Let's discuss safety of 2-Diphenylmethylpyrrolidine (Possible drug found in SX )

[Pho3NiX]

To recap 2-Diphenylmethylpyrrolidine is the identification of the drug found in SX under the proprietary blend of 4-aminoslim as per the chemistry work of beej and PA

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Diphe...hylpyrrolidine)

I wanted to create one thread where one could find all the available safety info of that compound free of all drama (even if I understand very little is available). We are still waiting of official word of AX while they are doing test on their side too.

This is what I expect in this thread

1) Serious data (if there's any available)

2) Translation into layman term

3) Other genuine safety question.


Just to clarify:
As of best knowledge for now .. not there's no amphetamine or meth in SX.

-------

I might start with a quote from Ptto and a link to the serious thread at blueligth

A comprehensive compilation of reported effects and symptoms:

- 12+ hours of appetite eradication
- extremely increased "mental energy"
- extremely increased drive to work
- insomina
- slight euphoria
- significant anxiogenic effects
- dry mouth
- dose-dependent teeth clinching / grinding
- hypervigilance
- tachycardia

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthrea...67#post7529667


I'll add more information as I find them

[Pho3NiX]

Possible cardiovascular toxixity

http://jmt.pennpress.org/strands/jmt...03_167_169.pdf

(all the post is a quote, none are from me but the selection of paragraph to quote, this is for D2PM and not 2-DPMP (again they differ by one OH), If i quoted to much feel free to adjust)


Case Report: A male patient with no risk factors for ischemic heart disease, presented to our emergency department with agitation and chest pain characteristic of ischemia following the ingestion of two units of ?Head Candy.? He improved with oral diazepam over a period of 12 hours and there was no biochemical evidence of myocardial damage. Serum analysis demonstrated the presence
of diphenylprolinol (diphenyl-2-pyrrolidinemethanol [D2PM]) and glaucine at concentrations of 0.17 mg/L and 0.10 mg/L, respectively. No other recreational drugs were detected in an extensive toxicological screen of blood and urine samples.


Discussion: This is the first reported case of confirmed toxicity associated with recreational use of diphenylprolinol in combination with glaucine. In our view, this case provides further support for the need for a systematic approach to toxicological screening of patients with recreational drug toxicity to identify emerging drugs and provide evidence for legislative authorities to assist in revising the legal status of recreational drugs.


CASE REPORT (long)

A 21-year-old male nonsmoker with no significant past medical
history arrived following ingestion of 3 tablets of ?Head Candy?
purchased in a local street shop. After ingestion, he felt mildly
euphoric for several hours, but as the effects were wearing off he
had two ?sniffs? of ?poppers? (usually n-butyl nitrite, isobutyl
nitrite or a mixture of the two). Approximately 1 hour later he
became dizzy and developed right-sided chest pain and associated
right-arm heaviness, consistent with ischemic chest pain, which
lasted for 1 hour. He went to the emergency department (ED)
approximately 2 hours after the chest discomfort resolved. He
was not on any regular medications, there was no family history
of note, and although he was a regular user of ?herbal highs?,
there was no previous use of *******

On review by the Clinical Toxicology team the
following morning, he was asymptomatic

A patent application for D2PM reported that both the R()
and S() isomers of D2PM have been shown to have activity at
the ******* binding site on the dopamine transporter protein
[10]. This patent application suggests that these molecules may
be useful in treating ******* addiction, since although they bind
to this ******* binding site with comparable Kibinding to *******,
the Kiuptake is significantly higher, suggesting that they have little
biological activity.

[Pho3NiX]

http://www.tciamerica.com/catalog/it...clang=en&cip=1

Well TCI America sell 2-DPMP as a proline analog

Prolines and its analogs
D3185 (2R,5R)-2,5-Diphenylpyrrolidine
D3186 (2S,5S)-2,5-Diphenylpyrrolidine
D3803 (R)-(+)-2-(Diphenylmethyl)pyrrolidine
D2365 (R)-(+)-alpha,alpha-Diphenyl-2-pyrrolidinemethanol
[...]

