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  1. #1
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    Best ratio for a protein blend?

    I'm thinking 70:30, Milk Protein Isolate:Egg White Protein.

    No whey included specifically because you'd already be getting that with the milk isolate (20% of it). And we all know egg protein to be on of the original "gold standard" proteins with an incredible amino-acid-makeup and overall BV. Also, egg white protein contains "[a] high level of sulfur which is essential to various hormonal pathways within the body", to quote TP.

    The milk isolate (keep in mind: 80% casein) because, well, to quote Alan Aragon:
    In research done by Demling & DeSanti [Ann Nutr Metab. 2000;44(1):21-9], resistance trained healthy subjects who received a casein-dominant blend had approximately 100% better strength & lean mass gain along with another 100% greater loss of fat compared to the comparison group who received straight whey without casein. It doesn't get any clearer than this.
    And I agree--it simply doesn't get any clearer than that. If anyone wants to look into the literature (Phosphate bond, et. al.), I would really like to see what you have to say. Beyond this, the obvious inclusion of three different protein sources: whey, casein, and egg offer ultimate bioavailability and differentation in utilization rates and prolonging blood-amino-acid content.
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  2. #2
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    The referenced literature.


    Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.

    Demling RH, DeSanti L.

    Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA 02115, USA. rhdemling@partners.org

    We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate. Copyright 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

    PMID: 10838463 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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  3. #3
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
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    Your mix looks pretty good and you found a study on fat cops! I usually go with the micellar casien, egg white, and whey isolate blend. I throw the BCAA's in there for ****s and giggles.
    Last edited by deserusan; 04-06-2006 at 10:32 PM.
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    Heh, I thought it was kind of funny myself.

    I don't know, I was just customizing mixes on TP and thought I'd create a thread to get some input and have some interesting discussion.

    Hmm, they're using Hydrolyzed Casein in the study--how much would you say that differs from the casein found in MPI? Because, I know for one thing, the price differs greatly...

    $ 14.95/lb. vs. $ 6.79/lb. Damn.
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  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by cakedonkey
    Heh, I thought it was kind of funny myself.

    I don't know, I was just customizing mixes on TP and thought I'd create a thread to get some input and have some interesting discussion.

    Hmm, they're using Hydrolyzed Casein in the study--how much would you say that differs from the casein found in MPI? Because, I know for one thing, the price differs greatly...

    $ 14.95/lb. vs. $ 6.79/lb. Damn.
    I think hydrolyzed casien or any other hydrolyzed protein is best utilized post workout. My understanding of hydrolyzed protein is that the polypeptide bonds are broken down into di and tri-peptides. In theory they are absorbed much faster because digestion usually has to break down the large polypeptides. Here is some good info on hydrolyzed protein from an editor of Muscular Developement:

    Originally Posted by Anssi Manninen
    I dont know what kind of whey hydrolysate MT utilizes, but it appears to work, at least according to deserusan. You see, there are hundreds of protein hydrolysates available in bulk. One used by some "leading" companies is made by Davisco. While pleasant tasting, it has very low degree of hydrolysis and thus contains mainly large peptides. So, it offers no benefits in terms of post-exericise recovery. I mean that it does not offer any advantages over high-quality "regular" (non-hydrolyzed) whey protein concentrate. However, if the stuff contains largely di- and tripeptides (small peptides), one can almost feel that it goes through the body much faster than regular protein powders and much much faster than food proteins (e.g., meat). This means faster amino acid delivery as well as stronger hormal responses (e.g., insulin, GH). On the other hand, if the degee of hydrolysis is too high, the powder contains lot of free form amino acids. They are not as rapidly absorbed as small peptides. Also, most free form amino acids taste like donkey ball extract

    In general, it is the kinetics of absoption (rather than net absorption) that determines greater nutritional value of protein hydrolysates containing mostly di- and tripepides. However, there appears to be some advantages in net absoption (BV), but this is well-documented only in starved rats. One could speculate that such studies can be extrapolated to gym rats following very-low-calorie diets (pre-contest diet).

    Btw, collagen hydrolysate is absolutely useless source of protein.
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  6. #6
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    That was an interesting post. He's a damn smart guy, I recently printed out a PDF from sportsnutrition.org by him, titled "Is A Calorie Really A Calorie?" concerning how efficent low-carb diets really are for fat loss. It was a great read.

