Do you need to keep shoulder blades retracted?

[solid_intensity]

For movements such as the pulldown, pullup, or row? Or can you relax that and contract/retract it when going through the concentric portion of the exercise?

[J_Bo]

I definately prefer to keep the shoulderblades pulled together throughout the entire movement.

[RH08]

I definately prefer to keep the shoulderblades pulled together throughout the entire movement.

x2
It feels more normal to me that way

[solid_intensity]

I personally find it not as natural to do it that way. But I was taught to always retract it from personal training classes. But they also told me not to go below 90degrees while squatting which is crap as well.

So now I'm not sure, I think you end up losing strength in those muscles because they're only 'holding' their position not assisting in the pull. I need more responses on this.....

[microrahsheen]

I personally find it not as natural to do it that way. But I was taught to always retract it from personal training classes. But they also told me not to go below 90degrees while squatting which is crap as well.

So now I'm not sure, I think you end up losing strength in those muscles because they're only 'holding' their position not assisting in the pull. I need more responses on this.....

For rowing movements, especially pullups and pulldowns, you want to keep your shoulders in a protected position. If you don't keep the shoulder blades retracted and depressed (I believe that is the correct term), you open up the RC's to injury.

One thing you have to remember about rowing exercises, also, is that you will usually be holding the muscles actually being worked in a static contraction for the best results. If you think about a deadlift, you get the back involved by retracting the shoulders throughout the movement.

You really only move the shoulders during....well....shrugging movements.

[Cgb6810]

For movements such as the pulldown, pullup, or row? Or can you relax that and contract/retract it when going through the concentric portion of the exercise?

On pulldowns you should be stretching at the top of the movement. Let the weight pull your shoulders/arms up as much as possible. Your thighs should be pressed up against the pads when stretching (if your using enough weight). When you pull down squeeze the shoulder blades together. Its very important to get that stretch if you want to build a wide back. This is true on most back excersizes.

[bigash50]

On pulldowns you should be stretching at the top of the movement. Let the weight pull your shoulders/arms up as much as possible. Your thighs should be pressed up against the pads when stretching (if your using enough weight). When you pull down squeeze the shoulder blades together. Its very important to get that stretch if you want to build a wide back. This is true on most back excersizes.

^^Very sound advice Bud.

What is stated above when sqeezing the shoulders together at the bottom of the rep fully contracts the lats.

[MedicineWheel]

I am wondering how exactly you guys do rows while keeping your scapulae retracted and depressed the entire time? Thats a lot like doing a squat without bending your knees.

[klen]

When pulling myself up I always try to imagine squeezing a tennis ball between my shoulder blades.

[Dominik]

Maybe keeping them retracted is "safer" but I'm not convinced it's more effective. I always aim for a full stretch at the bottom of a back exercise and let my shoulders drift forward to do that, and then focus on squeezing everything back there at the top.

I mean you're typically looking to achieve two things with pulling movements. Work the lats and target the mid-upper back (traps, rhomboids, etc.) The specific movement which targets the latter is scapular retraction, and if you've got everything retracted the whole time, how are you working it? Isometrically? You'll hardly be rowing enough weight to achieve much that way--you'd need deadlift/rack pull kind of resistance.

[solid_intensity]

Maybe keeping them retracted is "safer" but I'm not convinced it's more effective. I always aim for a full stretch at the bottom of a back exercise and let my shoulders drift forward to do that, and then focus on squeezing everything back there at the top.

I mean you're typically looking to achieve two things with pulling movements. Work the lats and target the mid-upper back (traps, rhomboids, etc.) The specific movement which targets the latter is scapular retraction, and if you've got everything retracted the whole time, how are you working it? Isometrically? You'll hardly be rowing enough weight to achieve much that way--you'd need deadlift/rack pull kind of resistance.

Yeah this is how I feel.

[solid_intensity]

bump, need more input.

[Leenad]

Never tried retracting them, it was way more natural to move them and I never even thought about it.

[90redlx]

Maybe keeping them retracted is "safer" but I'm not convinced it's more effective. I always aim for a full stretch at the bottom of a back exercise and let my shoulders drift forward to do that, and then focus on squeezing everything back there at the top.

I mean you're typically looking to achieve two things with pulling movements. Work the lats and target the mid-upper back (traps, rhomboids, etc.) The specific movement which targets the latter is scapular retraction, and if you've got everything retracted the whole time, how are you working it? Isometrically? You'll hardly be rowing enough weight to achieve much that way--you'd need deadlift/rack pull kind of resistance.

Agreed. Especially on rows. Look at a rowing team. They don't sit there, hold there shoulders back and keep their back upright when they are rowing. They lean foward going for the full stretch every time. Granted they are not going for size, but the principals are the same and I think they know what they are doing. Just my opinion.

