If You Want Advice on Mentzer's Heavy Duty,This Is The Thread To Ask Your Questions

[konerko14]

Feel free to ask any rational questions that will help you and other readers better understand Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty principles. I will do my best to answer your questions properly. I would also like to urge "trolls" to not post in this thread as it is a waste of everyones time.

[the iron addict]

OK, please let me preface this with the fact that I used Mikes system extensivly on both myself, and quite a few training clients, and was also personally trained by Mike himself in the early 90's.

Why do trainees fail to make long term progress on Mike's system?

And let me also state I know the answer

Iron Addict

[konerko14]

First, lets establish what you mean by long term progress.

[TheCore]

Heavy Duty promotes going to failure all the time, right???

[llb4]

Why do trainees fail to make long term progress on Mike's system?

overtraining.

[TheCore]

This thread is about failure and overtraining; http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=782097

This is why I'm not really a hit fan, it's not optimal...

[konerko14]

Yeah, going to failure is a necessity to obtain optimal results. Negatives-only sets are exceptions, however, and are not taken to complete failure, but close to it.

I just read your first post in the forum you posted. You said people who train to failure, their muscles recover almost right away but have to wait several extra days to let the CNS recover as well. You are wrong, though. Overcompensation(growth) is actually the last thing that happens. Only after the body has recovered its energy source, then will it begin to overcompensate.

You also mention that training with sub-maximal intensity sets and exercising muliple days a week will produce better results as opposed to training to failure and resting 7-10 days. First of all, you will not grow any worthy muscle with a high volume workout unless you have superior genetics and/or use drug enhancements. A sub-maximal set can already be performed by your body, and the body only makes drastic changes(build muscle) if it has to, meaning you must train to failure.

[the iron addict]

First, lets establish what you mean by long term progress.

I mean that after 6-16 weeks all progress halts, and 16 weeks is WAY on the high side.

IA

[konerko14]

If you stop making progress after that short of time then you obviously arent applying the principles correctly. I read one of your earlier posts and you mocked Mentzer for saying a bodybuilder needs to lower the frequency and amount of sets as he gets stronger. As you get stronger, more stress continues to be put on your body since you are lifting heavier weights, therefore more time is needed to recover.

[TheCore]

Firts it's called supercompensation (at least that's what we call it), and the CNS takes longer to recover if you train to failure, than the muscle.

And that's why I also talk about medium, light and heavy days in a week...

If you want to train optimal for supercompensation hit is not the way to go, you'll be better of with a routine such as Bill Starrs 5x5. He trained athletes that had to improve their preformance (they needed to make optimal use of supercompensation)...

[the iron addict]

If you stop making progress after that short of time then you obviously arent applying the principles correctly. I read one of your earlier posts and you mocked Mentzer for saying a bodybuilder needs to lower the frequency and amount of sets as he gets stronger. As you get stronger, more stress continues to be put on your body since you are lifting heavier weights, therefore more time is needed to recover.

EVERY other strength sport (and intelligently designed BB'ing systems) works to increase work capacity over time. I can't possibly see that Mike is the only one out of every single strength researcher and strength coach that had a grasp of effective training.

You are 20, I was 30 something (and had lifted since age 15 or so, am 43 now) when I did Mentzer style training and while it was effective for strength gains, they always stopped. I still beleived in the system to the point I paid good money to have Mike train me personally. The same thing happened. I have trained well over 100 people using Mike's system back when I didn't know better and guess what happened? They all got HORRIBLY STUCK and Mike's reccomendation of train less, less frequently only made it worse.

I now train 70+ people on a full time basis and I would be out of business if I used Mike's methods. Initial gains are great! They STOP, and he has NO method of making them keep working. I have people that have made continuios progress for 1-2 years, but you know what, it is only continious in the context that their are planned deload/periodized backoffs. Mikes contension that you could achieve your genetic potential in 1 year is BULL**** and has NEVER been realized.

