Do martial arts make you a better fighter?

[bjjwraslter7]

lol you said "the basics=theory not tested"

that gives me the green light to think that you know nothing whatsoever

Exactly why I responded to that post with this.

You can leave now...

[Chett]

I figure I'd humor you since I don't see an end to this ego fest. God forbid someone questions your years of "training:.

wow i dont think ive ever seen someone who didnt understand what training is

so by training, you automatically assume its just hitting a focus mit or something 100 times every day?

[Otis_Redding]

wow i dont think ive ever seen someone who didnt understand what training is

so by training, you automatically assume its just hitting a focus mit or something 100 times every day?

My argument was, just because you go to class and play fight, does not necessarily mean you would do better than a person that has the natural ability to fight. Don't tell me you've never seen one of these people.

I do understand what training is, but you guys disagree with the fact that training is not the end all be all in combat. 9 out of 10 times, training will not produce a great fighter, they are rare, as rare as the person that can throw his weight around naturally.

Disagree with it all you want, but change my mind on the subject? Not gonna happen.

[JAGERBOY]

Never read that one..how is it?

Its pretty good, obviously you realize that you are wrong here or you would have responded to the true point of my post...douche.

[Otis_Redding]

Its pretty good, obviously you realize that you are wrong here or you would have responded to the true point of my post...douche.

I'm sorry but wrong about what? Using an example to support my idea?

Edit: and I'm happy you liked the book. I figured you wouldn't be reading books on training since you support the class room teachings.

[JAGERBOY]

I'm sorry but wrong about what? Using an example to support my idea?

You said that someone that reads a book thinks they will do good in a fight...while we are talking about people that actually do legitimate training underneath qualified people...douche.

[Otis_Redding]

You said that someone that reads a book thinks they will do good in a fight...while we are talking about people that actually do legitimate training underneath qualified people...douche.

And I am talking about people who have natural abilities, god given. Which you guys seem to deny even exists.


Edit: woah wait, did you take offense because you read books? Like Bas' book you mentioned?

[Chett]

My argument was, just because you go to class and play fight, does not necessarily mean you would do better than a person that has the natural ability to fight. Don't tell me you've never seen one of these people.

I do understand what training is, but you guys disagree with the fact that training is not the end all be all in combat. 9 out of 10 times, training will not produce a great fighter, they are rare, as rare as the person that can throw his weight around naturally.

Disagree with it all you want, but change my mind on the subject? Not gonna happen.

"9 out of 10 times, training will not produce a great fighter"

wow you have gone above and beyond your previous stupidity, and far above and beyond the stupidity of mainframesolja and lionofjud@h. i think you should seriously just leave this forum.

some moron who " can throw his weight around" isnt gonna be able to do **** against a trained fighter, if you think otherwise, then your just on *******

[Rune44]

Depends on how serious the guy who is "trained" is.
I see guys at my school who could get beat easily by a good street fighter just because they don't spar and they don't take the training seriously. These people could easily be beaten.

Someone who actually SPARS and USES the techniques in actual sparing combat will beat most untrained people. Most of the cases of people who are "trained" and get beat by an untrained individual are those who arn't serious about fighting and don't spar etc, or they got unlucky and the untrained guy got in a lucky punch in the wrong place.

[Otis_Redding]

"9 out of 10 times, training will not produce a great fighter"

wow you have gone above and beyond your previous stupidity, and far above and beyond the stupidity of mainframesolja and lionofjud@h. i think you should seriously just leave this forum.

some moron who " can throw his weight around" isnt gonna be able to do **** against a trained fighter, if you think otherwise, then your just on *******

It depends on the individual who received the training. Train Erkle on bjj, he should be able to kick ass right? At least thats what your theory is suggesting. Unless Erkle was born with fighting instincts, sense of self, he will never be able to compete with the guy that can "throw his weight around".

[Chett]

Depends on how serious the guy who is "trained" is.
I see guys at my school who could get beat easily by a good street fighter just because they don't spar and they don't take the training seriously. These people could easily be beaten.

Someone who actually SPARS and USES the techniques in actual sparing combat will beat most untrained people. Most of the cases of people who are "trained" and get beat by an untrained individual are those who arn't serious about fighting and don't spar etc, or they got unlucky and the untrained guy got in a lucky punch in the wrong place.

someone who doesnt spar doesnt really train in my opinion, they are just pretending.

[Rune44]

someone who doesnt spar doesnt really train in my opinion, they are just pretending.

precisely. I believe Otis and the others who agree untrained can beat trained have seen those who don't spar and therefore. Don't truely train. So, they get beaten easily because all they have is memorizing combinations and cardio

[Chett]

It depends on the individual who received the training. Train Erkle on bjj, he should be able to kick ass right? At least thats what your theory is suggesting. Unless Erkle was born with fighting instincts, sense of self, he will never be able to compete with the guy that can "throw his weight around".

what the **** does throwing your weight around mean?

if steve ****ing erkle got trained in JJ, and became a black belt in JJ, or even a blue belt or lower, he would absolutely destroy one of these guys that can "throw their weight around" (whatever the **** that means anyways) training > thinking that you can fight

take someone like royce gracie, who doesnt seem like the toughest guy, but he beat some huge ass guys in the early ufcs who thought that they could "throw their weight around" pretty well.

