Serious Discussion On HIT/Heavy Duty/Abbreviated Training

[Justin-27]

Of note (because I feel it coming):

-I have no interest hearing the following...
"Viator, Mentzer, etc trained with Jones, they got huge, blah, blah"
---Look, Viator and Mentzer were effing houses (not to mention on Dbol) prior to training with Jones, that's like taking 1992 Jordan, having him train with a different coach, then giving that coach's methods all the credit when Jordan makes baskets. JORDAN MADE BASKETS BEFORE!!!!

^ If that analogy doesn't make sense. You're dumb. The end.

[Billy-Boy]

I will check out the routine.

So are you saying that the only reason that HIT may not work for some people is because they might not like it? aka their mind?

What about many biological differences?

Insulin output
insulin sensitivity
Thyroid output
Thyroid sensitivity
Testosterone production
Testosterone/hormone sensitivity
Testosterone to estrogen conversion
SHGB sensitivity
Testosterone to DHT conversion
Estrogen sensitivity
Growth Hormone output
Growth Hormone sensitivity
IGF output
IGF sensitivity
Digestive capability
Basic protein synthesis ability
Muscle fiber composition

Would these not have a factor on which program to use also?

I have answered what I have answered, sorry if you do not like or agree with the answers.
Anyway if you want to find out what HIT is all about then do it. You can talk and argue and debate etc, but when you DO it you then can truly JUDGE it. That is what I did and I am still doing it, you may not keep doing it, but that would be your choice.

Funny sometimes I wonder if they are more afraid that it does work if they try than if it does not work. If it works then they have to back track all their theories, oh and they will lose their freinds being counted as a HIT Jedi Lol, Hahahahah.

Billy

[Billy-Boy]

I will check out the routine.

So are you saying that the only reason that HIT may not work for some people is because they might not like it? aka their mind?

Britlifter, I see you too have a little problem reading posts. I said I believe HIT WILL work for everyone, but that it would not be optimial for those that do not like it, this is because if you do not like something, you will not perform it well, so I answered your question NO it is not optimial for all.

Ding!

[Justin-27]

I have answered what I have answered, sorry if you do not like or agree with the answers.
Anyway if you want to find out what HIT is all about then do it. You can talk and argue and debate etc, but when you DO it you then can truly JUDGE it. That is what I did and I am still doing it, you may not keep doing it, but that would be your choice.

Funny sometimes I wonder if they are more afraid that it does work if they try than if it does not work. If it works then they have to back track all their theories, oh and they will lose their freinds being counted as a HIT Jedi Lol, Hahahahah.

Billy

Been there, done that....for 3 years. You should read before posting, I already said that.

[Billy-Boy]

I've read every one of the below articles. You should too. I wouldn't call anyone well rounded until they read, learn, and implement some of Poliquin's principles. His training is actually based on RESEARCH, athletic training, bodybuilding training, his personal successes on his own routines, and most of all COMMON SENSE!

http://www.t-nation.com/ALSAuthor.do...iquin&pageNo=1 (<----100 Poliquin articles, learn boy, LEARN!)

If HIT were so fantastic:
1) Gymnasts would use it
2) Pro Bodybuilders would use it (more than 3)
3) Powerlifters would use it
4) Strongmen would use it (can you imagine doing one maximal log lift, twice a month? LMAO! hahahahaha)
5) ANYONE that wants to get neural adaptations, and the bodies ability to get better at a movement will train that movement all the time.

^And don't pull out the "HIT is for building the most muscle" BS, you ever see the people I mention above? They have PLENTY of muscle, I assure you of that.

I ask how you view the Marines pull up program that takes novices that can only do 5 pull ups to doing 20+ dead hang, wide grip, pronated grip pull ups in 6 months. Want to know how they do that? TRAIN THEM EVERY DAY! OH NOES O-V-E-R-T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G!!!!

Look, we cannot help you have the testosterone of a 32 year old, lactating pregnant woman, but don't force your poor training on us that actually want to progress in this game.

Justin.....destroying HIT jedis, one post at a time.

N-e-x-t./

I was not going to respond to you, but your error his is typical. You assume because the masses or the majority do or do not do something they (the masses must be right). This thinking has been proven wrong a million times in almost everything.

The majority are mostly going the wrong way (the least optimal) and always have. The path of least resistance is the way of the masses, true weight training also.

