaining ketosis. As long as trace ketosis is maintained, carbohydrates can be gradually added to the diet.

    Question: How does it measure ketones?
    Answer: Ketostix (tm) use the nitroprusside reaction, which reacts to the presence of acetoacetate, to indicate the concentration of urinary ketones. Depending on the concentrations of acetoacetate, the Ketostix (tm) react by turning various shades of purple with darker colors indicating greater concentrations.

    Question: What are acetoacetate?
    Answer: When ketone bodies are measured by way of urine concentration, acetoacetic acid, along with beta-hydroxybutyric acid (BHB), and acetone, is what is detected. This is done using dipsticks (Ketostix) coated in nitroprusside or similar reagents. Nitroprusside changes from pink to purple in the presence of acetoacetate, the conjugate base of acetoacetic acid, and the colour change is graded by eye.


    Question: There are different shade measurements What does ketostix tell me?
    Answer: Since Ketostix (tm) only register relative concentrations, rather than absolute amounts, changes in hydration state can affect the concentration of ketones which appear. A high water intake tends to dilute urinary ketone concentrations giving lighter readings.

    Question: So what can happens if I drink a lot of water and measure my ketones:
    Answer: high water intake may also dilute urinary ketone levels, making it more
    difficult to determine if one actually is in ketosis or not. Anecdotally, individuals who consume
    very large amounts of water tend to show very light levels of urinary ketones on the Ketostix (tm)


    Question: Does it matter if I show light shades of ketones vs Dark Shades on the ketostix?
    Answer: No. Ketostix (tm) are typically used to indicate that ones diet is truly inducing a state of ketosis. THATS IT! The problem is that Ketostix (tm) are a only an indirect way of measuring ketosis. All you need to know is that you are in ketosis. So light shade is just as good as a dark shade reading.

    Question: So what does it mean if my ketostix show very dark shades?
    Answer: ketosis is technically defined by the presence of ketones in the bloodstream (ketonemia). Ketones in the urine simply indicate an overproduction of ketones such that excess spill into the urine. So it is conceivable for someone to be in ketosis without showing urinary ketones. So when its darker you are more than likely overproducing ketones similar to taking too much Vitamin B. Your body won't use it and just pisses it out.

    Question: What happens if I measure after a high fat meal?
    Answer: Some will show higher urinary ketones after a high fat meal, suggesting that dietary fat is being converted to ketones which are then excreted. Consuming medium chain triglycerides (MCT?s) found primarly in Coconut oil has the same effect.

    Question: Are there other ways to show a good measurment of ketones using ketostix
    Answer: Some individuals seem to only register ketones on the stick after extensive aerobic exercise.

    Question: In general when do ketones have their highest concentration?
    Answer: there appear to be daily changes in ketone concentrations, caused by fluctuations in hormone levels. Generally ketone concentrations are smaller in the morning and larger in the evening, reaching a peak at midnight. Many individuals report high ketones at night but show no urinary ketones the next morning while others report the opposite.


    Question: How often should I check for ketones?
    Answer: No hard and fast rules can be given for the use of Ketostix (tm) except not to be obsessive about them. In the same way that the presence of ketones can be psychologically reassuring, the absence of ketones can be just as psychologically harmful. It is easy to mentally shortcircuit by checking the Ketostix (tm) all the time. Ideally I would recommend checking only after your weekend carb-up to see how quickly you get back into ketosis. After that, wait until after the next carb-up. No need to keep checking if you are certain you are eating 30 grams of carbs or less.

    Question: Is it true that you lose more fat with more concentrations of ketones?
    Answer: There is no data to support or refute it. BUT, ketones are made from the breakdown of fat in the liver. The number of calories lost in the urine as ketones amounts to 100 calories per day at most. There there is some partial truth to it, but what is 100 calories?

    Question: Some anectdotes say higher levels of urinary ketones seem to be indicative of slower fat loss, why?
    Answer: There is no research examining this phenomenon. A possible reason is this: high levels of ketones in the bloodstream raise insulin slightly and block the release of free fatty acids from fat cells. This seems to imply that higher levels of ketones will slow fat mobilization.

