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    WEEK SEVENTY-FOUR :: What Non-Stimulant Supplements Would Be Best For Fat Loss?

    * Note: How can I win? Answer all questions in the order that they are asked.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    TOPIC: What Non-Stimulant Supplements Would Be Best For Fat Loss?

    For the week of: April 27th - May 3rd
    Wednesday @ Midnight Is The Final Cut (Mountain Time, US & Canada).

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Summer is here and we are all hoping to show our best set of abs ever. This question is for those who want to learn more about non-stimulant supplements because there are so many who react (rather uncomfortably) to the stimulant based ones.

    What non-stimulant supplements are the most effective for overall fat loss during the summer?

    How do you determine if you should be taking a non-stimulant supplement?

    Why would you avoid supplements that contain stimulants?

    Bonus: What IFBB Pro do you know that uses a non-stimulant fat loss supplement?

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Don't discuss any other topic in this section. ONLY discuss the question above.

    The best response will get $75 in credit to use in our online store! The other good responses will be used in an article on the main Bodybuilding.com site, with the poster's forum name listed by it. Become famous!

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    Lightbulb Non-Stimulant

    Hi here it is please chek it out and tell me if the file is working thx.
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    yeah it works, nice job
    Word up.
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    With the up-and-coming swimsuit season, everyone is turning their minds to the beaches and pools, and what they are going to look like. With the big summer cut approaching, there are many fat loss products on the market to buy, with many different strategies. Given that, it can be very difficult for the consumer to narrow down his or her choices, and choose an effective product, without losing more weight in the wallet than the body!

    How to know if you should avoid stimulants:

    For many of us though, stimulants are simply not a viable option. Some people are extremely sensitive to the effects of stimulant products, producing jittery feelings, anxiety, even some paranoia while on them. Additionally, people with high blood pressure, and certain heart conditions need to limit or avoid their usage of stimulants.

    As always, there is no substitute for consulting with a doctor before starting a training plan, whether it is fat loss or not. Your local doctor has years of medical training, quite likely a number of years of real-world experience, and can order tests for various parameters that are near impossible to measure on our own. Talk with a doctor who is willing to keep an open mind about your goal, and clearly discuss any fat loss products you are interested in, as well as a solid diet (the key to fat loss!).

    Why don't I typically use stimulants?

    I happen to react poorly to stimulant products, usually getting a jittery feeling that is not overly pleasant, and therefore avoid the usage of stimulants in my supplementation regime.

    What are some effective choices for fat loss?

    With the barrage of supplements on the market, it is a daunting task to pick effective fat loss supplements, and can be even more difficult to find stimulant-free ones. A good place to start is on bodybuilding.com, which has an entire section devoted to stimulant-free fat loss supplements. Lets dive into the heart of the matter, and broadly define some key components (including some general information on them), while not getting bogged down in the mechanics.

    Sesamin:

    Sesamin is a lignan (phytoestrogen) that has become very popular recently, and certainly has merits for fat loss. The story only gets better when we find out that sesamin extracts work very well when combined with omega fatty acids.

    What is a fatty acid, and just why are they so good? I really can't give full justice to the benefits of these fats in this article, but the American Heart association published some great information here, and Whole Health MD did the same.

    CLA:

    First off, CLA stands for "Conjugated Linoleic Acid." If you have read the two articles above, this term may look familiar. If it is unfamiliar, no worries. Typically, we find CLA in meats and dairy products, however at very low amounts, hence the reason to supplement with it [3]. A more complete discussion on CLA can be found in the CLA Info and Products section.

    ALA:

    ALA is the acronym for "Alpha Lipoic Acid," and is considered to be a highly beneficial acid, with a small twist. Technically, ALA is non-essential, meaning the body is able to produce it. The human is only able to produce a certain type of ALA, referred to as R-ALA (the R isomer form) [1]. ALA is used in the mitochondria (the powerhouse of our cells), and interestingly is also an anti-oxidant when there is spare ALA in the bloodstream, an added bonus. If that wasn't enough, there is the suggestion that ALA improves insulin sensitivity, and can help prevent the "crash" that can occur during caloric deficits [4]. Definitely one of the supplements worthy of note, especially when trying to lose fat. Again, Whole Health MD wrote a good article on it.