[crofty22]

i had a rotator cuff injury and i had to force myself to learn how to keep my shoulder blades retracted while doing exercises, it took me months to build up the strength ... doing it this way is much healthier for the shoulders , even if it is not optimal for muscle growth

[Defiant1]

For movements such as the pulldown, pullup, or row? Or can you relax that and contract/retract it when going through the concentric portion of the exercise?

*edit for clarity*

No, you do not need to keep them retracted.

Yes, you can relax and contract.

In fact, you likely get better lat work from NOT doing it. Shoulder blade flexibility contributes a lot to back width.

If you are training your traps in particular, it might benefit you to avoid pre-stretching the lats.

[The Raw Body]

The machine-like retract then pull back motion is out nowadays-I don't think too many therapists are doing them any longer. I've done all that before too. Retractions by themselves are a great exercise, but do the rows and the pulldowns with a natural movement. The body's movements are fluid and should be trained as such.

[solid_intensity]

i had a rotator cuff injury and i had to force myself to learn how to keep my shoulder blades retracted while doing exercises, it took me months to build up the strength ... doing it this way is much healthier for the shoulders , even if it is not optimal for muscle growth

Well maybe you never strengthened your rotator cuffs, thats why. I don't see how it would injure them, it's a natural movement.

[solid_intensity]

The machine-like retract then pull back motion is out nowadays-I don't think too many therapists are doing them any longer. I've done all that before too. Retractions by themselves are a great exercise, but do the rows and the pulldowns with a natural movement. The body's movements are fluid and should be trained as such.

Yeah I do the retract then pull back still, but thats only for the mind to muscle connection, to make sure i know I'm squeezing my blades, but I don't do it all the time. It's great for beginners though.

[microrahsheen]

I did back today and I had this thread in mind. I always kept my shoulders retracted because I'm wary of shoulder issues.

I must say that I felt a much better workout by keeping the shoulders in motion. It's really common sense I guess. Domonic layed it out pretty simply.

I wonder how doing rows without keeping the shoulders retraced affects conditions like winged scapula and protracted shoulder girdle, though. Any thoughts?

[I dont work at Ballys]

dont keep them pulled back, or let them protract excessively during the "stretch" portion of any row. they should move naturally. common sense wins again.

[Sir_Malak]

I prefer the full stretch at the top and the full contraction at the bottom with back movements (reverse those depending on what exercise we are talking about.) When I say full I am talking about a natural full not a strained type stretch. If you are controling the weight (and we all should if not lower it lol) your shoulders should not hurt from letting them flow and stretch. On the other hand if your trying to have some sort of ego and are tossing the weight around you could get a very un-welcomed pull on your shoulders hehe.

my 2 cents.

[stealth_swimmer]

Maybe keeping them retracted is "safer" but I'm not convinced it's more effective. I always aim for a full stretch at the bottom of a back exercise and let my shoulders drift forward to do that, and then focus on squeezing everything back there at the top.

I mean you're typically looking to achieve two things with pulling movements. Work the lats and target the mid-upper back (traps, rhomboids, etc.) The specific movement which targets the latter is scapular retraction, and if you've got everything retracted the whole time, how are you working it? Isometrically? You'll hardly be rowing enough weight to achieve much that way--you'd need deadlift/rack pull kind of resistance.

x2, and if the scapulae are retracted the whole time, then they're tensed but not really moving the weight, it'll be just the arms that are moving the weight, right(If I understand what the o/p is saying)?

[I dont work at Ballys]

here's a little blurb on scapulothoracic rhythm it for those interested...(Paul Chek)

"The human body is highly intelligent and remarkably efficient. To protect itself from unwanted injury the body will naturally sequence the recruitment of muscles to provide optimal load sharing across as many muscles and joints as possible. For example, when performing a bent-over row, the body will select the appropriate motor sequence to divide the load among all the pulling muscles (1). This allows each working muscle to make its maximum contribution when most favorable with regard to optimal length/force and length/tension relationships.

An example of faulty load sharing can be witnessed in those individuals who have been taught to adduct their scapulae prior to initiating a pull with the lats and other muscles. This faulty motor sequence disrupts load sharing by first recruiting the scapular adductors, shortening them beyond the range of their optimal length/force and length/tension relationships, which then leave the scapulohumeral musculature to perform the remainder of the work. This often leads to strain and trigger point development of the teres major, teres minor and infraspinatus muscles, or otherwise known as pattern overload (1, 2).

The athlete who regularly performs pulling exercises in the manner described above will likely have a shortening of the scapulohumeral musculature which eventually leads to faulty scapulothoracic rhythm. The result is scapulae that rotate prematurely during all pulling or abduction movements. Over time, this results in stretch weakness of the middle and lower trapezius, and rhomboid musculature. Individuals with this type of dysfunction will present themselves clinically as experiencing pain between the shoulder blades and often demonstrate reduced range of motion in shoulder abduction, internal rotation and shoulder flexion.