    Question: If I'm not showing any signs of ketones on my ketostix does this mean i'm not producing ketones?
    Answer: Again, please note that the lack of urinary ketones does not automatically mean that one does not have ketones in the bloodstream, simply that no excess are being excreted.

    Question: Do I need to use ketostix and if not how will I know i'm in ketosis?
    Answer: First stay below 30 grams of carbs. More than likely you are. Second, Ketostix (tm) seem to have their greatest use for individuals just starting the diet. After a
    period of time on a ketogenic diet, most individuals can ?feel? when they are in ketosis. Many
    individuals get a metallic taste in their mouth, or report a certain smell to their breath or urine, making Ketostix (tm) unnecessary.


    Question: Do ketones show different levels for men and women
    Answer: Women and children seem to show a higher concentration of ketones than men and this may be due to hormone levels.

    Sources: The Ketogenic Diet
    Last edited by queloque; 11-12-2009 at 11:40 AM.
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    Can I eat this on keto?

    First off, I would like to point out that when it comes to keto dieting no two people are exactly alike. Some people can get away with eating just about anything and others simply look at a piece of sugar free gum and stop losing weight. The best thing that you can do to determine what foods you can eat and still be successful on this diet is to first, start a food and exercise diary and keep track of everything that you put in your mouth and all of the extra activity you are adding into your day. Next, I would suggest that you take as many bodily measurements that you can and keep a diary of those, also. You may even want to take some pictures of yourself so that you have something to compare later on.

    When it comes to choosing the foods you eat, I would suggest, as a mother of two, that you start this diet as clean as simply as you can, meaning one or two weeks of eating meat, eggs, oil, and green leafy veggies. Then, much like a parent introduces new food into a baby's diet, you should slowly add new things one at a time to see how your body responds to them. This way, if your weight loss comes to a screeching halt or if your weight starts to climb, you don't have to do much guesswork when it comes to figuring out what may be the culprit. The reason why this is so helpful is because some people may have mild food allergies or sensitivities that they are unaware of. This can result in inflammation, water retention, or the inability to lose weight.

    The order I would introduce foods would be:

    1) start off with the basics as mentioned
    2) add in more colorful veggies like all colors of bell peppers and squash, onions in small amounts, mushrooms, etc. (avoid veggies high in sugar like corn and sugar snap peas)
    3) add in dairy products like cream and cheese (cheese tends to cause problems for people who have trouble eating anything aged)
    4) introduce nuts like almonds and cashews (or nut butters)
    5) next you'll be ready for peanuts (which techincally are not a nut but a legume) and then PB (natural tends to be lower carb)
    6) caffeine can be snuck in at this point or even earlier. If you are a caffeine addict and drink several cups of coffee a day, be forewarned that you may be experience insulin spikes which can cause cravings and make your blood sugar jump around. Most people can get away with having a few cups of coffee or even doing ECA stacks.
    7) lastly you can add in one of the more controversial food items, artificial sweeteners and sugar alcohols. This is an item that is varies greatly from person to person. Some can get away with adding these in without a problem. Well, no problem with continued weight loss. However, if you are one of these people these things will not be processed by your body and will usually cause a lot of....ahem... digestive discomfort. If you are one of the unfortunate ones like myself who cannot eat these things because they basically are treated by our bodies as if they were table sugar, then you will notice a stall in your weight loss and will probably experience more intense carb cravings and just like with too much caffeine, you may experience some spikes in blood sugar.

    If you manage to get all of these things into your diet and your weight loss continues, then more power to you! Have at it and enjoy yourself while eating all of these wonderful things. If you find that you stall after adding one, take it back out of your diet, give yourself some time to get it out of your system and then see if your weight loss continues.