Now conserning you. You admit to having done HIT for 3 years I believe you said. So your foundation was HIT. Whatever tiff you got into with your HIT trainer is anybodys guess but you got turned off. Now the way I see it is that it was your HIT training that built you the base, and you contuinue to train heavier than most volume gym weasels which has helped you also.
Combined with your age starting and time training.

Now I will give you credit your doing well in bodybuilding, but you should not be so vile against HIT you should show some respect, as it has given you an edge over what those who have never done it.
Billy

[Billy-Boy]

Been there, done that....for 3 years. You should read before posting, I already said that.

That was for Britlifter

[Justin-27]

Britlifter, I see you too have a little problem reading posts. I said I believe HIT WILL work for everyone, but that it would not be optimial for those that do not like it, this is because if you do not like something, you will not perform it well, so I answered your question NO it is not optimial for all.

Ding!

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read....of course you'd say that....putting the blame on those that "don't like it." What that implies is it will work for everyone...if they like it. That's piss poor reasoning.

I'm still waiting for you to address my points.....crickets chirping.

Que Queen tune....."Another HITer bites the dust!"

[Justin-27]

I was not going to respond to you, but your error his is typical. You assume because the masses or the majority do or do not do something they (the masses must be right). This thinking has been proven wrong a million times in almost everything.

The majority are mostly going the wrong way (the least optimal) and always have. The path of least resistance is the way of the masses, true weight training also.

Now conserning you. You admit to having done HIT for 3 years I believe you said. So your foundation was HIT. Whatever tiff you got into with your HIT trainer is anybodys guess but you got turned off. Now the way I see it is that it was your HIT training that built you the base, and you contuinue to train heavier than most volume gym weasels which has helped you also.
Combined with your age starting and time training.

Now I will give you credit your doing well in bodybuilding, but you should not be so vile against HIT you should show some respect, as it has given you an edge over what those who have never done it.
Billy

Not quite.

I did HIT, but I gained on a 3x a week full body routine, volume style. Not sure where you got that I did HIT from the start, I've been at this for 11 years, the 3 was near the middle.

I didn't have a "Trainer" I don't need anyone else to push me, I'm self motivated. So no "trainer" put me off, I know all there is to know about HIT...read probably hundreds of books/articles on it. I'm past that point in my life (thanks goodness).

Where you are off (With the masses argument), is that we are talking BILLIONS of dollars on the line here with athletics, and competitions. No way, no how with our bright human minds, are we just "following trends" when training volume style. Your analogy is like saying "those rich people just copy one another and all buy BMW's....not because BMW's are better, just to follow the masses." Even if that were true, that doesn't take away from the fact that a BMW is superior machine to other makes, making it a better choice anyways.

I feel like this is probably a losing battle with one of you HIT Jedis, but hey I tried to open your closed mind.

[Justin-27]

And it's not like "volume training" isn't constantly adapting, constantly being revised to do even better than it has.

So, again, what are your thoughts on how Marines can do 20 pull ups training daily? Is it not true that should be overtraining? How often should one do pull ups to better our armed forces method?

[Billy-Boy]

Not quite.

Your analogy is like saying "those rich people just copy one another and all buy BMW's....not because BMW's are better, just to follow the masses." Even if that were true, that doesn't take away from the fact that a BMW is superior machine to other makes, making it a better choice anyways.

I feel like this is probably a losing battle with one of you HIT Jedis, but hey I tried to open your closed mind.

This is my point exactly. BMW's are not the car of the masses, HIT is not the weight training system of the masses. BMW's are bought by people doing what only a minority do, they are diffrent and earn diffrent because of this.

They are High Intensity people and they drive BMW's. You just might be a HIgh intensity person yourself, and I would bet "the house" you built your muscles using High intensity in the gym, maybe higher volume than some Hitters but muscle grows as a response to stress of intensity placed on it through the recovery and growth process.

Billy

[GuyJin]

Billy,

Assuming you're not the same "HIT-Jedi" who's already been banned twice from this forum, here's a bit of info. I did HIT for about seven years straight, and at first, I thought it great. Weights went up, strength went up--I was happy as a pig in sh-t...

Then I plateaued. Big time. Resorted to the intensity techniques that HIT favors: rest-pause, negs, neg-accentuated; you name it, I did it. Even tried CT--got nowhere fast. As Justin put it, been there and done that. I switched back to "volume"--if you can call full-body, NTF training of about 15 sets total for one workout "volume"--and started to gain again. For my age, my gains are modest at best, but they ARE gains, so I am satisfied. Had I kept on doing SSTF HIT, I'd probably have given it all up.

