Non-methylated Prohormones

[njt11]

What prohormones are available right now that are not toxic to the liver?
What I know of so far include:

Revolt
Max LMG
X-Mass

Prostanozol
Orastan-e
MegaZol

I put them together by their chemical compounds. Are there any other PHs out there that are not harsh on the liver? Im in college and on cycle Im sure I'll end up going out a couple nights on my cycle, don't want to risk any kind of liver damages. And yes, I do know that alcohol inhibits gains extremely, I have taken it into consideration, and although I will not for sure be drinking, I'd rather be safe than sorry. Thanks

[bbgolfer]

I am no expert on the topic, and have never used prohormones either. But I believe that any oral prohormone/steroid is going to be toxic to your liver to some extent. Some are just more toxic than others. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[Biceps]

I am no expert on the topic, and have never used prohormones either. But I believe that any oral prohormone/steroid is going to be toxic to your liver to some extent. Some are just more toxic than others. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

No, you're absolutely right.

NJT11...I'd recommend looking into some support supplements for you liver and cholesterol. At the very least Anabolic Xtreme puts out a product specifically designed for this called Perfect Cycle to help aid in liver protection.

[Viado]

In any case even though they are not methylated (technically anything with a carbon and hydrogen has a metnhy ;-) I would stillencourage you to add liver support to any and all cycles of prohormones - they need to be metabolized by the liver in order to be converted to their active forms.

I second the use of perfect cycle - NAC is used clinically for acetaminophen toxicity and it is a well established compound, milk thistle has also been well studied.

[kappaz]

If you end up wanting something for your liver take a look at these

• AX Perfect Cycle
• NOW NAC
• NSI Healthy Liver Version 2
• Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
• Himalaya Liver Care

[-Optional-]

If you end up wanting something for your liver take a look at these

• AX Perfect Cycle
• NOW NAC
• NSI Healthy Liver Version 2
• Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
• Himalaya Liver Care

Anabolic Innovation's being the product of choice IMO. Just add some CoQ10 and you ready to rock and roll.

[kappaz]

Anabolic Innovation's being the product of choice IMO. Just add some CoQ10 and you ready to rock and roll.

You don't need coq10. It has idebenone which is superior

[NoNameNecessary]

Hopes some of this helps.

Post-Cycle Nolva
Best Ways to Retain New Muscle Post-Cycle
Liver Protection
PCT Products…What You NEED and Why

Since so many guys are always asking about taking orals I figured I would post a few tips to keep your liver healthy and yourself in doing so. If I miss anything please add on to the list.

1. ALA- great supplement for helping liver function; medical reports proving its success. dosages vary, I say 1gram when on.
2. NAC- supports liver function and production of L-glutathione
3. L-glutathione- a natural protein that protects cells from free radicals; some say it is ineffective orally but it is cheap
4. Milk Thistle (silymarin)- great herbal supplement for helping restore healthy liver func; can be taken year round
5.Vitamin C and E- helpful antioxidants
6.Water- drink plently of water it helps flush your system
7.Do not drink alcohol

Blends/brands worth trying: Liv52, tyler liver detox,MRM liver protection

hope this is helpful

[njt11]

Thanks for the help guys, but not exactly what my question was. I understand PCT as well as all neccesary supporting supplements during a cycle/pct.

I was wondering if there are any other non-methylated aas's out there, besides those that I had listed.

[Jimmorrison]

m-tst
m-trn
halodrol 50 (methyl)
promagnon 25 (methyl)
finigenx

[njt11]

m-tst
m-trn
halodrol 50 (methyl)
promagnon 25 (methyl)
finigenx

Any personal recommendations? I ran revolt and prostanozol before, was planning on running again in about a month (actually the generic labz form), but now am considering maybe something stronger? Have you or anyone you know used these?

[Jimmorrison]

Any personal recommendations? I ran revolt and prostanozol before, was planning on running again in about a month (actually the generic labz form), but now am considering maybe something stronger? Have you or anyone you know used these?

there is alot of logs on am.com
i have used trn in a sd/trn stack with great results.if you are experienced,here is my idea..
it would be a great strenght,cut,clean bulk cycle.

week 1-6 prostanozol 75-100mg ed
week 1-6 m-tst 3 caps ed
week 3-6 m-trn 4-6 mg ed

[Kohen_Gadol]

But I believe that any oral prohormone/steroid is going to be toxic to your liver to some extent. Some are just more toxic than others. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong. Glad to help.