    EDIT: The basis of this post is my reading and participating in multiple low carb and bodybuilding forums. Having seen hundreds and hundreds of dieters struggle with this very issue, I hope that this post can prevent any needless frustration for people just starting out on this diet. These are merely suggestions and may not hold true for everyone. It just seems to be the most common way and easiest way to weed out what may or may not work for you. If anyone disagrees I am open to constructive criticism and suggestions via PM. This just happens to be one of the biggest sources of frustration for a lot of dieters and is one of those subjects that doesn't necessarily have a lot of scientific data to support it. It is an area where "Your Mileage May Vary."
    Last edited by redheadlaw7; 11-12-2009 at 12:52 PM.
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    How do I count my calories?

    Yes, it's basic, but some people have trouble with this.

    Start by getting a notebook and writing down every single thing that goes in your mouth, including sugar-free gum and diet soda. Write down the amounts you are eating. Don't guess, you have to weigh or measure at this point.

    Now open a free account with www.fitday.com or www.myfitnesspal.com or one of the other calorie counting websites out there. Enter all your foods and let the website add them up for you. If there is something you eat a lot, you can enter it as a custom food.

    It's as simple as that. Do it regularly and don't lie to yourself, and you'll know where you stand.
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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    Can diet soda effect my weight loss while doing keto?

    Answer: For some yes and for some no. But at least understand the effects of acidic drinks and make your decision on your own.

    Acid sodas which is pretty much all of them effects your PH level which effects your Thyroids which effects your metabolic rate. Yes this includes energy drinks and coffee. So no one is telling you not to, just be aware of the effects of acidic drinks and acidic foods and how to respond to them. The below video is the best explanation on Diet soda and anything that is acidic. Take into account that Keto requires the consumption of a lot of acidic foods which are oils and meats so knowing this you should insure you get the proper vitamins and minerals from foods and supplements that are leeched from your body to compensate for a higher acidic diet.

    Last edited by queloque; 11-13-2009 at 11:58 AM.
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    Experiment

    A recap of the basics

    - Keto is high fat, moderate protein and low carb. 65% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs.
    - CKD requires a carb up every week
    - TKD is without weekly carb ups and carbs are consumed around the time of training.
    - It's recommended not to consume over 30g of carbs a day while trying to reach and maintain ketosis
    - To lose fat, calories should be kept below maintenance.
    - It is recommended to wait 2 weeks before doing your first carb up when starting the keto diet.
    - Ketones are NOT going to make you skinny. They are a benefit and assist in helping you to lose fat while maintaining muscle mass. The "calories in vs. calories out" will still apply.

    One more thing you must understand is that you are unique. Yes, we are all unique. When it comes to the keto diet, what might work for everyone else might not work for you.

    If you want to know if eating 20g of carbs in one meal will throw you out of ketosis, no one can tell you that. It is something you will have to find out on your own.

    If you want to know if eating less than the recommended amount of carbs on a carb up is good or bad, again, you must know your body and what it may or may not need during training the following week. The same is true for the amount of time you wish to carb up.

    Will consuming artificial sweeteners kick you out of ketosis? You will need to figure that out on your own.

    Will doing the CKD or TKD be more beneficial to you? That depends on YOUR training and what your body is telling you.


    EXPERIMENTATION is the key. You know your body best and after a few weeks on the keto diet i would recommend experimentation with foods, timing and training. Understand, the basics are still true, this is a high fat, moderate protein and low carb diet, but like i said we are all unique and what will work for some may not work for others.
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    How much protein do I need?

    From Lyle MacDonald's Body Recomposition Blog:

    Protein Requirements for Strength and Power Athletes

    Introduction


    Possibly one of the longest standing debates in sports nutrition (not that people donít argue about stuff constantly) is over protein requirements for athletes. Traditionally, there have been two primary and opposing views to this topic.

    In the first camp are mainstream nutrition types, usually registered dieticians who maintain that the RDA for protein is sufficient for all conditions, including individuals involved heavily in sports. Their bible, the RDA Handbook mirrors this stance. So what is the RDA? Currently itís set at 0.8 g/kg (0.36 g/lb) protein per day. For a 200 lb individual thatís a mere 72 grams of protein per day. I bet most of the people reading this eat that at a meal.