Mike was/is one of the greats of the BB'ing world. But his system was severely flawed. If you want a low volume, high intensity system, use DC's system. It is very well thought out and takes into account the failings of heavy duty.

Iron Addict

[konerko14]

Iron Addict-

You obviously dont know Mentzers principles if you can only get results for 6 weeks with them. Theres nothing more to say on that and theres no reason to take advice from you about Mentzer. If you dont think his system is valid, get off this thread. Read what the title of the thread is.

[TheCore]

Wow, you don't know who Iron Addict is, do you???

He has given out more solid information than Mike Mentzer did with heavy Duty!

[konerko14]

Core-

If you did a Heavy Duty workout, you would see that overcompensation(or supercompensation for the laymens) is the last stage of the recovery process. Its very easy to see visually that the last 2-3 days are when your muscles grow larger. If you workout before that time occurs, you short circuit the growth process. The significant point you are missing is that the body is not going to spend a lot of energy to build muscles before it even recovers the much needed energy reserves. The body has to compensate before it can overcompensate.

It sure looks like hes against Mentzer to me. He hasnt said anything to back him up. Are you kidding me

[TheCore]

I know what it is, I had to learn about it when I studied physical therapy.

You want to train the muscle again, as soon as it's recovered!

If you train to failure, the muscle will recover before the CNS does, that's why hit has long rest periods. So you don't train the muscle as soon as its recovered > that's not optimal!!!

[konerko14]

If anyone has a legitimate question, feel free to ask.

[the iron addict]

Look, you are twenty, and maybe have done the system a short period of time. ANYONE THAT TELLS YOU THAT YOU CAN DO THE SAME LIFTS WEEK IN WEEK OUT WITHOUT ANY VARIANCE AND EXPECT THE BODY TO CONTINUE TO ADAPT WITHOUT MODULATING THE TRAINING LOAD AS MENTZER'S SYSTEM HAD YOU DO IS FULL OF BULL****!

There is not a single good training protocol out there that keeps all parameters static and expects results in the long run--period. All GOOD systems that work use some method of periodization whether is be linear, dual factor, or conjugated, or variations.

ANY lifter of any experience will tell you that as long as you keep pounding away doing the same set/rep/intensity format you will quickly become stuck. There is no denying that.

Have you trained a 100 people using Mike's system? I have. What were your results?

I have used all renditions of Mike's system including the original, that from his second book (which was by far the best, and one I got great gains on until it left me STUCK) and his last one which SUCKED. There are huge flaws in it and if your level of understanding is too limited for you not to see them, as mine once was, well, I am sorry. Again I trained people using his principles many many years ago and thougt I was hot **** because people got WAY better results than the volume stuff they were doing. But they ALWAYS got stuck, and at least I had the common sense to change their training then. HD can be a great change of pace and provide some good gains, but as a long-term system to use as written, it is useless.

Again, I train 70+ lifters at a time and if I used his system I would be out of work since people do not want good gains that stop, they want good gains that continue. Again, do some research on DC's system if you want a great low volume high intensity system. It is light years ahead of Mike's stuff.

Iron Addict

[konerko14]

Nobody is forcing you to use Mentzers system, or even think about it. So dont come on this thread anymore if you dont like it. Use your "common sense".

[the iron addict]

Nobody is forcing you to use Mentzers system, or even think about it. So dont come on this thread anymore if you dont like it. Use your "common sense".

I am just trying to make you think about it.

Again:

ANY lifter of any experience will tell you that as long as you keep pounding away doing the same set/rep/intensity format you will quickly become stuck. There is no denying that.

IA

[TheCore]

He's just pointing out it's flaws, that's all!

Don't be hating, we're just debating

[the iron addict]

Please understand that is fails for the same reason that MOST bodybuilders using other ROUTINES fail. Becuase it is just that--it is a ROUTINE, not a system, or programming. ANY routine that does not modulate or periodize that loading WILL quit working very quickly. Mike was a great guy that contributed a boatload to the lifting community, but he was very dogmatic and understood lifting programming very poorly.

