I have experimented (within recommended doses) with Thermogenics over the last year, both ephedra and non-ephedra. I would say that the experience has been positive: giving me more confidence, improving my concentration, helping me focus with training and of course helping me get and stay lean.
Because I have had almost no negative side-effects..
The big question is.. how safe are these products in the long-term??
When using them as recommended within the dose range, cycling when necessary, what effect do they have on one's health?? Can they deteriorate internal organs.. the heart? the stomach? the liver? the kidneys?
Ok so below I have the THEORY supporting the long-term use of ECA, of course I understand everyone is different, for some ECA is a terrible product and for me it has so far proven a solution. But I'd really like to hear your personal opinions and experiences...
Enjoy the articles if you haven't already found them!!
An article stating the long-term use of an ECA stack is the best "weight loss" solution for people with a noradrenaline and adrenaline deficiency:
http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000006.htm
Another article supporting the long-term use of ECA:
http://www.ironmag.com/archive/ironm...ca_cycling.htm
A great FAQ on Thermogenesis:
http://www.brunnerbiz.com/thermogenesis2.html
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Thread: Long Term ECA/Thermogenic USE?
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02-14-2006, 02:28 AM #1
Long Term ECA/Thermogenic USE?
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02-14-2006, 04:22 PM #2
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02-16-2006, 07:03 AM #3
korexite: Do you take any breaks off stimulants??
I have always had low adrenal levels, and I find some stimulation helps me amazingly! As soon as I get off, my mind slows down, concentration disappears, i put on weight very easily, my muscular gains diminish, my mood drops, allergies return, dry skin, etc....
I took about 6 months off last year, and as soon as I started taking STACKER 2: EPHEDRA FREE, which is a weak stimulant (Caffeine/Guggl) I felt almost ecstatic. My life transformed, and I started looking into all sorts of reasons why my body worked so well while stimulated.
The thing is, I dont seem to get burnt out, I can use a mild stimulants non-stop. When I took an ECA: 30mg Ephedrine HCL / 200mg Caffeine /100mg Aspirin, this was great initially but eventually tired me out. When I returned to a milder stimulant, my energy seemed to balance out again after a week or so.
My theory is that stimulants are correcting my low-adrenal levels, and cycling is only necessary when I am overstimulated. (This is what DRUMLIB argues) Does anyone else experience similar results? If so what products do you recommend?
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02-16-2006, 07:37 AM #4
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02-16-2006, 07:55 AM #5
There is a side effect that I know of.
Have you ever seen the middle aged man with a HUGE stomach, like he is pregnant and he isnt fat anywhere else Just in his adomin.
Well ECA's main ingrediant is caffeine. Long term use of caffein can increase cortisol levels. Cortisol levels, if high enough, cause the breakdown of healthy muscle tissue ( oppoisite of what It usually does by breaking down broken muscle tissue) and increasing fat in the abdomin region. Now, these middle aged man, ask them if they drink coffee everysingle day ? most say yes, coffe = caffeine, lots of caffeine over a long period of time = increase cortisol levels.
"Coffee drinking and caffeine intake stimulate the cascade of hormones and increase levels of cortisol"
http://www.teeccino.com/stress.aspx
That is why I take 7-OH whenever I take my ECA stack
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02-16-2006, 08:14 AM #6
- Join Date: Dec 2004
- Location: Michigan, United States
- Age: 63
- Posts: 1,938
- Rep Power: 1449
Originally Posted by sst0cki
I've been drinking caffeine almost daily for more than 25 years, and have visible abdominals now, and am 45. And that link is to a site that also happens to sell decaffeinated beverages.
It might be true for some people, but be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. I do feel bad for those guys who have that visceral gut, though. Seems like they totally bust their butts at the gym trying to get rid of it, and never succeed. Genetic curse.
C.K.
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02-16-2006, 08:25 AM #7
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02-16-2006, 10:54 AM #8Originally Posted by sst0cki
There is no figures for the increase in the levels, and not only that but the research done is clearly done in the interests of that particular company. On top of that, I do not care what your teacher or doctor says. These are the same people that advise against creatine and proper protein supplimentation. I'd rather trust results.My Signature.
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02-16-2006, 11:30 AM #9
here are some links
http://www.wonderdrug.com/what/art.htm
Long-term aspirin use may be associated with side effects. These may include increased or prolonged bleeding, stomach or intestinal, and stomach ulcers. For most people, however, long-term aspirin use is safe when directed and monitored by a doctor.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../321/7270/1183
Conclusions: Long term therapy with aspirin is associated with a significant increase in the incidence of gastrointestinal haemorrhage. No evidence exists that reducing the dose or using modified release formulations would reduce the incidence of gastrointestinal haemorrhage.
http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/ep...alsummary.html
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is issuing a final regulation declaring dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids adulterated under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the FD&C Act) because these dietary supplements present an unreasonable risk of illness or injury under the conditions of use recommended or suggested in labeling, or if no conditions of use are suggested or recommended in labeling, under ordinary conditions of use. Most dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids are used for weight loss or enhancement of athletic performance.
We have concluded that dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids pose a risk of serious adverse events, including heart attack, stroke, and death, and that these risks are unreasonable in light of any benefits that may result from the use of these products. This action is taken under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA) which amended the FD&C Act.
DSHEA grants FDA the authority to take action against a dietary supplement under certain circumstances, including when the product presents a significant risk, an unreasonable risk, or an imminent hazard, does not comply with good manufacturing practices, or makes an unsubstantiated structure-function claim. The final regulation that FDA is issuing today applies the unreasonable risk standard to dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids.
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02-16-2006, 01:09 PM #10
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02-16-2006, 01:32 PM #11
- Join Date: Dec 2004
- Location: Michigan, United States
- Age: 63
- Posts: 1,938
- Rep Power: 1449
Originally Posted by dcarterc
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum//...=ST&f=1&t=2741
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/fr97064a.html
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/8850-2.asp
edit: the Mind And Miscle link is either broken or requires registration to view now, which is strange because it just worked for me a little while ago. Here's a few more:
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=22960
http://www.natural-good-health.info/prostate.htm
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/pr...ad.php?t=58694
edit: now it's working again.
C.K.Last edited by stahlhart; 02-16-2006 at 01:47 PM.
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02-16-2006, 01:35 PM #12
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02-17-2006, 02:52 AM #13Originally Posted by sst0cki
Remember, titles mean very little. I know someone with a PHD who I wouldn't trust with a potato. What if they obtained that PHD 30 years ago. Do you think what they learned then applies now?
I like the swearing and the Canadian comment by the way. Lets me know that you can't handle debate, and that I am more mature than a correctional officer.My Signature.
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02-17-2006, 05:10 AM #14
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06-18-2010, 11:19 AM #15
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06-18-2010, 11:36 AM #16
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06-18-2010, 01:24 PM #17
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