    As a sub-argument to what I wrote above, some will point out that, even if protein requirements in athletes are higher, since most strength athletes already eat more protein than the supposed requirements, there is no need to worry about it in the first place. That is, strength athletes already consume enough protein and neednít focus on trying to get more.

    At the other extreme are the athletes themselves who have long felt (and therefore argued) that high proteins are absolutely necessary for optimal results. Bodybuilders have traditionally used 1 g/lb (2.2 g/kg) as a baseline recommendation with others taking this level to 2 g/lb (4.4 g/kg) or sometimes even higher. Muscle magazines, usually with a vested interest in moving protein powder tend to promote high protein intakes with claims of athletes eating 800-1000 grams protein per day (a level only achievable with supplementation) being claimed by top bodybuilders.

    Whoís Right?

    Science nerds like me always want to see the research on the topic. Of course, if you know me at all, you know that Iíve read it all. To say that itís a bit mixed is an understatement and even researchers canít make up their damn minds, preferring to hold polite arguments with one another for months in scientific journals.

    Some research seems to clearly indicate an increased requirement for protein. But it uses a methodology (nitrogen balance) that is questionable at best, so the low-protein folks will shoot it down.

    Other research (done with low intensity aerobic work) suggests that training improves protein retention; that is, as athletes become more trained, their protein requirements may actually go down. But does research with lower intensity aerobic work apply to the kind of training a strength/power athlete is doing? Probably not, so the high protein researchers will shoot that down. Around and around it goes.

    Some research (again using a questionable methodology) suggests that athletes need more protein when they start a new or intensified training program but after a couple of weeks, protein requirements go back down. What happens if youíre always pushing your limits day in, day out, week in, week out? Nobody knows.

    Of course the impact of anabolic steroids on protein requirements is almost a complete unknown although, empirically, most who would argue that a natural bodybuilder only needs 1 g/lb daily would also argue that someone using anabolics needs about double that to maximize the effects of the drugs.

    A final problem is whatís being measured. Athletes want to know what will maximizes their performance, strength, power, speed, throwing, etc. Researchers invariably measure stuff of less relevance to athletes and coaches. Nitrogen balance, amino acid uptake, sometimes actual muscle growth is measured over the length of the study. Is the amount of protein needed to optimize performance different than whatís needed to maximize some aspect of muscular physiology?

    An added issue is that solely looking at skeletal muscle may be missing pathways of importance to athletes. Immune system, connective tissue synthesis and a host of other pathways use amino acids; presumably athletes will upregulate those pathways. Meaning that true protein requirements, if you only look at whatís going on in the muscle, may be under-estimating what athletes truly need to maximize every aspect of performance.

    The debate rages on and on and Iím not going togo into much more detail here about it. If you want to read about it in seemingly endless detail, I spent an entire chapter addressing both sides of the controversy in The Protein Book.

    Sufficed to say that, as is always the case, both sides have their research, both ends of the research can be criticized on some methodological grounds or another and I donít think researchers are going to stop arguing with one another any time soon.

    Reaching a Consensus
    Two researchers, named Tipton and Wolfe wrote a cool paper about this argument. In it they first detailed all of the stuff I just bored you with. At the end they gave their recommendations where they basically argued that

    * We donít know how much protein is required to optimize all of the potential pathways important to athletes.
    * We know that a protein intake of 1.4 g/lb (3.0 g/kg) isnít harmful and may have benefits that are too small to be measured in research
    * As long as eating lots of protein doesnít keep an athlete from eating too few of the other nutrients (carbs/fats), thereís no reason to not eat a lot. And there may be benefits.

    Essentially, a high protein intake wonít hurt an athlete (basically everything you may have read about the dangers of high protein intakes is nonsense), it may provide small benefits of importance to elite athletes and, at the end of the day athletes and coaches donít give a **** about pedantic scientific debates over amino acid metabolism that gives researchers and nerds like me a giant hardon. Admittedly, they didnít put it in exactly those terms but thatís the gist of it.