If you want a good routine for some solid gains, use his routine in the second book, it was a good one. But please understand it is a routine only and does not account for the bodies adaptation and when the body adapts to the loading, it will quit adapting with size and strength gains.

I can show you how to make it work. But in doing so, it is no longer HD. But a low volume high intensity system.

Iron Addict

[llb4]

"everything works, nothing works for long!" - a smart man

muscle growth and strength is all about adaption and change.

[konerko14]

No legitimate questions from anyone?

[Liquidtensi0n]

IA... I have a question for you. You say that HIT from Mentzer's second book is worth doing until the gains stop? About how long does it actually keep working for? I am guessing it is individual but can you give a rough figure? Also, what is the exact title of the book in question? I looked on Amazon and there are quite a few titles by him. At some point I will give this HIT thing a shot if only for the sake of being able to say I've done it. If I end up putting effort into it though I want to be able to actually make some gains.

[konerko14]

If you want to make gains from Heavy Duty why are you asking Iron Addict for advice? He says you cant get results after 6-16 weeks. I however, actually have some knowledge on Mentzer.

[the iron addict]

IA... I have a question for you. You say that HIT from Mentzer's second book is worth doing until the gains stop? About how long does it actually keep working for? I am guessing it is individual but can you give a rough figure? Also, what is the exact title of the book in question? I looked on Amazon and there are quite a few titles by him. At some point I will give this HIT thing a shot if only for the sake of being able to say I've done it. If I end up putting effort into it though I want to be able to actually make some gains.

The best Mike Mentzer book/routine was "Heavy Duty".

http://www.mikementzer.com/

It is the second one down on the right.

How long will you get results? If you are a newbie, 16 weeks or so isn't out of the question. If you are advanced, six-eight weeks, Intermediate somewhere in the middle. His routines can be a great switch from higher volume routines and add some good strength and size gains, but it is hardly a system to use in the long-term without extensive modification. I like Defiants description of it: A non-optimized deload, which is what is amounts to for advanced lifters. There is nothing wrong with it as long as you understand the limitations. Most people do not.

Iron Addict

[konerko14]

Ive been using Mentzers principles for six months and Im still getting as good of results as I was when I started. You dont know anything about Heavy Duty, Iron Addict.

[the iron addict]

Well then you truly are a newbie

Anyone that beleives in linear progress in weight training soon discovers the truth.

IA

[Andalite]

Ive been using Mentzers principles for six months and Im still getting as good of results as I was when I started. You dont know anything about Heavy Duty, Iron Addict.

i dont why your going up against Iron Addict.....perhaps because your ignorant of the fact that IA is one of the most respected members in the game.....i am a member of his website and i have a journal out there too... (under a different name)..

i dont quite know why your aguing with him konerko14, he's more experienced than you and has helped more people than you ever will.....

what IA touches is gold and i believe what he says 100%.....

the reason why you started this thread was to popularize Heavy Duty...

now, i dont know how with only 6 months training you will be able to answer questions, but i'm sure you know your ****...yet, your not answering IA's question....

this is what he asked:

Why do trainees fail to make long term progress on Mike's system?

and you replied:

If you stop making progress after that short of time then you obviously arent applying the principles correctly. I read one of your earlier posts and you mocked Mentzer for saying a bodybuilder needs to lower the frequency and amount of sets as he gets stronger. As you get stronger, more stress continues to be put on your body since you are lifting heavier weights, therefore more time is needed to recover.

thats not the answer to IAs question....are you trying to say that a time will come when you will be forced to train once in 6 months for optimal muscle recovery.....?

Andalite

[Liquidtensi0n]

If you want to make gains from Heavy Duty why are you asking Iron Addict for advice? He says you cant get results after 6-16 weeks. I however, actually have some knowledge on Mentzer.

Because he knows way more than you. Sorry bud.