    What are some good products?

    I've selected just a few products that I believe would be a good addition to a fat loss program, based on various factors such as ingredients, dosages, and price. These are listed in no particular order, as some may utilize a different strategy to promote fat loss. There are of course many more options to choose from, which should be researched before purchasing.

    Designer Supplements, Glucophase XR:

    MAN, Vaporize

    Primaforce, Max CLA

    Avant Labs, SesaThin


    References:

    1. Clayton South Health Facts: ALA. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/southfacts_ala.htm

    2. American Heart Association www.americanheart.org

    3. David Tolson, Conjugated Linoleic Acid

    4. Designer Supplements, Glucophase XR, Condensed Writeup


    EDIT: Thanks to ajna_star, for pointing out an error in my writing.
    Last edited by TinyMan; 05-02-2006 at 02:19 PM.
    I remember being relevant.
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    Banned trix44's Avatar
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    Non-Stimulant fat-loss contest

    Here's my entry:

    What non-stimulant supplements are the most effective for overall fat loss during the summer?
    My favorite is a product called Tetrazene KMG-90. It contains a proprietary blend that consists of 3 key ingredients in promoting effective fat loss without any side effects or stimulants. It is recommended that alot of water should be consumed with this product, which is also good, especially in the summer, when there is an increased risk of dehydration.
    The ingredients are:
    Glucomannan, a plant fiber which is clinically proven to:
    Increases satiety, resulting in less cravings and food intake
    Decreases absorption of cholesterol
    Controls serum glucose and lipid levels.

    Glutamine, which directly prevents the cortisol-induced degradation of muscular contractile proteins, resulting in the preservation of muscle, which in my opinion, (muscle) is the best fat burning catalyst of all.

    Olive Leaf Extract, known to help counteract hypertension along with anti-arrhythmic and vasodilating effects.

    How do you determine if you should be taking a non-stimulant supplement?
    The most effective way is to get a complete physical from your doctor. Many people suffer from aliments they are unaware of. If you are in tune with your body, you can feel undesirable effects that certain supplements can put on your body.

    Why would you avoid supplements that contain stimulants?
    The main reason to avoid stimulants is sensitivities due to health conditions and concerns. While some people suffer from hypertension, others may simply not prefer the effects of stimulants that may range from headaches to shakiness. Personally, I decided not to take any stimulants because I suffer from IBS and stimulants add to my anxiety.

    Bonus: What IFBB Pro do you know that uses a non-stimulant fat loss supplement?
    As far as I know, Christian Lobarede uses it.
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  6. #6
    Registered User ajna_star's Avatar
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    TinyMan,

    alpha-lipoic acid is not an omega fatty acid... alpha LINOLENIC acid is
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  7. #7
    Registered User ajna_star's Avatar
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    The question of whether or not you want to take a stimulant supplement is usually a very clear one to most people… if you cant drink a cup of coffee without having an anxiety attack, then it’s a good idea to stay away from the typical ‘every stimulant known to man packed into one pill’ supplements… But simply because you can handle the stimulation, doesn’t mean it’s not going to have negative effects on your health. Things like high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and a family history of heart disease and stroke, can all increase the chances that stimulants will end up doing more damage than good.

    It has recently come to light that a genetic predisposition to slow caffeine metabolism may increase your risk of dying from a heart disease… and how would you know if your genes are giving a thumbs down to caffeine? You wont, and cant… BUT, you can make an educated guess. Check with your parents… did grandpa and great grandpa both die of heart related illness? If yes, then chances are these things have been passed down to you… most stimulants operate along the same pathways in the body, increasing blood pressure and decrease blood flow to the heart muscle…so don’t think you can just replace caffeine with something else and be safe. Visit a doctor once in a while! With a annual check up & blood test panel, your doctor should be able to tell you a lot about which risks are worth it, and which ones are not.

    Most stimulants are also physically addictive, and tolerance is built quite easy. Anyone who has tried to quit drinking coffee or popping caffeine pills in the morning can attest to just how bad the symptoms of caffeine withdrawal can be… symptoms can include headaches, lethargy, fatigue, depression, nausea and a host of other symptoms that are not fun to deal with. The best thing about non-stimulant fat loss aids is that they are non-addictive, and no tolerance is built… you will never have to deal with barely being able to open your eyes for a week after you quit using sesamin, and you will never have to double your dose for it to remain effective.