    So hereís my recommendation, strength/power athletes should aim for 1.5 g/lb protein per day (again, this is about 3.3 g/kg for the metrically inclined). So for a 200 lb strength/power athlete, thatís 300 grams of protein per day. For a 300 lber, thatís 450 grams per day. If youíre Jeff Lewis, I imagine your protein requirements are basically ĎAll of ití or perhaps ĎA cowí. Per day.

    Since most strength/power athletes have plenty high caloric requirements, this will still leave plenty of room for the other macros and, if nothing else, will ensure that protein intake is not limiting in any way. Iíd note that female athletes often restrict calories heavily (for both good and bad reasons) and it is possible for them to get into situations where protein ends up making up damn near all of their daily food intake. There is some evidence that female athletes can get by with less protein but Iím not going to get into that here; perhaps a later article for Elite Fitness can address that.

    Iíd add that athletes who are using anabolics may wish to take this even higher, 2 g/lb (4.4 g/kg) or possibly higher. Again, very little research here.

    I should address one other issue that always seems to come up about now which is whether to set protein requirements relative to lean body mass or total weight. There are some good arguments for both. In theory, using lean body mass probably makes the most sense, fat cells donít have a huge protein requirement. At the same time, problems in measuring LBM and the fact that a little bit too much protein is arguably superior to too little make total bodyweight more tenable. Or at least easier to use. Iíd only note that, for athletes carrying tremendous amounts of body fat (you know who you are), scaling protein intake back to take that into account may no be a bad idea. It may not be necessary but it can still be done.

    More Protein Issues

    Having looked at the issue of quantity, I want to talk briefly about issues of quality and variety. Frankly, the whole deal with protein quality has been blown way out of proportion by most folks. Unless youíre talking about folks eating small amounts of single ****ty quality proteins every day, itís just not that relevant. So yeah, for someone getting 30 grams of some piss quality grain as their only protein source, quality matters.

    When an athlete is eating 1.5 g/lb or more of high quality (read: animal source) proteins per day, it really doesnít. Now, yes, there are differences between proteins in terms of digestion speed (which is relevant for around workout nutrition) and other micronutrients (e.g. red meat has lots of zinc and iron, fatty fish has fish oils, etc.), amino acid can vary too (e.g. dairy proteins have more leucine than other sources) but unless you live on that one source, itís just not that critical an issue to worry about most of the time. Rather, I recommend that strength/power athletes try to obtain their daily protein from mixed sources every day. That way, any potential limitation of one protein will be fixed by the consumption of another protein. As well, although there isnít much research to base this on, I feel that consuming different protein sources at a given meal may be superior to single sources. Youíre getting slightly different amino acid patterns, digestion speeds, etc. Youíll see this reflected in the sample menus below.

    Of course, protein powders are always an option. I think they tend to have their greatest utility around training but they can be used for athletes on the go, or who are working endlessly during the day and who need to get protein in large amounts quickly. For various reasons (discussed, of course, in my book), I prefer milk protein isolate (a mix of whey and casein) for most applications. Fast digesting proteins such as whey are most appropriate before or during training (I prefer MPI post-workout).
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    Relationships Between Carbohydrates and Fat

    This will help you to understand why the ketogenic diet works so well and the mis-conceptions made by society regarding fat intake.

    Excess dietary carbohydrates can be converted to fat in the liver through a process called de novo lipognesis (DNL). However short term studies show that DNL does not contribute significantly to fat gain in humans. As long as muscle and liver glycogen stores are not completely filled, the body is able to store or burn off excess dietary carbohydrates. Of course this process occurs at the expense of limiting fat burning, meaning that any dietary fat which is ingested with a high carbohydrate intake is stored as fat.

    Under certain circumstances, excess dietary carbohydrate can go through DNL, and be stored in fat cells although the contribution to fat gain is thought to be minimal. Those circumstances occur when muscle and liver glycogen levels are filled and there is an excess of carbohydrate being consumed.