[Otis_Redding]

And what's with all this hostility? Can't you people just make your points without getting upset? What is the first rule of thumb in battle? Stay calm. I can tell you guys are serious fighters......your years of training has made you very stable in the emotional department.

[Chett]

And what's with all this hostility? Can't you people just make your points without getting upset? What is the first rule of thumb in battle? Stay calm. I can tell you guys are serious fighters......your years of training has made you very stable in the emotional department.

i take it as an insult when some idiot comes in here thinking he knows everything, and says that 9 times out of 10 training wont make you a good fighter, and that "the basics= theory not tested" and any of the other ridiculously retarded things you have said in this thread.

[Rune44]

And what's with all this hostility? Can't you people just make your points without getting upset? What is the first rule of thumb in battle? Stay calm. I can tell you guys are serious fighters......your years of training has made you very stable in the emotional department.

I'm sorry if I seemed hostile I was merely trying to make my point

[KRANE]

You have a valid point. Althought skill and training do go a long was, it's basically designed to give the underdog a superior ground. Animals fight all the time, and without any skill or training whatsoever--a victor is always determined! Not to discount training, there are other factors involved, both psychological, physiological as well as emotional--in a good fighting school, more than just fighting skills are taught. Furthermore, in a fight of skill, it's the person that keeps his head the longest, that usually wins. But without a doubt, the instinctive 'wind mill effect' (e.g. brute force) has been, and will continue to be successfully used as a means in determining who walks away a victor, and who does not.

[JAGERBOY]

And I am talking about people who have natural abilities, god given. Which you guys seem to deny even exists.


Edit: woah wait, did you take offense because you read books? Like Bas' book you mentioned?

First off, Im atheist, so dont open up a whole new argument. Second off, again, you are comparing REAL training, to reading a book as being the same. If you had any reading comprehension skills, you would see that Im saying that just reading a book is not gonna give you the skills you need to be a great fighter....while training under a real human being will.

[Otis_Redding]

what the **** does throwing your weight around mean?

if steve ****ing erkle got trained in JJ, and became a black belt in JJ, or even a blue belt or lower, he would absolutely destroy one of these guys that can "throw their weight around" (whatever the **** that means anyways) training > thinking that you can fight

take someone like royce gracie, who doesnt seem like the toughest guy, but he beat some huge ass guys in the early ufcs who thought that they could "throw their weight around" pretty well.

A person that can throw his weight around, in my opinion, is a person that has a great sense and control of their own body. Not so much from training, but they have a god given ability. They have more fight in them, more control over anger, fear. You can kind of train that, but I believe, once a pussy, always a pussy. I'm sure you know a few kids from your childhood, that always got picked on, beat on. They join a martial arts school, and still get their asses kicked. Because, even with all that "training" you hype up so much, it does not change who they are, were born with on the inside.

Now bringing up a gracie is totally out isn't it? Even though I could apply the theory of "natural fighter" to him as well.

[Otis_Redding]

First off, Im atheist, so dont open up a whole new argument. Second off, again, you are comparing REAL training, to reading a book as being the same. If you had any reading comprehension skills, you would see that Im saying that just reading a book is not gonna give you the skills you need to be a great fighter....while training under a real human being will.

I never said it would, I was making fun of the fact that people will read a book and think they can pull **** off. I also think the same for class training. If you do not have the innate ability to fight, you will never have it. It will be as if you were reading a book.

[Chett]

A person that can throw his weight around, in my opinion, is a person that has a great sense and control of their own body. Not so much from training, but they have a god given ability. They have more fight in them, more control over anger, fear. You can kind of train that, but I believe, once a pussy, always a pussy. I'm sure you know a few kids from your childhood, that always got picked on, beat on. They join a martial arts school, and still get their asses kicked. Because, even with all that "training" you hype up so much, it does not change who they are, were born with on the inside.

Now bringing up a gracie is totally out isn't it? Even though I could apply the theory of "natural fighter" to him as well.

what the hell are you talking about? are you some type of scientologist or something?

and usually those kids that join martial arts schools or whatever join a tae kwan do class

the theory of "natural fighter" is just douchebaggery to the 1st degree, you need to get a grip, and start inching back into the real world.

[Rune44]

I never said it would, I was making fun of the fact that people will read a book and think they can pull **** off. I also think the same for class training. If you do not have the innate ability to fight, you will never have it. It will be as if you were reading a book.

Most of those who have NO drive for the ability to fight will not take MMA most of the people who are in MMA and take it seriously have at least SOME natural flare to fight. I believe those who take it seriously and spar will beat someone who is untrained.