    There are 3 main categories of non-stimulant fat loss aids:

    Fats that burn fat:

    Sesamin: A phyto-chemical found in sesame seeds, while acting as a potent antioxidant, can also be effectively used to reduce body fat. It works by stimulating action in receptors that play a major role in fat metabolism, potentiating “fat loss and nutrient usage/expenditure/storage.” (1) It may also help to increase testosterone levels, and when combined with omega-3 fatty acids, it greatly increases omega-3’s anti-inflammatory properties by reducing the levels of their oxidation. (3)

    CLA: CLA is a trans fat(although researchers say it’s less harmful than other trans fats) that can help to “reduced body fat, particularly abdominal fat, changes in serum total lipids and decreased whole body glucose uptake” (4). Like the others CLA also has numerous health benefits including anti-tumor and antioxident properties.

    Synergy: a distinct syngery exists between sesamin, cla, and omega-3 fatty acids. Both their fat-loss promoting properties, and their positive health qualities are amplified when they are taken together. None of these are expensive, and its an easy way to increase healthy fat intake while losing body fat.



    Herbs that increase thermo genesis:

    Increased Thermo genesis (the production of heat by physiological processes) means increased calorie expenditure… which for most people, means less fat on their body.

    Green tea: While green tea does contain caffeine, decaffeinated extracts are extremely easy to find. Green tea extracts are one of the best ways to increase thermo genesis while adding an extremely healthy substance into your diet. The anti-oxidants in green tea have very strong anti-cancer properties & a myriad of other health benefits.

    Ginger: The common cooking spice contains phytochemicals that will increase thermo genesis. Ginger is also a powerful anti-inflammatory, and is one of the best digestive aids around… perfect for large meals or nausea. Ginger will increase your appetite if taken on an empty stomach or with small meals, so make sure to consume it with your larger meals.

    Cayenne: Cayenne pepper is probably the most powerful herb for increasing thermo genesis…so much so that most people will start to feel hot or sweat from a decent amount. It can also aid digestion and suppresses appetite. Cayenne is quite potent, and can cause some people digestive upset… if this happens search out a company that makes a ‘cold cayenne’, which is cayenne pepper combined with other herbs to make it more gentle on the stomach (which does not decrease its thermo genic properties)





    Herbs and Fibers that increase satiety (feeling full, reducing food cravings)

    Glucomannan: Glucomannan is a water-soluble dietary fiber. It can help you to feel increase satiety when taken before a meal. It has also been shown to improve cholesterol, and fasting glucose levels.

    Relora: Relora is a magnolia bark extract that when taken on a daily basis can be used to control stress related eating, create feeling of satiety, and reduce cortisol levels. Relora’s propencity towards induce weight loss, especially in women, is backed by numerous clinical studies





    1) http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jrod14.htm

    2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

    3) http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/Ms...S%20sesamin%20

    4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugated_linoleic_acid
    Last edited by ajna_star; 05-02-2006 at 11:55 PM.
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    non - stim

    this is my article after i edit it
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    WEEK 70-four: Which Non-stimulant Supplements Would Be Best For Fat Loss?
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    Greatwork aussie, heres mine
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  11. #11
    Registered User bitterplacebo's Avatar
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    WEEK SEVENTY-FOUR :: What Non-Stimulant Supplements Would Be Best for Fat Loss?

    Fat loss is a common concern among people, and while possible through pure determination and hard work, many are interested in shortcuts. Supplements offer exactly that to those with the means and desires to explore them. Some may consider them a cheat, but the fact is that everyone's body is different in terms of how they store fat. It may be easy to reach ideal fat levels naturally for certain individuals, while difficult for others. It's in our interest to understand why this may be the case.

    There are genetic components that influence a person's fat levels, some of which are predetermined. Environmental factors also exist and might include the types of foods that are available for consumption. Another interesting fact is that the human brain actively will tweak a person's metabolic rate in an effort to maintain a constant body fat level. The brain does this by monitoring fat levels through leptin, a hormone that fat cells release.