110$ / gram ....

[neuron]

Keep in mind, one of the metabolites (if not the ONLY metabolite) of 2-diphenylmethylpyrrolidine is its hydroxylated metabolite diphenylprolinol. One of the key features of peripheral adrenergic (alpha and beta) activity is a hydroxyl in the beta-position, which explains the apparent cardiotoxicity.

[DR_P]

good stuff.
If you read the other thread on this substance you will find more data from rc drug forums including a 'study' made by dutch smartshop. Result: substance was dropped because of too many adverse efects, especially cardiovascular effects.


On top of that, if this drug is a DAT NAT inhibitor, then it might be associated with some of the known psychotogenic effects, it might case cerebrovacular spasms, ultimately leading to cerebral strokes (thx to neuron who pointed this out), it might accelerate atherosclerosis, it might lead to skyrocketing cortisol levels, and it might impair memory and it might have neurotoxic effects. Did i mention that it might cause cardial arrhythmia and increase blood pressure.
All these effects are absolutely possible, however, nobody can tell their frequency and severity, since there are Zero clinical studies, let alone post marketing seurveillance data on it.

[Pho3NiX]

I'll add this google custom search

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&c...%3Ayo-c3aa2fy4

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&c...%3Ayo-c3aa2fy4

tons of usage report... smoked ingested etc

[LIVE_FAST_]

this is useful info.

[Pho3NiX]

Keep in mind, one of the metabolites (if not the ONLY metabolite) of 2-diphenylmethylpyrrolidine is its hydroxylated metabolite diphenylprolinol.

So in english ... when you digest 2-DPMP you can naturally form the other drug
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenylprolinol wich have shown cardiovascular toxicity

is a hydroxyl in the beta-position, which explains the apparent cardiotoxicity.

Can I ask how the hydroxyl in beta position explain the cardiotoxicity ?
It's not exactly a one-two punch for me...

Does it have anything to do with sympathomimetic features ?

[EMISGOD]

good stuff.
If you read the other thread on this substance you will find more data from rc drug forums including a 'study' made by dutch smartshop. Result: substance was dropped because of too many adverse efects, especially cardiovascular effects.


On top of that, if this drug is a DAT NAT inhibitor, then it might be associated with some of the known psychotogenic effects, it might case cerebrovacular spasms, ultimately leading to cerebral strokes (thx to neuron who pointed this out), it might accelerate atherosclerosis, it might lead to skyrocketing cortisol levels, and it might impair memory and it might have neurotoxic effects. Did i mention that it might cause cardial arrhythmia and increase blood pressure.
All these effects are absolutely possible, however, nobody can tell their frequency and severity, since there are Zero clinical studies, let alone post marketing seurveillance data on it.

Since it strikes me that this particular element is most similar to the street drug "crank", I think that is where I would look if I were interested in making comparisons. There is a great deal of thought among users that usage of this drug is preferable to others, such as coke, because they believe crank (either crystal or liquid meth -- the term seems to be applied to them both about equally, though I'd look more to crystal, since the liquid is not particularly stable over time) is muscle-sparing in that it will trigger the body to burn fat for the vast amounts of energy, nervous and otherwise, that it consumes while under the influence of the drug.

All of the things Dr. P has mentioned have clinically been noted repeatedly in crank users and it additionally is highly destructive of nerve endings. It is also highly addictive, an aspect which I believe would need to be modulated in order to be useful as a dietary supplement. The one question I would have is the cortisol levels, unless they are ineffectual due to the body consuming more mass than the body's ability to attempt to modulate the caloric expenditure. Too much of it and the neurotoxic effects render dopamine and serotonin able to be transmitted but not received. This would also need to be modulated as would the typical tendency towards violence of those coming off of the drug.