    Back on topic, that's kind of what I figured with the hydrolyzed stuff: it's basically pre-digested, in a sense. The question would simply be then, how much of a difference does it make to its non-hydrolyzed counterpart? I think, considering the price difference, it better be more effective.

    Another topic of interest, though TP doesn't offer it, what is the verdict on Colostrum? It's supposedly some pretty amazing stuff, albeit very pricey.
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    Actually, screw it.

    100% Chunky Monkey Isolate is the route I'm going. Thanks anyway, guys.
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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by cakedonkey
    I'm thinking 70:30, Milk Protein Isolate:Egg White Protein.
    I'm thinking 1 scoop whey and 1 cup milk

    1) Mix
    2) Drink
    3) Repeat every 2 hours
    4) PROFIT !!
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  9. #9
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    Totally agree with that general idea of thinking, pu12, though I do think it's kind of interesting to look into the "fine details" of some of this stuff. More specifically: the science.

    In the end, your suggestion works as good as any, no doubt. But, if you were to design a protein blend (e.g. @ TP) what would yours be?
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    Originally Posted by cakedonkey
    ... if you were to design a protein blend (e.g. @ TP) what would yours be?
    If they gave me free shipping instead of charging me 2 arms and a leg like last time...... Whey Protein Isolate + Black Star Labs Fruit Punch flavoring system
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  11. #11
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    Damn, I've still yet to try that. Loved the strawberry, though.
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  12. #12
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    Milk protein isolate is some interesting stuff. I wish there were more research on this.

    Whey protein has some good glutathione boosting effects due to the cysteine and probably due to the unique combination of the amino acids in it.

    There is a lot going on with whey. It really has some unique physiological effects. I want to say it seems to have an omega 3 type effect and there is probably some overlap (lowering of homocysteine and angiotensin II etc)

    I like the blends myself but its more of a subjective feeling more than anything else.
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    Thanks a ton for the input Phosphate. Always appreciate your input. Let's see:

    With the milk isolate study, what did you think of the overall conclusion of such superior results as opposed to whey? I think that says a lot for the milk isolate, and perhaps the fact that it enhances nitrogen retention to higher degree (as it keeps blood-amino-acid concentrations higher for a much longer time, I think seven hours in some studies?).

    Now, beyond that, when we're talking about milk isolate, it is just the actual protein fraction of the milk--or, are we getting the "secret subfractions and growth-factors" I always hear people talk about. Moreover, what are they exactly refering to? I remember Loki saying a while back that "there is more to milk than macronutrients and calcium". I think he's referring to the "hidden growth factors".

    I think it just totally "makes sense" that a protein blend would be better. If you're staying anabolic for a longer amount of time, and are getting a wider variety of amino acids and an overall more bioavailable and varied protein intake, all other things remaining the same, gains could only be better... right?

    Finally, without doubt, whey is the ****. It's a staple in everyone's regmine for a reason. It's dirt-cheap, and it's just a well-rounded, excellent protein. Interesting with the whey vs. fish oil point, by the way. And, what would your thoughts be on [Bovine?] Colostrum?
    Last edited by cakedonkey; 04-07-2006 at 01:06 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Phosphate bond
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&li st_uids=11278377&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum
    Just a fyi the shorter version will work:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11278377
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    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    Just a fyi the shorter version will work:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11278377

    It must be my Firefox browser that keeps giving me the long version. The weird thing is the short version doesn't work when I use it (although your link does work). Its got to be a Firefox browser specific problem. Thanks for letting me know.
    Last edited by Phosphate bond; 04-07-2006 at 01:58 AM.
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    Originally Posted by cakedonkey
    Thanks a ton for the input Phosphate. Always appreciate your input. Let's see:

    With the milk isolate study, what did you think of the overall conclusion of such superior results as opposed to whey? I think that says a lot for the milk isolate, and perhaps the fact that it enhances nitrogen retention to higher degree (as it keeps blood-amino-acid concentrations higher for a much longer time, I think seven hours in some studies?).

    Now, beyond that, when we're talking about milk isolate, it is just the actual protein fraction of the milk--or, are we getting the "secret subfractions and growth-factors" I always hear people talk about. Moreover, what are they exactly refering to? I remember Loki saying a while back that "there is more to milk than macronutrients and calcium". I think he's referring to the "hidden growth factors".