    The most likely scenario in which this would occur would be one in which an individual was inactive and consuming an excess of carbohydrates/calories in their diet. As well, the combination of inactivity with a very high carbohydrate AND high fat diet is much worse in terms of fat gain. With chronically overfilled glycogen stores and a high carbohydrate intake, fat utilization is almost completely blocked and any dietary fat consumed is stored.

    This has led some authors to suggest an absolute minimization of dietary fat for weight loss. The premise is that, since incoming carbohydrate will block fat burning by the body, less fat must be eaten to avoid storage. The ketogenic diet approaches this problem from the opposite direction. By reducing carbohydrate intake to minimum levels, fat utilization by the body is maximized.

    Reference: Lyle McDonald's, The ketogenic Diet
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    coffee and the CKD??

    I have just begun the second week of my CKD diet, with yesterday (appropriately planned Thanksgiving) being my carb-up day. So far, so good...although, I do have a huge sweet tooth which has been a battle. Another downfall is coffee, which I like to try often.

    I read an earlier post that spoke about diet sodas and other acidic drinks and how they affect your body/diet. How does coffee fit into the CKD diet? Obviously someone who orders a coffee with whole milk and regular sugar would have bad results no matter what diet you were on...but is a skim milk/sugar free coffee okay for the CKD diet??

    Thanks
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    Cailin Deas Eileen's Avatar
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    Black coffee is fine. No skim milk or sugar. Cream is fine as long as it fits your calories.

    Some people use black coffee and coconut oil as a pre-workout boost.
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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    Anti-Ketogenic and ketogenic effect to body when consuming Fats, Carbs and Protein

    Carbohydrates

    Carbohydrate is 100% anti-ketogenic. As carbohydrates are digested, they enter the
    bloodstream as glucose, raising insulin and lowering glucagon, which inhibits ketone body
    formation. In fact, any dietary change that raises blood glucose is anti-ketogenic.

    Translation: when you consume carbs you produce glucose 100% of the time. So when you eat 100 grams of Carbs you will produce 100 grams of glucose[/b]

    Protein

    Protein has both ketogenic effects (46%) and anti-ketogenic effects (58%). This reflects
    the fact that 58% of dietary protein will appear in the bloodstream as glucose, raising insulin and inhibiting ketogenesis.

    Translation: for every 100 grams of protein you eat, 58% of it will convert to glucose. excessive protein intake will generate too much glucose, impairing or preventing ketosis.

    Fat

    Fat is primarily ketogenic (90%) but also has a slight anti-ketogenic effect (10%). This
    represents the fact that ten percent of the total fat grams ingested will appear in the
    bloodstream as glucose (via conversion of the glycerol portion of triglycerides). If 180 grams of fat are oxidized (burned) per day, this will provide 18 grams of glucose from the conversion of glycerol.

    Translation, for every 100 grams of fat you consume, expect to produce 10 grams of glucose.

    Alcohol

    Although alcohol is not represented in the above equation, having no direct effect on ketosis, alcohol intake will have an impact on the depth of ketosis and the amount of body fat used by the body.

    Source: The Ketogenic Diet
    Last edited by queloque; 12-09-2009 at 11:01 AM.
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    Signs as to whether you have good insulin sensitivity or not.

    I was curious why some people feel sluggish and bloated after carbups while others including myself often feel pumped and it appears Lyles addresses this.

    According to Lyles McDonald for those who don't know who wrote, The Ketogenic Diet. He states the following.

    "In practice, there are signs as to whether you have good insulin sensitivity or not and possibly whether you over-secrete insulin. Here's two very simple questions to ask yourself regarding your response to diet.

    1. On high-carbohydrate intakes, do you find yourself getting pumped and full or sloppy and bloated? If the former, you have good insulin sensitivity; if the latter, you dont.