    Supplements can help people overcome some of these barriers and achieve fat reduction. Fat loss supplements include the following categories:

    Stimulants: drugs that increase the activity of the sympathetic nervous system.[3] Common supplements include caffeine and ephedra.

    Lipotropics: compounds that help break down body fat during metabolism.

    Thermogenics: increase body temperature and therefore metabolism. These supplements lead to more fat burned and possibly a depressed appetite.[2] Many stimulants are also thermogenics, but by definition, thermogenics are not necessarily stimulants. This category should be explored with some caution because of this.

    Appetite Suppressants: provide ways to trick the body into not feeling hungry. This will cause one to eat less and forcing fat to burn as an energy substitute.

    Hormone Manipulation: some supplements offer means to help naturally regulate testosterone and estrogen hormones. This is important because high levels of estrogen may increase fat storage, while testosterone does the opposite and also promotes muscle gain.

    What non-stimulant supplements are the most effective for overall fat loss during the summer?

    There are quite a lot of substances that have been shown to promote fat loss. The following is a list and description of specific substances, with my suggestions at the end. Many supplement products have a combination of these ingredients.

    Tribulus Terrestris – Increases the levels of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. This then stimulates production of testosterone, allowing inhibited fat storage and promotion of muscle growth.

    Mucuna Pruriens – Can increase production of human growth hormone, which will help in building lean mass and thus overall body fat percentage loss. It may also support testosterone levels.

    Calcium D-Glucarate & Diindolylmethan – Aromatase inhibitors. They help with estrogen metabolism and prevent the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

    Sesamin[1] – a natural lignan that acts as an activator at certain receptors that create enzymes involved in the oxidation of fatty acids. Taking sesamin will increase the oxidation of fat as well as inhibit a lipogenic, or fat storing, enzyme.

    Green Tea Extract[1] - Decreases dietary fat absorption as well as increases hormones that suppress appetite. It also has been shown to decrease the activity of a glucose transporter in fat tissue, but increasing its activity in muscle. There is also a thermogenic component, that reportedly increases metabolism by about 4%. Green tea does contain low levels of the mild stimulant, caffeine, but most extracts claim no increased heart rate or jittery side effects. There are green tea extract products available that are labelled caffeine free.

    Cissus Quadrangularis[1] – Helps block cortisol from breaking down muscle tissue. This may be important because dieting may cause higher levels of cortisol.

    Bocopa Minnieri[1] – Increases the concentration of a thyroid hormone, resulting in increased metabolism.

    Forslean (Coleus forshohlii)[1] – Mimics effect of TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone), thus stimulating metabolic increase.

    Chromium[2] – May help stabilize blood sugar and insulin, a hormone that draws glucose into cells. A stable level of insulin leaves less chance that glucose will be drawn into fat. It's important to note that while stabilizing blood sugar, it has not been shown to enhance their usage.

    L-Carnitine[2] – An amino acid that helps liver and muscle retain glycogen, the stored form of glucose (sugar). Logic would tell us that it's better to have it in these short term storage areas than in fat, the body's long term storage. L-Carnitine also may help fat metabolism. Acetyl-L-Carnitine is superior in terms of bioavailibility.[3]

    Chitosan[2]– Inhibits fat absorption in the intestines. There are reports that 30-40% of dietary fat is absorbed with chitosan, and the rest is eliminated. This obviously helps reduce calorie consumption.

    Probiotics/Bacteria – These aid in the healthy digestion of fats and vitamins. One example is lactobacillus acidophilus, found in yogurts. The body gets a lot of these only from foods, so supplements may help.

    Cholin – Essential for the process of breaking down fat for energy.[4]

    Inositol – Plays a role in breakdown of fats.

    Methionine – A lipotropic, helping with breakdown of fat during metabolism.

    Betaine – Another lipotropic substance.

    Hydroxycitric Acid – Studies have shown it to reduce appetite and inhibit fat production.

    Pyruvate – Increases cellular respiration, the amount of energy cells have available for use. It is known to start the Krebs cycle, an energy cycle that yields this ATP energy. Pyruvate may also help burn fat.

    Hoodia Gordonii – A type of cactus. Promising results have shown it to be a good natural appetite suppressant.

    7-Keto – Increases metabolic rate by means of manipulating the thyroid gland.