    I think it just totally "makes sense" that a protein blend would be better. If you're staying anabolic for a longer amount of time, and are getting a wider variety of amino acids and an overall more bioavailable and varied protein intake, all other things remaining the same, gains could only be better... right?

    Finally, without doubt, whey is the ****. It's a staple in everyone's regmine for a reason. It's dirt-cheap, and it's just a well-rounded, excellent protein. Interesting with the whey vs. fish oil point, by the way. And, what would your thoughts be on [Bovine?] Colostrum?
    I know nothing about colostrum (but its been around forever)

    Milk protein isolate is just skim milk with all the lactose removed and probably some of the extra calcium too. Whatever is in cows milk you are going to get it basically (obviously no fat though)

    I never really used this stuff till I came here and found "TP". Speaking of TP I need to order from them again. I've been getting whey fruity so I haven't been using it for a while. I wish we still had "sustained protein" since I'm in a dieting phase.

    Let me see if I can find an interesting abstract I found before.
    Last edited by Phosphate bond; 04-07-2006 at 02:21 AM.
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    Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2003 May;6(3):301-6. Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Type and timing of protein feeding to optimize anabolism.

    Mosoni L, Mirand PP.

    Protein Metabolism and Nutrition Unit, Inra, Theix, France. mosoni@clermont.inra.fr

    PURPOSE OF REVIEW: The delivery rate of amino acids to an organism significantly affects protein anabolism. The rate can be controlled by the type and the timing of feeding. Our aim was to bring new insights to the way they may act. RECENT FINDINGS: During young and adult ages, when food supply is liberal, subjects can adapt to various modes of protein feeding. However, during food restriction, protein anabolism is favored when the delivery of amino acids is evenly distributed over the day, either with frequent meals, or through the use of slowly absorbed proteins like casein. In contrast, during aging, quickly absorbed protein sources become more efficient. During recovery after exercise, the timing of protein feeding after the end of exercise may or may not influence its anabolic effect, depending on the subject's age and the type of exercise. SUMMARY: The synchronization of variations in anabolic capability with amino acid supply partly explains the effects of the type and timing of protein feeding. This effect is modulated by the amount of amino acids required to increase whole-body proteins and by the signaling properties of some amino acids to stimulate protein synthesis. Indeed, the anabolic effect of amino acids is determined by their interaction with other anabolic factors (other nutrients or physiological factors, whose efficiency is mainly related to their effect on protein degradation). It is clear that benefits can be obtained from adapted protein feeding patterns.

    Publication Types:

    * Review


    PMID: 12690263 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    that was the abtract.
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    Interesting literature. Thanks for that, Phosphate.

    Why don't you think there is more research available on this?
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    Up And Out cakedonkey's Avatar
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    Bumping this. Anyone out there feel free to throw in anymore input. I'm all ears.

    I still stand by my ratio as a very effective blend.
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    Originally Posted by cakedonkey
    Bumping this. Anyone out there feel free to throw in anymore input. I'm all ears.

    I still stand by my ratio as a very effective blend.

    I personally wouldn't change anything, the 70:30 ratio you posted sounds good. Be aware that the sulphur content in the egg protein may give you some GI problems. Egg protein does not taste that great and is a little salty. Make sure you get the BSL flavoring and ask for a double dose. Now if you start utilizing BCAA/EAA around workout, in my opinion, this would be the only protein you would ever need.
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    Originally Posted by Dimitar
    Now if you start utilizing BCAA/EAA around workout, in my opinion, this would be the only protein you would ever need.
    That's true considering the BCAA content of whey protein is overhyped anyway. There is 23 grams of BCAA in whey per 100 grams of aminos. Milk protein isolate is 21 grams BCAA per 100 grams of aminos.

    Whey is interesting stuff though. It does a few other things too besides being a slightly better source of BCAAs. However , I like the blends myself except postworkout.
    Last edited by Phosphate bond; 04-09-2006 at 11:36 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Phosphate bond
    However , I like the blends myself except postworkout.
    Over the past few years I have noticed much better response from my body with blends. Some say it isn't worth the cost, but I definately am stuck on blends now. I also feel some don't understand you don't need to buy blended protein if money is an issue. Whey + milk is blend for example.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
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    Hey that's really cool. Can you post the link that Alan Aragon posted this on? I'd love to read it to understand a little better
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