    2. When you eat a large carbohydrate meal, do you find that you have steady and stable energy levels or do you get an energy crash/sleep and get hungry about an hour later? If the former, you probably have normal/low levels of insulin secretion; if the latter, you probably tend to over-secrete insulin which is causing blood glucose to crash which is making you sleepy and hungry.

    I consider it most likely that superior bodybuilders couple excellent insulin sensitivity with low insulin secretion in response to a meal. This would tend to explain why bodybuilders have often gravitated towards high carb/low-fat diets and been successful on them.

    At the same time, mediocre bodybuilders frequently get less than stellar results from that same diet. Lowering carbs and increasing dietary fat seems to be more effective in that case some of the low-carb bulking strategies out there probably work better for those individuals. The same goes for fat loss. Cyclical low-carb diets such as my Ultimate Diet 2.0 or the more generic cyclical ktogenic diet (CKD) described in my first book The Ketogenic Diet allow such individuals to briefly enjoy the benefits of heightened muscular insulin sensitivity."
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    Originally Posted by queloque View Post

    1. On high-carbohydrate intakes, do you find yourself getting pumped and full or sloppy and bloated? If the former, you have good insulin sensitivity; if the latter, you dont.

    2. When you eat a large carbohydrate meal, do you find that you have steady and stable energy levels or do you get an energy crash/sleep and get hungry about an hour later? If the former, you probably have normal/low levels of insulin secretion; if the latter, you probably tend to over-secrete insulin which is causing blood glucose to crash which is making you sleepy and hungry.
    "
    Greetings,
    I believe I fall in the category of feeling sluggish/hungry after a carb meal. What does that mean to me if I decide to eat to achieve Keto state? I want to lose the final 10lbs of fat.

    Thank you,
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    It means keto should work for you. If you don't react well to carbs, then you'll thrive on a low carb diet. Someone who is bursting with energy after eating carbs may not enjoy ketosis.
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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    That is a really nice thread and I've been reading a lot on Ketogenic diets the past few days. But I'm still a bit lost in all this over all the contradicting researches and advice.

    I'm looking to gain lean muscle mass while maintaining a low bodyfat percentage. I'm undecided between CKD and TKD but leaning more towards CKD. What I'm mostly afraid of are long term health concerns... especially since I have a present heart condition (high blood pressure) and a family history of kidney stones. I've read about this research that says the risk of kidney stone : (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...etogenic+risks).

    Would this be applicable to CKD as well? Is the risk of kidney stones only there if you don't consume enough veggies?
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    I didn't hear no bell! Rap_Rocky's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JFDT View Post
    That is a really nice thread and I've been reading a lot on Ketogenic diets the past few days. But I'm still a bit lost in all this over all the contradicting researches and advice.

    I'm looking to gain lean muscle mass while maintaining a low bodyfat percentage. I'm undecided between CKD and TKD but leaning more towards CKD. What I'm mostly afraid of are long term health concerns... especially since I have a present heart condition (high blood pressure) and a family history of kidney stones. I've read about this research that says the risk of kidney stone : (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...etogenic+risks).

    Would this be applicable to CKD as well? Is the risk of kidney stones only there if you don't consume enough veggies?
    If you have a current heart/kidney condition, I recommend talking to your physician (if you haven't already) about starting a ketogenic diet at all, let alone CKD or TKD.
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    not a fan of green leafies

    what if i'm not a fan of alot of green leafiies.i mean i can do spinach 2-3x wek. can i sub green beans and broccoli.

    the problem with most "diets" are they are restrictive. this doesn't seem to be except for the bread and white flours,rice, things like that. which is fine. gotta break the diet mt.dew habit. i read thru some of the details. my mind goes blank when reading really scientific articles and such. should i carb up after a workout? and should i have a carb load for the last meal 1x or 2x week. i need simple answers.

    thanks.
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    Whey shake after a normal workout, one scoop whey and about 10g of dextrose.

    One carb-up per week, no more. Carb-up to be proportional to your needs. If you have a lot of fat to lose, keep the carb-up short and ultra clean.
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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    Is it healthy for a seventeen year old to do a keto diet?
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