This is asking a great deal of any supplement company to try to lessen or negate entirely the incredibly stunning side effects of this particular drug, but those who are interested in safety as well as long-term implications, I strongly advise you to educate yourself on the street drug which it may or may not be patterned after, but which it mostly strongly resembles chemically...at least in my view.

[johnt12]

what's the best way of fighting coming off this? Going off cold turkey meaning no caffeine or little by little caffeine each day?

[neuron]

Can I ask how the hydroxyl in beta position explain the cardiotoxicity ?
It's not exactly a one-two punch for me...

Drugs which possess a beta-hydroxyl tend to bind/activate adrenergic receptors.

[Recawn]

what's the best way of fighting coming off this? Going off cold turkey meaning no caffeine or little by little caffeine each day?

The caffeine in SX isnt the issue here, it's the "mystery compound" which appears to be 2-DPMP. If you don't have any carido or cognitive issues then going off cold turkey is fine. If you do have any issues since using SX then see a GP.

[Pho3NiX]

Drugs which possess a beta-hydroxyl tend to bind/activate adrenergic receptors.

Just to finish the logic to the heart...

Those drug push the body to make more Adrenaline which increase the heart beat which is what you call cardiovascular toxicity ... Is that correct or there's something else ?

[Pho3NiX]

Since it strikes me that this particular element is most similar to the street drug "crank"

Can you clarify on this ?
I tried searching for it but what i have found is that crank is a low grade meth wich is quite different from what we have here

what's the best way of fighting coming off this? Going off cold turkey meaning no caffeine or little by little caffeine each day?

Unless you have ADD/ADHD or any other trouble and self-medicamented yourself with SX you shoud be fine. There's been one report of amphetamine like withdrawal reaction on AM. Just to be on the safe side try to stop cold turkey and if anything go wrong take half a cap and go slowly.

[neuron]

Just to finish the logic to the heart...

Those drug push the body to make more Adrenaline which increase the heart beat which is what you call cardiovascular toxicity ... Is that correct or there's something else ?

No, I mean the drug itself binds and activates adrenergic receptors - much like endogenous epinephrine would do. The heart has a great propensity for adrenergic stimulation (pos. inotropism).

[Blackjackcat]

Great thread, a lot of interesting info.

[johnt12]

Can you clarify on this ?
I tried searching for it but what i have found is that crank is a low grade meth wich is quite different from what we have here



Unless you have ADD/ADHD or any other trouble and self-medicamented yourself with SX you shoud be fine. There's been one report of amphetamine like withdrawal reaction on AM. Just to be on the safe side try to stop cold turkey and if anything go wrong take half a cap and go slowly.

Thanks for the reassurance....I stopped 3 days ago it seems like I am having minor withdrawal symptoms. But really, I can't tell if these are just minor panic attacks after hearing about this situation. Either way I am probably just overreacting.

[EMISGOD]

Can you clarify on this ?
I tried searching for it but what i have found is that crank is a low grade meth wich is quite different from what we have here

Like all street drugs, it varies in quality, depending on the source. Crank/ice/methamphetamine has been around a long time, well over a century and people have been trying to use it, or its derivations (which this is arguably one of), since that time. It is also arguably the first "designer stimulant".

Like everyone, my guess is based on conjecture, but in poking around in the various research that has been assembled on this particular item, it is most reminiscent to me of crystal meth, which is reasonable, given the aforementioned reputation it carries for muscle-sparing, though I'm not convinced this is a well-founded or even accurate reputation for it to have. It might be closer overall to one of the ADHD drugs available out there, which themselves bear a certain resemblance to methamphetamine.

Keep in mind that this is my very unscientific appraisal and if you wish to dismiss it on that basis, I will not object.

[untouchabledfx]

when you refer to SX you are talking about Stimulant X correct?

[DR_P]

due to the long and sustained action of this drug, and its proposed 'partial agonist' mode of action at DAT NAT, neither addiction nor severe withdrawal symptoms should be too much of an issue. Hence its proposed use for the treatment of ******* addiction.