It's the alpha-alkylation (e.g. "methyl") at C-17a (or maybe C-7a/b or
perhaps at C-2 also) that is widely viewed as causing liver issues
(and this is usually minor, transient and not a 100% effect).

Non-"methylated" products are not generally liver toxic.

And I know people mean well but the "liver protection supplements'
thing is a scam and a huge racket to make people money.

And that's about all I have to say on that!


BK

[kappaz]

And I know people mean well but the "liver protection supplements'
thing is a scam and a huge racket to make people money.

And that's about all I have to say on that!


BK

When you say its a scam-
Do you mean that you think the actual products (liv52, nac, etc) are not effective, or that liver toxicity is just overblown, and your liver can handle the stress & recover fine from something like sd/pp/h-50 with no additional help needed?

[nukLhed]

And I know people mean well but the "liver protection supplements'
thing is a scam and a huge racket to make people money.
BK

How do you explain liver values getting screwed up?

Methylated steriods mess up the SAMe enzyme cycle-SAMe in the liver. S-adenoylmethionone undergoes a cycle in methylating things that need to undergo phase II detox in the liver, which steroids DO need to undergo. Usually SAMe donates a methyl group and becomes homocysteine (which IS very hepatoxic), but gets re-methylated by a methyl donator such as vitamin b12 or b3, to turn into SAMe again (sound familiar? like the atp cycle we know to well from creatine-body likes to recycle crap) Since the roid is already methylated SAMe cant do its job (of methylation, and a build up of SAMe occurs, and that can cause a build up of other liver enzymes, alot of which cant do their job-which is either oxidize, reduce, conjugate a molecule, sulfinate a molecule, all in the effort to make things more water soluble-so you can piss em out-they other way for garbage to go out is if its fat soluble (it goes through a pathway with bile), anyways, when garbage (namely free radicals, oxygena and nitrogen species, that the livers pathways are to clogged up to clear out) build up they can cause cancer or other hepa-diseases. Something like this happens. when the liver get overloaded in one pathway of garbage clearing, it trys another, but enzymes build up to a tipping point where they start to inhibit other processes, and your screwed when this starts to happen.

Liver toxicity is not really toxicity. It just has to do with the degree of difficulty associated with breaking down a methyllated compound. Breaking down a methylated compund results in the creation of excess "free radicals, oxygena and nitrogen species". Surely supplementing with anti-oxidants will speed the clean-up process.

[gaberox]

Its actually a very complicated issue(liver toxicity)I have a very elementary understanding of it.However I would believe NAC and r-ala to be the most benefical as they prduce glutathione in the liver it is known that biliary glutathione levels decrease significantly soon after a toxic steroid is administered.There may be difficulty for the liver to transport glutathione where it needs to go however so extra glutathione may not be so great.

I dont have the best understanding of it all so its all speculation.

[Kohen_Gadol]

When you say its a scam-
Do you mean that you think the actual products (liv52, nac, etc) are not effective, or that liver toxicity is just overblown, and your liver can handle the stress & recover fine from something like sd/pp/h-50 with no additional help needed?

These products (liver protectors) were designed to offset the symptoms
of bacterial or viral hepatitis and fatty liver disease/cirrhosis. Yes, in
those conditions, LFT's may be elevated quite a bit but the underlying
mechanism causing the increase in LFT's is vastly different then the
*potential* rise in LFT's related to C-17a alkylated steroids.

So these "liver supps" probably won't do squat WRT to "protecting
your liver" against this mysterious quasi-phantom "liver problem"
everyone thinks orals cause (this is like an urban legend).

In the unlikely event you were to experience a pathological rise in
LFT's due to the use of a "methyl" I am not convinced these supps
are gonna do a damned bit of good. Save your nickels guys - there is
not proof these do ANYTHING to help lower LFT's related to androgen use.