[bjjwraslter7]

There you go,...you can't expect us lesser fighters to understand what a pro such as yourself mean with vague answers like that. We need details,...from someone as versed in the fighting arts such as yourself.

Dude you are a fuking joke, if we give you details it will be a waste of our time because you know nothing about fighting as you've already proven. I tried to be civil with you and explain how you are wrong but now I'm just getting irritated by your ignorance and attitude. This is a retarded thread and a waste of everyones time but I'll try anyway...

Over the years, I've come across a few so called MMA guys. Not that hard to beat, and all I ever trained in was boxing and tkd. They try to use their grappling techs they learned in class and try to charge at my legs to take me down. What is the easiest way to end that? Drop a knee on their shoulders with your body weight when they try to dive under you. Who taught me this? Nobody and it works very well. And when we get on the ground and try to use "technique", I usually twist them up pretty easy. No wrestling or bjj training either.

You said the easiest way to stop someones shot is to drop your knee on their shoulders to drive them under you. You can't understand how rediculous that sounds to a wrestler. You would basicaly give me a takedown if you did that. When someone shoots on you that knows what their doing (not the garbage guys you apparently rolled with), you want your legs to be as far away from them as possible. It's called a sprawl, you throw your legs back behind you and use your arms, chest, and if they get past those your hips to keep them away from your legs. You DO NOT bring your legs forward, that's begging to be taken down.

So basicaly the right thing to do is use everything you have to keep your opponent from getting closer to your legs, and your "natural talent" told you to immediatly bring your leg towards him.These are the basics that I was talking about that you obviously have no grasp of. This is something you would learn your first day at wrestling practice, and if you said "what if I put my knee on his shoulder and drive him down" you would be laughed off the mat. If you had been facing a real grappler and not some wannabe, or figmant of your imagination, you would be in a world of hurt.

Now apparently they sucked badly enough that that actualy worked, and it went to the ground where you apparently "twisted them all up". I have to assume that these guys went to like 3 jiu jitsu sessions and went around telling people they did mma because even a novice at jiu jitsu would at least be able to stall and prevent you from doing anything. Did they even bother to pull gaurd or do any of the bjj BASICS? Or did you just use your "natural fighting ability" that everyone is born with to know how to pass gaurd?

Seriously you have no f'n clue what you are talking about and I hope you go up against a real grappler at some point.

[Otis_Redding]

i take it as an insult when some idiot comes in here thinking he knows everything, and says that 9 times out of 10 training wont make you a good fighter, and that "the basics= theory not tested" and any of the other ridiculously retarded things you have said in this thread.

The 9 out of 10 is my belief. And the basics=theory not tested has been explained by me more than a few times in this thread.

They have been tested by INDIVIDUALS in the past, they may or may have not had sucess with it depending on the INDIVIDUAL. Just because it worked for one man, fok it, lets say it worked for a million men, it still does not mean everyone that gets the tested basics will have the same sucess.

Now if I have to explain this anymore, maybe you are the retard for not understanding this, time after time?

[Chett]

hahah he said he puts his legs toward a grappler? holy **** how retarded can you get. thats a HORRIBLE idea. and i seriously doubt you would beat a trained grappler in a grappling match.

[Otis_Redding]

Most of those who have NO drive for the ability to fight will not take MMA most of the people who are in MMA and take it seriously have at least SOME natural flare to fight. I believe those who take it seriously and spar will beat someone who is untrained.

OK so you agree they have natural flare to fight, which kind of backs my idea up. ANd who is to say only serious people will take MMA? Thats generalizing the whole population isn't it? Doesn't seem plausible.

[Otis_Redding]

hahah he said he puts his legs toward a grappler? holy **** how retarded can you get. thats a HORRIBLE idea. and i seriously doubt you would beat a trained grappler in a grappling match.

And I doubt a grappler will beat me in a striking match. SO what's your point?

[Chett]

OK so you agree they have natural flare to fight, which kind of backs my idea up. ANd who is to say only serious people will take MMA? Thats generalizing the whole population isn't it? Doesn't seem plausible.

your idea is horrible

some people WANT to do MMA, and WANT to do a fighting sport, while some other people dont. if those other people actually wanted to do it then theres no reason that they would be worse then other people who want to do it.

[Chett]

And I doubt a grappler will beat me in a striking match. SO what's your point?

my point is that you said you put your legs in front of a grappler, which is one of the worst ideas ive ever heard for takedown defense

and you also tried to say that you have defeated grapplers in a grappling match lol

[JAGERBOY]

I never said it would, I was making fun of the fact that people will read a book and think they can pull **** off. I also think the same for class training. If you do not have the innate ability to fight, you will never have it. It will be as if you were reading a book.

You are correct, some people are just naturally clumsy, and make bad dicisions in fights. But, for arguments sake, most rational people are going to assume we are talking about a relatively even playing field. You have person A, who has no training....and person B who has in class training...both of which are of equal "common sense" and agility....person B will win 99% of the time.