However, in case that this what i just said is correct, propensity for addiction and withdrawal most likely will depend largely on the dose. This is based on the observation that high doses much closer resemble amphetamine like effects and might thus lead to similae adverse effects.

[Fitzwell]

Thanks for the reassurance....I stopped 3 days ago it seems like I am having minor withdrawal symptoms. But really, I can't tell if these are just minor panic attacks after hearing about this situation. Either way I am probably just overreacting.

Ya, I am sure your mind plays a large role in it. Many people started reporting hypochondriac like symptoms within hours of hearing of this possible mystery compound. Not saying that this is you or that there aren't legitimate symptoms for some, but it is definitely in human nature to start "feeling" things once our brain tells us that we should/could.

[fitnfirm]

Ya, I am sure your mind plays a large role in it. Many people started reporting hypochondriac like symptoms within hours of hearing of this possible mystery compound. Not saying that this is you or that there aren't legitimate symptoms for some, but it is definitely in human nature to start "feeling" things once our brain tells us that we should/could.

I agree, power of suggestion.

[DR_P]

I agree, power of suggestion.

this works in the opposite direction as well. many people might have neglected apparent symptoms or suppressed to report them because all the good bros and the mob told them that everything is safe and that it does not cause any problems.

Actually, wasn't a certain individual (wink wink) quick to shoot on anybody who dared to say anything potentially negative? ("jealous competitors" or "drama queens" or "people who want to get known for saving teh world" (you remember kathy?))....



But back on topic. DAT-NAT inhibitors such as ******* (and diphenylprolinol?) have the ability to exacerbate or to trigger psychoses.

Here some recent anecdotal feedback on that:

SX put me in the hospital back in May and I went through psychosis which was the worst thing that has ever happened to me. It's obvious why they wanted the forum pulled because I posted about my experience and some reps said it was because I mixed it with green tea and TTA. I tried to warn the company about my experience but they disregarded my concerns. The FDA has all my information. The thing that pissed me off the most is that AX didn't take anything I said seriously and now 4 months later if it's so safe why have they had to pull it off the market? I just didn't want what happened to me to happen to someone else. Whatever is in SX does not affect everyone the same. I had been on Celexa for 10 years which lowered my dopamine production and taking SX may have shot it through the roof making me psychotic after taking it for 6 weeks. I felt so great the first few weeks that it seemed like the stuff was the best thing I had ever taken. I didn't know anything in it could screw me up.

I've seen several doctors since my experience and the conclusion is still that I experienced an amphetamine induced psychosis. (reps flamed me for mentioning this). I never got a refund either like promised on the money back gurantee - my wife threw the rest of the product in the trash when I was in the hospital. I was on my second bottle.

I used to use stims like ECA very heavily in the past and never had any reaction from them. This experience was a first in my entire life and a direct result of SX. It might have been safe for some people but if it lands someone in the hospital with psychosis and the company ignores the claims then I don't think they are going to get off that easy on this one.

Do a google search on Slim Xtreme and psychosis - I had posted a review back in May telling about my psychosis on Bulk Nutrition and it got copied to several other sites. It's not like there weren't any red flags about this stuff. AX ignored it from the start.

I probably won't be checking back here to answer any other questions but if you want to know more specifics feel free to PM me.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ml#post2145737

[Blackjackcat]

I agree, power of suggestion.

If AX would just come out with something about the product, maybe we would be able to figure out what are true symptoms and what is not. At this point, they have said nothing, which shows me what kind of company they are.

[Peter LeDrew]

Ya, I am sure your mind plays a large role in it. Many people started reporting hypochondriac like symptoms within hours of hearing of this possible mystery compound. Not saying that this is you or that there aren't legitimate symptoms for some, but it is definitely in human nature to start "feeling" things once our brain tells us that we should/could.

I agree, power of suggestion.