Now some might help with increased cholesterol level but that has issues
of it's own and is not really liver related inasmuch as people think.

Liver toxicity is overblown (greatly) and has only been documented
with the methylated stuff and only with a few of them anyhow.
And, liver enzyme levels will usually, but not always, go back to normal
within 90 days of someone stopping use all on their own

Your liver is a very resilient organ - you would have to be down to
less than 10% liver function before you would die as an FYI.

It heals well - after all, it is a giant detoxification/sewer type organ!
That's what it does.

AFAIK, only oxymetholone has been "linked" to hepatic cancer and
hepatitis.

Let's try to keep to "facts" and not "fantasy".

I would just use a good multi-vitamin with an extra dose of Vitamin C
(it is a good anti-ox and cheap as dirt) for "support" - other than
estrogen control if that is needed.

Just how it is...sorry.


BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

How do you explain liver values getting screwed up?



Liver toxicity is not really toxicity. It just has to do with the degree of difficulty associated with breaking down a methyllated compound. Breaking down a methylated compund results in the creation of excess "free radicals, oxygena and nitrogen species". Surely supplementing with anti-oxidants will speed the clean-up process.

Do not take this as a slam - look at it as being educational.

Just because oral steroids "allegedly" cause transaminase levels to rise
a bit DOES NOT MEAN that the supplements you buy and use are going
to reverse this (even if a bunch of good bros here who mean well are
repeating unsubstantiated 'advice' they heard here or read over 'there'.

Yes...C-17aa's and some other orals are linked with a transient and
USUALLY AUTO-REVERSIBLE rise in LFT's, especially ALT/AST levels.

But these tend to revert back to normal levels when the offending
compound is stopped - irrespective of "liver support supplements".

There is no proof...even of the really "stretched and embellished" proof
that these liver "protectors" will protect against a rise in LFT's related
to methyl anabolic oral use.

None. Gauntlet tossed down *slaps face left and right with leather
glove* now I challenge you to find me one, even ONE study that shows
these supps to anything to help 'steroid induced' liver issues.

I think you understand where I am going with this.

If it were me...I'd take a good multi, some Vit. C and drink a lot of
water (bottled, preferable Evian).


BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

I dont have the best understanding of it all so its all speculation.

As is playing the horses at the track, scratch off tickets or any state lottery.
(I'll leave the stock market out of it).

Now that its put into perspective - still gonna spend the bank on the
"liver protectors"?

That's what I thought.

BK

[daveburton]

You're wrong. Glad to help.

It's the alpha-alkylation (e.g. "methyl") at C-17a (or maybe C-7a/b or
perhaps at C-2 also) that is widely viewed as causing liver issues
(and this is usually minor, transient and not a 100% effect).

Non-"methylated" products are not generally liver toxic.

And I know people mean well but the "liver protection supplements'
thing is a scam and a huge racket to make people money.

And that's about all I have to say on that!


BK

The return of the great BK!!! Can we expect you go mud slinging again?
If so, let me get the chips and beer ready

[Kohen_Gadol]

The return of the great BK!!! Can we expect you go mud slinging again?
If so, let me get the chips and beer ready

Why aren't you at BN where you usually live?

Nice to see you too, Mr. Burton. Baked and not fried (the chips, I want some). And a black and tan (for my beer).

BK

[njt11]

Come back 8 hrs later to see my thread turned into a huge liver arguement lol
Anyways, are some of you saying its so over-rated that supplements like sd/pp dont even effect it that much? and that milk thistle and liver prots are 90% bs? Doesnt seem accurate at all

[NATHAN518]

BK is right on here...the affects of androgens on the liver is blown way out of proportion. In fact, there is a study...(i will go get it if you guys insist) that tested steroid using and non-steroid using bodybuilders liver values...guess what? ALL of them had elevated liver enzymes...juicers and non-juicers alike.
interesting, huh? now, there are some inherent problems with said study...we don't know what drugs these guys were using...but, given the popularity of orals, it is safe to assume that at least 2 or 3 out of 20 were using a c-17aa oral.