    Conjugated Linoleic Acid – A fatty acid that may play a role in the energy expenditure, oxidation of fat, and fat storage. A study in animals found a lean mass increase even with less food intake.

    Guggulsterones – Comes from a tree and stimulates the thyroid gland, leading to more fat being burned and less stored.

    5-HTP – A precursor to serotonin, a neurotransmitter that plays a role in appetite among other things, like sleep. May have unwanted effects since neurotransmitters play a role in many bodily functions.

    Phase 2 (Phaseolamin) – Derived from white kidney beans. It neutralizes an enzyme involved in starch digestion. This will basically reduce the available calories from consumed starches.

    Suggestions
    There are most likely many more supplemental substances out there that are not listed here. I encourage the reader to research more on their own to find the supplements best suited to their needs. Some helpful advice when searching would be to look for products with many ingredients from the four categories listed above:
    1) Lipotropics – Help digestion. Can include vitamins, minerals and enzymes.
    2) Thermogenics – Increase metabolism, often by stimulating the thyroid gland. Be careful as some may also be stimulants.
    3) Hormonal Regulators – Prevent fat storage and promote lean mass.
    4) Appetite Suppressant – Keeps food consumption down without the pains of hunger. The use of these will make “calorie blockers” unnecessary since overall consumption is lower anyway. Suppressants may also be better for psychological reasons like not having to stress out or worry that a “calorie blocking” pill is doing its job correctly.

    Recommendations
    Universal Animal Pak Multivitamin – Contains many lipotropics mentioned above and will also fill nutritional gaps created during dieting.

    Universal Animal Stak 2 – Helps with testosterone, estrogen, and cortisol regulation. It also has some vasodilating effects for better blood flow.

    Hoodia Gordonii – Assists with suppressing appetite through natural means. It sounded promising, however, I have no experience with any appetite suppressants.

    Green Tea Extract – Increases metabolism because it is a mild thermogenic. It is a pretty well known and researched substance and can be obtained caffeine-free.

    Warning: For many supplements, there is a recommended daily amount. Exceeding this for certain substances may be dangerous. Be sure to check this value, and use supplements safely according to guidelines. Good tables for reference:
    http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/etext/000105.html
    http://1stholistic.com/Nutrition/hol...on-dosages.htm
    Also if you have any medical conditions, check with a doctor before supplementing with anything.
    Also if taking any medications, check with a doctor, sometimes absorption of medication is influenced by supplements.
    Check with a doctor anyway if ever in doubt.
    Last edited by bitterplacebo; 05-03-2006 at 09:18 PM.
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    Registered User bitterplacebo's Avatar
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    How do you determine if you should be taking a non-stimulant supplement?

    In general stimulants may want to be avoided by people for whom the following conditions apply:
    -Is pregnant or nursing
    -Has high blood pressure
    -Has heart disease
    -Has diabetes
    -Has a mental or behavioral disorder
    -Is taking any medications

    Besides the physical effects of stimulants, it holds some influence of a person's mental wellness. People's tolerance of stimulants vary widely. If a particular person is extremely sensitive to them, they may not feel pleasant while supplementing with stimulants. Everyone's brain chemistry is different. Those with mental or behavioral disorders may make their condition worse with the use of stimulants, and would be advised to consult a doctor before use of any supplement.

    Why would you avoid supplements that contain stimulants?

    Even for individuals without any of the conditions mentioned in the previous section, stimulants are know to have many effects on anyone's body and behavior. Going back to the definition, we can see where some of these effects come from.

    Stimulants are substances that activate the “fight or flight” response, or the sympathetic nervous system. This is a function meant to help our bodies deal with an acute stress, such as running away from a hungry lion, so it makes sense that many long-term bodily functions are inhibited while this system is active. During stress, immune, sex, growth, and digestive functions are all slowed or shut down because more energy needs to be diverted to functions like muscle contraction to help get away from that lion. Using stimulants regularly can inflict a chronic stress on the body, inhibiting the mentioned body systems and can increase risk for ulcers, irritable bowl syndrome, as well as many other diseases and afflictions.