Does that mean HIT is worthless? No, not really, but if it works so well, everyone would be doing it. For many average trainees it will work IF cycled properly. For athletes such as powerlifters, O weightlifters and the like, it is next to useless, IMHO. They do not use it because it relies too much on linear progression and does not incorporate deloading. Saying to do one or two NTF workouts a week is a bit disingenuous--the CNS will not recover fully, and saying it will work for those mentioned is foolish at best; never known anyone in those two sports to use HIT, especially O lifters. Do you seriously think an O lifter would do power cleans and presses with huge weight slowly and smoothly? Please get real.

As for HIT not being well-known, far from it--there are a number of HIT forums around, Dr. Dardens's being the best known, so the info IS out there.

I am not against HIT; never have been, and I still use it when finishing off a four to five week cycle of training, much like fbcoach does. It's a great change of pace. But, is it the be-all and end-all of training? For me, no.

One last thing: Genetics. Can't change 'em. (Mine stink). People argue over the "two years to reach your genetic potential" idea that (maybe) Mentzer put out. What I THINK he meant was that after two years of hard training if you don't show very large increases, then your potential MAY be somewhat lacking, although I'm not sure about that. My point is this: If you have the requisite genetic profile, you'll grow no matter which programme you use. Mentzer and Viator were/are well above the norm. And they juiced. And they did volume well before they did HIT. That gives any argument about one programme being better than another a negative "HIT" as far as I'm concerned.

So, don't get the impression that I'm TOTALLY against HIT--I am not. It just lacks too many essentials to classify it as a superior way of training. If you feel good doing it, fine--do it and have fun. But don't try to sell it as the best thing around. It isn't.

[Justin-27]

This is my point exactly. BMW's are not the car of the masses, HIT is not the weight training system of the masses. BMW's are bought by people doing what only a minority do, they are diffrent and earn diffrent because of this.

They are High Intensity people and they drive BMW's. You just might be a HIgh intensity person yourself, and I would bet "the house" you built your muscles using High intensity in the gym, maybe higher volume than some Hitters but muscle grows as a response to stress of intensity placed on it through the recovery and growth process.

Billy

Err, you have a problem with thinking as you read, aka reading comprehension. I said BMW's ARE the car for the rich masses. You are incorrect, people with money buy BMW's....they are the volume training, not the HIT.

And, for the 3rd time, the "house" I built was from squatting and deadlifting twice a week....not slow reps on a leg extension machine. Do you have a single open minded brain cell that actually fuking COMPREHENDS what you read?! I have to repeat myself 14x for you to not attribute it all the HIT...jeezus H.

[Billy-Boy]

Billy,

"I did HIT for about seven years straight, and at first, I thought it great. Weights went up, strength went up--I was happy as a pig in sh-t...

Then I plateaued. Big time. Resorted to the intensity techniques that HIT favors: rest-pause, negs, neg-accentuated; you name it, I did it. Even tried CT--got nowhere fast.

Thanks for the info GuyJin,

So you gained for 7 years then bam you HIT the roof so to speak. I wonder....7 years is a long time to make great gains...think you might have HIT your genetic potential after the 7 years of great gains with HIT?

reason I ask is you said you thought you have ...not so good genetics. I believe it was possible that is what happened. If you tried everything and the gains stopped I would say you HIT the limit and should have gone with the consolated routine for muscle strength and size maintaince, and focused more on strengthening your cardio and reaching lower fat % for optimal health. I mean not all of us are going to compete in bodybuilding contests and expect to become muscle monsters or grow mass forever. There is a genetic limit.

I said in another post that with HIT reaching your genetic potential is possible in a few years, and that is good news, in that the goal was accomplished. The goal for all bodybuilders should be to reach their genetic potential, few ever will but I believe you did.

Just my view.
Billy

[Justin-27]

Thanks for the info GuyJin,

So you gained for 7 years then bam you HIT the roof so to speak. I wonder....7 years is a long time to make great gains...think you might have HIT your genetic potential after the 7 years of great gains with HIT?

reason I ask is you said you thought you have ...not so good genetics. I believe it was possible that is what happened. If you tried everything and the gains stopped I would say you HIT the limit and should have gone with the consolated routine for muscle strength and size maintaince, and focused more on strengthening your cardio and reaching lower fat % for optimal health. I mean not all of us are going to compete in bodybuilding contests and expect to become muscle monsters or grow mass forever. There is a genetic limit.