[US-Marine]

actually, Kohen makes some valid points. I've spoken with some people about this matter and milk thistle has not even proven to do ****. Also for for the other ancillary support supps, it seems the more scientists I converse with the less I believe in the great support that these products give. Most are infact not producing effective results. Head over AM, the guys there are ridiculously smart in the fields on science and body chemistry. oh yeah, most of the **** on BB forums is anectodotal, the guys here reallly don't know much in terms of the science and chemistry. This place is good for asking about like creatine and protein, fundamentals. Again, not everyone, but majority here.

[NATHAN518]

NAC, milk thistle and the like are great if you are a raging alcoholic...

[animalfan]

BK is right on here...the affects of androgens on the liver is blown way out of proportion. In fact, there is a study...(i will go get it if you guys insist) that tested steroid using and non-steroid using bodybuilders liver values...guess what? ALL of them had elevated liver enzymes...juicers and non-juicers alike.
interesting, huh? now, there are some inherent problems with said study...we don't know what drugs these guys were using...but, given the popularity of orals, it is safe to assume that at least 2 or 3 out of 20 were using a c-17aa oral.

if it's not too much trouble, i'd be interested in reading it.

[NATHAN518]

if it's not too much trouble, i'd be interested in reading it.

i will see if i can retrieve it...

[NATHAN518]

for animalfan....



Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated?



Researchers: Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ

The Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth 76107-2699, USA.

Source: Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9

Summary:

Subjects: The participants were bodybuilders taking self-directed regimens of anabolic steroids (n = 15) and bodybuilders not taking steroids (n = 10). Blood chemistry profiles from patients with viral hepatitis (n = 49) and exercising and non-exercising medical students (592) were used as controls.

Measurements: The focus of the blood chemistry profiles was on aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels. (All indicators of liver function.)

Results: In both groups of bodybuilders, CK, AST, and ALT were elevated, whereas GGT remained in the normal range. In contrast, patients with hepatitis had elevations of all three enzymes: ALT, AST, and GGT. Creatine kinase (CK) was elevated in all exercising groups. Patients with hepatitis were the only group in which a correlation was found between aminotransferases and GGT.

OBJECTIVE: There have been numerous reports of hepatic dysfunction secondary to anabolic steroid use based on elevated levels of serum aminotransferases. This study was conducted to distinguish between serum aminotransaminase elevations secondary to intense resistance training and anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity in elite bodybuilders. DESIGN: This was a case-control study of serum chemistry profiles from bodybuilders using and not using anabolic steroids with comparisons to a cohort of medical students and patients with hepatitis. PARTICIPANTS: The participants were bodybuilders taking self-directed regimens of anabolic steroids (n = 15) and bodybuilders not taking steroids (n = 10). Blood chemistry profiles from patients with viral hepatitis (n = 49) and exercising and nonexercising medical students (592) were used as controls. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The focus in blood chemistry profiles was aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels. RESULTS: In both groups of bodybuilders, CK, AST, and ALT were elevated, whereas GGT remained in the normal range. In contrast, patients with hepatitis had elevations of all three enzymes: ALT, AST, and GGT. Creatine kinase (CK) was elevated in all exercising groups. Patients with hepatitis were the only group in which a correlation was found between aminotransferases and GGT. CONCLUSION: Prior reports of anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity based on elevated aminotransferase levels may have been overstated, because no exercising subjects, including steroid users, demonstrated hepatic dysfunction based on GGT levels. Such reports may have misled the medical community to emphasize steroid-induced hepatotoxicity when interpreting elevated aminotransferase levels and disregard muscle damage. For these reasons, when evaluating hepatic function in cases of anabolic steroid therapy or abuse, CK and GGT levels should be considered in addition to ALT and AST levels as essential elements of the assessment.

[animalfan]

for animalfan....

thanks!

[nukLhed]

If it were me...I'd take a good multi, some Vit. C and drink a lot of
water (bottled, preferable Evian).


BK

I agree that the entire liver toxicity thing is overstated. Milk thistle is ****. I believe anti-oxidants will help until you prove to me they won't.

Why would you take vitamin C? So vitamin C will help, but not NAC or ALA?

Here's a thread i started a few weeks ago
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=834908