    Another issue is that the adrenal gland is being told to release adrenaline during the “fight or flight” response. This constant stimulation of the gland can lead to adrenal fatigue. The results of this symptom can be a lowered metabolism, overtraining, or difficulty with further fat loss. Also concerned with the adrenal gland are some of the steroid hormones, which we know are important for strength, stamina, and lean muscle mass.

    Other negative effects of stimulants:
    -Can alter sleep patterns
    -Irritability
    -Aggression
    -Nervousness
    -Dizziness
    -Sweating
    -Abdominal cramps
    -Rapid heartbeat
    -Headaches
    -Addiction: some stimulants, like caffeine, are addictive and stopping consumption can be difficult and can lead to withdrawal symptoms and depression.
    -Death: Stimulants will effect the cardiovascular system and body temperature. Combined with exercise additional strain is placed on the body, which may not be capable of enduring it. In extreme cases or with overdose, stimulants may cause death.

    Bonus: What IFBB Pro do you know that uses a non-stimulant fat loss supplement?

    It is definitely reasonable to turn to professional bodybuilders for advice. They have both the experience and the results as back up. So we might want to look at the kinds of non-stimulant fat loss supplements that these guys are using.

    IFBB Pros and some of their supplements:
    -Derik Farnsworth: takes multivitamins to make sure he gets every needed vitamin.
    -Mark Francois: recommends multi-vitamin minerals to supply all the correct nutrients for our body to function efficiently.
    -Rich Gaspari: has a line of supplements, one of which manipulates hormones like testosterone and estrogen.
    -Lee Priest: states that he supplements his diet with vitamins.
    -Eddie Robinson: Advocate of a whole, organic, and living foods diet, focusing on digestive enzymes and helpful bacteria.
    -Gunter Schlierkamp: uses vitamins and minerals to supplement diet, ensuring he receives all the nutrients necessary. Also supplements chromium, citrimax, L-carnitine, and green tea extract for fat burning, with other supplements for increasing testosterone.
    -Frank Zane: promotes vitamins, minerals, and digestive enzyme supplements.

    It's sometimes difficult to find out the supplements that bodybuilders use because they do not mention it up front. It may be that some feel guilty and do not want others to think they “cheated." Others are definitely comfortable and confident in their experiences and like to inform others about what diets, exercises, and supplement usage worked for them. I would think that a majority of professionals would openly answer personal supplemention questions, confirming that their only secret lies in their strong effort and dedication.

    References:
    1) www.blknutrition.com
    2) www.bodyandfitness.com
    3) en.wikipedia.org
    4) www.brainmac.demon.co.uk
    5) www.adrenalfatigue.org
    Last edited by bitterplacebo; 05-03-2006 at 09:19 PM.
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  13. #13
    Registered User MASTER175's Avatar
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    good stuff here is my entry
    Attached Files
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    Great job everyone, here's mine.
    Attached Files
    Striving for quality in everything that I do.

    Proverbs 21:5
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    Keto Maven Stonecoldtruth's Avatar
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    My Entry

    Strong Competition this week.

    Anyone else notice only 1st place pays out?

    Josh
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    Registered User Aussie LTD's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by stonecoldtruth
    Strong Competition this week.

    Anyone else notice only 1st place pays out?

    Josh
    i think it's still top 3, his sig has been like that for months.

    nice articles everyone.
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  17. #17
    just act upon it! pandastew's Avatar
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    I think you guys should consider how to stack the supplement you guys suggested and how much quantity for each day...etc...
    http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=774458

    ORIGINAL PLAN BY: pandastew

    What-I-Want-To-Try-Supplement: Scorch, Red ACID, Pure EC, Basic Cuts, T-REX, AMP, Melting Point
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by pandastew
    I think you guys should consider how to stack the supplement you guys suggested and how much quantity for each day...etc...
    With the differences in brands it is hard to provide such suggestions. Even things as trivial as fish oil are often provided in different pill dosages, so without recommending specific brands (something I personally think is the downfall of many good articles) it is hard to do this.
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    The one and only bigcalves's Avatar
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    Good ones this week. I didn't have a chance to enter, but some quality material this week!
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    Congrats!!!!

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    Prizes:
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    To use your credit, e-mail Will @ will@bodybuilding.com for more info.

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  21. #21
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    this is a great post. But what about BCAAS?
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  22. #22
    BAAAAA mcxk's Avatar
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    great thread
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