Through careful observation while training in the gym, you will notice that athletes fitting the movement pattern described above chop their pulling movements into segments. The pull is usually initiated rapidly, favoring use of the now lengthened scapular adductor muscles. The pulling motion is terminated after 60 - 70% of the normal pulling range because the optimal working range of the short/strong scapulohumeral muscles and now lengthened scapular adductors has been reached; the scapular adductors are not weak, per say, they are just strong at the wrong time.

This pattern of overload, and many others can be seen during many exercises commonly performed in the gym. Although it may take a skilled therapist or corrective exercise specialist to identify many of them, it is safe to assume that your average gym rat or pocket calculator physical therapist with a wild new idea about how to perform an exercise is not going to improve upon "Mother Nature." It has taken millions of years of natural development in the central nervous system (CNS) and peripheral nervous system to develop recruitment patterns that provide optimal load sharing. To test my theory, I consulted some of the oldest known experts on pulling, climbing and exercise (Figure 1). They told me, "if the body works, don't try to fix it!"

[solid_intensity]

So I guess I'm never constantly retracted my blades ever again. Allow a stretch then contract everything as I pull down. Sounds natural enough to me.

[solid_intensity]

What's everyone's thoughts on retracting the scapula while doing bench press??


Edit: Also thoughts on when doing rows, do you round your back as you go for pull stretch eccentric, or do you keep it straight? thanks.

Here...
thanks fellas I really appreciate it.

[stealth_swimmer]

What's everyone's thoughts on retracting the scapula while doing bench press??


Edit: Also thoughts on when doing rows, do you round your back as you go for pull stretch eccentric, or do you keep it straight? thanks.

Here...
thanks fellas I really appreciate it.

^^^I'm leaning a little farther back than usual cus when I use the triangle, for some reason if I stay too far vertical, I lose the contraction at the top.
And yea i was feeling lazy that day too

But that's about as far FORWARD as I go. I try to stay vertical for the most part



^^^like that basically. A little leaning back helps get a full contraction of the back muscles, but I try not to bend forward. That guy demonstrates is really well IMO.

[Duckenheimer]

Maybe keeping them retracted is "safer" but I'm not convinced it's more effective. I always aim for a full stretch at the bottom of a back exercise and let my shoulders drift forward to do that, and then focus on squeezing everything back there at the top.

I mean you're typically looking to achieve two things with pulling movements. Work the lats and target the mid-upper back (traps, rhomboids, etc.) The specific movement which targets the latter is scapular retraction, and if you've got everything retracted the whole time, how are you working it? Isometrically? You'll hardly be rowing enough weight to achieve much that way--you'd need deadlift/rack pull kind of resistance.

*edit for clarity*

No, you do not need to keep them retracted.

Yes, you can relax and contract.

In fact, you likely get better lat work from NOT doing it. Shoulder blade flexibility contributes a lot to back width.

If you are training your traps in particular, it might benefit you to avoid pre-stretching the lats.

I'm a little confused between the two comments. Personally I almost always go for the stretch on pullups, but in prone rows I keep my scapulae retracted.

Now not FULLY retracted, my shoulders still move backwards on the contraction part of the movement, but what I mean is I don't go for the stretch and keep my shoulders tight.

I still get a tremendous upper back/trap contraction (which is what I'm aiming for in the rows).

Would I be better off going for the stretch in rows, at least some of the time?

x2, and if the scapulae are retracted the whole time, then they're tensed but not really moving the weight, it'll be just the arms that are moving the weight, right(If I understand what the o/p is saying)?

Nope. It may depend on individual biomechanics, but if I do any move in decent form with the scapulae fully retracted, the back is still by far be the prime mover.

I can't see how the arms would become the prime mover, unless the elbows were not the main thing going backwards...

[stealth_swimmer]

Nope. It may depend on individual biomechanics, but if I do any move in decent form with the scapulae fully retracted, the back is still by far be the prime mover.

I can't see how the arms would become the prime mover, unless the elbows were not the main thing going backwards...

I'm not sure I get what the o/p is saying...like keeping the shoulder blades pinched back or what?

If that's the case then the back muscles wouldn't move the weight cus the muscle fibers would be shortened already. They might do SOME work, but certainly not as much as if you were to move them naturally.

[Duckenheimer]

I'm not sure I get what the o/p is saying...like keeping the shoulder blades pinched back or what?

If that's the case then the back muscles wouldn't move the weight cus the muscle fibers would be shortened already. They might do SOME work, but certainly not as much as if you were to move them naturally.

Try it and see. The mechanics of the movement still emphasise the back/lats.

I'd imagine unless your form is atrocious, the back would still be the prime mover (if the shoulders were FULLY pinched back, something I don't do usually until contraction).

It's DEFINITELY the case with me.

It still don't see any reason for stress to be relayed to the arms. They ain't doing anything different.