I said in another post that with HIT reaching your genetic potential is possible in a few years, and that is good news, in that the goal was accomplished. The goal for all bodybuilders should be to reach their genetic potential, few ever will but I believe you did.

Just my view.
Billy

Are you dense? He SAID he switched to volume and is making current gains OVER WHAT HIT GOT HIM TO! Fuk u dum.

[Billy-Boy]

Err, you have a problem with thinking as you read, aka reading comprehension. I said BMW's ARE the car for the rich masses. You are incorrect, people with money buy BMW's....they are the volume training, not the HIT.

And, for the 3rd time, the "house" I built was from squatting and deadlifting twice a week....not slow reps on a leg extension machine. Do you have a single open minded brain cell that actually fuking COMPREHENDS what you read?! I have to repeat myself 14x for you to not attribute it all the HIT...jeezus H.

The rich are the masses????
Do you know what percentage of Americans earn $20,000-35,000 per year? this is the masses (majority) High percentage maybe 70%

Then from $50,000-75,000 per year say 15%, it drops drastically maybe then from 75,000-120,000 per year. Maybe 10% Tiny percentage. Then from 120,000-500,000 per year smaller still. remmainder 5% or less

Get the point?

[Billy-Boy]

Are you dense? He SAID he switched to volume and is making current gains OVER WHAT HIT GOT HIM TO! Fuk u dum.

So it OK to cuss, use offensive language, make personal attacks, flame and so on, on this board??

I guess so as long as the cussing and flaming is against HIT trainers correct? Prove me wrong, show use you will follow the rules and ban someone who is breaking the rules, when he is doing it against a HIT trainer, prove you are not partial.

Hmmmm

[Billy-Boy]

read this, looks like HIT to me, yeah the reps go to 15, but they are training to failure.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lobliner28.htm

This is what I have been seeing, a move to more intense training, less frequency, lower volume, more training to failure among top natural bodybuilders.

This is not suprising as without the drugs, one needs to train with intensity, which requires less volume and frequency to achieve real gains.

[fbcoach]

I have answered what I have answered, sorry if you do not like or agree with the answers.
Anyway if you want to find out what HIT is all about then do it. You can talk and argue and debate etc, but when you DO it you then can truly JUDGE it. That is what I did and I am still doing it, you may not keep doing it, but that would be your choice.

Funny sometimes I wonder if they are more afraid that it does work if they try than if it does not work. If it works then they have to back track all their theories, oh and they will lose their freinds being counted as a HIT Jedi Lol, Hahahahah.

Billy

I used it....it doesn't work for the long haul, but I still use it at the end of a training cycle.

You are so full of BS, I don't know where to begin. HIT does NOT believe in cycling. AJ and Mentzer both stated that vehemently. It is based on a single-factor/linear theory. That in itelf says it is against cycling. HIT theorists believe that you train a muscle to failure..let it rest and recover..then train it again....NOT IN THE REAL WORLD BUDDY!! This is just an ignorant statement with absolutely no knowledge of the CNS..endocrine system..or exercise physiology. Now here's a proposal for you Billy-Bob....show some progress pics, a journal, or even make something up....YOU WON'T. It's in the jedi tradition to instigate, provoke, insult, then do what they do best....TALK A BUNCH OF MADE-UP PHILOSOPHICAL BS!!

[momofo]

Billy-Boy don't worry about these guys,they like to troll hit threads and start trouble because someone disagrees with them.
just like fbcoach who keeps imagining things and has some paranoia about a Fishguy or something weird like that sending him emails from the ocean, lmao.

[Justin-27]

The rich are the masses????
Do you know what percentage of Americans earn $20,000-35,000 per year? this is the masses (majority) High percentage maybe 70%

Then from $50,000-75,000 per year say 15%, it drops drastically maybe then from 75,000-120,000 per year. Maybe 10% Tiny percentage. Then from 120,000-500,000 per year smaller still. remmainder 5% or less

Get the point?

I say goddamn you ARE DENSE!

I will spell it out for you.

OF THE RICH! A BMW IS THE "VOLUME" CHOICE! I am NOT talking about Rich vs poor. For fuks sake these days you clowns are without common sense.