Often people don't connect the dots until after the fact when it all makes sense. Anyways, you fnf are still here defending AX for some reason. You can't speak for everyone else with a post like that saying it is all power of suggestion. I am after finding many older posts here and elsewhere showing people complain of the sides listed above in this thread as well as many more. Some even had threads on their experience and felt ill from using it and this was before it was discussed of what was in the product.

A comprehensive compilation of reported effects and symptoms:

- 12+ hours of appetite eradication
- extremely increased "mental energy"
- extremely increased drive to work
- insomina
- slight euphoria
- significant anxiogenic effects
- dry mouth
- dose-dependent teeth clinching / grinding
- hypervigilance
- tachycardia


I have also posted of my increased heart rate much above normal while running here before it was mentioned what was in SX. Using a highly accurate Garmin heart rate monitor, my heart rate was more than 10bpm higher while already at a high level of work... 170-175bpm being my usual avg for the intensity over 10km, it was up to 180-190bpm and I didn't have a good run at all... feeling overheated, etc...

If you want to talk about placebo or power of suggestion then I was expecting it to IMPROVE my time and help me in my run for energy, etc... like many energy products do, caffeine, ephedra, 1,3 Dimeth, etc.. Obviously this did not and there was little question whenever I ran or worked out and was hoping SX helped my performance... It was the reason I bought it actually. I don't see why anyone would want a supplement to give them energy that would decrease their performance. Many took SX under the understanding it was safe and expected it to help them in some form which is why they bought it, but have posted well before this past week of their negative side effects. There is little doubt from everything that has been said that SX can have negative effects beyond power of suggestion... these are real and many questions need to be addressed by AX. Likely there are many, many people out there using SX now who have no idea this could be dangerous and there doesn't seem to be anyone who cares.

[neuron]

But back on topic. DAT-NAT inhibitors such as ******* (and diphenylprolinol?) have the ability to exacerbate or to trigger psychoses.

Even worse - DAT inhibitors are known to create heavily oxidized (ROS rich) environments in the synapse which damages the cellular membrane and idiopathically triggers cell suicide (i.e. self-causing parkinsonians).

[EMISGOD]

when you refer to SX you are talking about Stimulant X correct?

Slim Xtreme

[Peter LeDrew]

Slim Xtreme

Slime Xtreme?

[th3_original]

I agree, power of suggestion.

I want to know why you are so hell-bent on defending AX.

Here's where the situation is right now - NO ONE FCUKING KNOWS. But you can't tell me that AX pulling the plug on producing this is sending any kind of positive message about their assertions that SX is safe.

You're not an AX rep, yet you constantly defend the company like you are. You want us to give them the 'benefit of the doubt'??? They should give their customers a little more security than 'it's safe, you're all wrong'. They have done NOTHING to prove that this is safe.

As a matter of fact, Big Smith said 'a couple of days' MAX for their responses. Well, that time frame has come and gone. And guess what? NOTHING from the company.

Don't sit here and say that these people are being 'hypochondriacs'. How many times does someone develop a cough and say 'Oh, it's just a cold' when it's something much more severe?

You can't put the puzzle together until you have all the pieces. Maybe these people overlooked the way they felt. Maybe they thought it was just this, or just that. Who knows. All I know is that until AX gives anyone a reason to believe otherwise, people should stop insinuating that it's in people's heads. AX is responsible for putting these thoughts in people's heads by remaining silent on a VERY big deal.

/rant.

[Ericisfly]

I agree, power of suggestion.

i am trying to figure out what this product is about and everytime you are defending them. I took this product and now its pulled, what am I suppose to think? you say you say neutral but any claim that this product may have negative effects there you are. How involved are you with this company? I thought you were just a rep online then offline its a whole different life but it seems I am wrong. I am waiting for AX response but it doesn't seem its coming anytime soon. Your responses are definitely making me rage. At least these guys are coming up with answers that they are trying to back up. If this product could have toxic effects, I want to ****ing know.