[N@tural1]

Britlifter, I see you too have a little problem reading posts. I said I believe HIT WILL work for everyone, but that it would not be optimial for those that do not like it, this is because if you do not like something, you will not perform it well

I see the others have laid into your ridiculous line of reasoning enough.

LOL at your reasoning that the only reason why HIT wont be optimal for a person is because they may not like it, man thats funny!!!

All thats left for me to say is NEGGED for bad attitude and sarcasm and quite frankly.. garbage reasoning

[fbcoach]

Billy-Boy don't worry about these guys,they like to troll hit threads and start trouble because someone disagrees with them.
just like fbcoach who keeps imagining things and has some paranoia about a Fishguy or something weird like that sending him emails from the ocean, lmao.

There you go again....talking to one of your alter EGOS. You will find nowhere have I ever posted anything that I can't back up. As in typical jedi tradition, you spout off while avoiding contributing anything useful,other than some regurgitated philosophical BS. But again Mr. Fish, thank you for making my posts such a high priority.

[momofo]

fbcoach youve been called out so many times its not even funny anymore watching you get owned on this and other sites, yep you know which sites im talking about .

[all pro]

britlifter, I read another thread that you started with your appeal to build a bridge between HITters and volume weight trainers. I agree with you fully and appreciate what you wrote; in fact that post you made in your thread, caused me to register here.

I am going to assume you were sincere with what you said and because of this I am going to make you a proposal that will tell you once and for all and answer all your questions and doubts about HIT training forever hopefully.

I propose to you that you try HIT and run a thread documenting your experience here on bb.com. I believe you will post the actual results honestly. With this proposal to be fair to the HIT method I am asking that you perform the workout I am currently using which if you agree I will email to you. During the time you are doing HIT I would like to advise you by email and I expect 100% effort and to take my advice as your personal trainer, I will charge you nothing.

If you will agree, I PROMISE and Guarantee you will see new progress in strength and muscle mass above that which you now have within 6 weeks, you will notice sizable strength gains after only 2 weeks or sooner with the muscle gains noticeable within 6 weeks possibly sooner. I also PROMISE you that you will not hit a plateau that we can not break through within 6 weeks, and in fact you would find the gains would continue for the next 3-5 years without a lot of changes needed to be made following my program.

So why not try you have nothing to lose and everything to gain (muscle and strength) that is. For the sake of argument, if HIT does not produce the results I have claimed you can simply go back to what you were doing with a new experience and knowledge under you belt.

So what do you say britlifter,

Billy

What you are proposing is a six week deload. If Britlifter has been pushing hard for the last few months he will respond imideatly to the reduced volume and intensity level (% of 1 rep max). That's the same scam that had me doing HIT for 6 months. I responded big time for about the first 8 weeks. After that it was all down hill.

[fbcoach]

fbcoach youve been called out so many times its not even funny anymore watching you get owned on this and other sites, yep you know which sites im talking about .

Hahahahahaha....this is the only site I have posted on in months. Other than that, I always felt welcomed at Pure.HIT..and at your site, I felt like the local GENIOUS amongst the VILLAGE OF IDIOTS

[fbcoach]

What you are proposing is a six week deload. If Britlifter has been pushing hard for the last few months he will respond imideatly to the reduced volume and intensity level (% of 1 rep max). That's the same scam that had me doing HIT for 6 months. I responded big time for about the first 8 weeks. After that it was all down hill.

I've already explained this to Mr. Fish....I'm afraid it's too far above his pointy little head

[patleb940]

Wow, is Billy Boy the new Hit Troll. Too bad, I thought he was going to be a goo guy when he first started posting... R.I.P. Billy Boy
Oh and Justin was the one who predicted it when he stated a few pages ago that Billy Boy was in the beginning stages of a hit troll. Seems like the evolution is going really fast once the process has started!

[momofo]

dont even make me list the evolution of a Volume Troll..lol

[patleb940]

dont even make me list the evolution of a Volume Troll..lol

Sounds interesting, go ahead please, might be funny...

[momofo]

easy, first you follow a muscle and fitness routine with lots of volume,grow for a bit do to the increased work done then start getting injured and losing muscle size. second,you have two choices-do steroids and gh to overcome volume issues but dont admit it, OR become frustrated and troll bodybuilding forums online to hide the truth.
Then some wake up and go to a site like mikementzer.com or highintensity.net and try Hit, grow like a weed, injuries go away, all aspects of you life improve then you become a Hit jedi and shine a light against the darkness of volume lifting like mentzer once did.