Originally Posted by innermusic
I think he just simply has some good genes. Even as a little kid he had broad shoulders and looked built. As a high school football player, he was already 205 pounds or so. 20 years later, I figure he would have made some improvements
I'd be more skeptical if I didn't know him personally, but heck, I'm not his daddy, whatever he does is his decision, I do know that he's been a total vegetarian since age 16. It used to drive me crazy that he could do the stuff he does, and then I look at what he eats, and its unbelievable for him to keep the body that he has.
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09-24-2006, 02:03 PM #121
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Russell Wilson, the first QB in NFL history to throw a game-winning interception.
"So you got fired again eh?" "Yeah, they always freak out when you leave the scene of an accident."
Spiders are like offensive linemen, the best ones do their job and you never notice them.
An obvious example of New Math.
"It was a 2% tax hike, dumbass. From 3% to 5%"-NRKF84
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09-24-2006, 02:20 PM #122
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And George Burns lived to be over 100 smoking cigars everyday...but really...you don't pick out single cases and say there...that proves it. And 5'9", 225# and ripped...no assistance. Well either that is a complete and utter load of crap or he does have some of the most freakish genetics ever and if the latter is the case, why, do you apply anything he does to you or the general population...he'd have better genetics than nearly anyone. I highly doubt it, but either way that single case is not applicable in my mind.
Originally Posted by ElMariachiShawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
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09-24-2006, 02:28 PM #123
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Originally Posted by innermusic
Lastly, If you have not read through the ENTIRE thread and are chiming in now...DON'T...please don't. Read through and then post thoughts.Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
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09-24-2006, 02:31 PM #124
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09-24-2006, 02:41 PM #125
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Thanks...first of all. PM me with any questions you might have and I'll see if I can help you.
As far as soy being good for females this to is enigmatic. How can you apply data to all females? Infants, Prepubecent/premenarche, premenopausal, perimenopausal and postmenopausal are all the same? We know it has effects of testosterone, estrogen, cholesterol, thyroid, etc. We know it exerts hormonal effects.
Really, using soy milk sometimes as a woman, I don't see an issue, especially if you are not in preparation for a competition. I do think it is something to educate yourself on. Look up the isoflavone content...think about how much you are consuming (dose of isoflavones) and then observe if you differences in body composition, agitation, melancholy, body temp., acne, menarchical changes, water retention, etc. All these you may attribute to hormonal differences. Dending on your levels of estrogens it may positively effect you or negatively...that is genetic. Look at it, think about it...
Originally Posted by FitGirlTrainerShawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
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10-06-2006, 01:42 AM #126
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04-02-2007, 05:50 AM #127
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Soy isoflavones lowers testosterone:
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/Keung.htm
Dietary estrogenic isoflavones are potent inhibitors of beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase of P. testosteronii.
Keung WM. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1995 Oct 24 215:3 1137-44
Abstract
The isoflavones daidzein, genistein, biochanin A and formononetin selectively inhibit the gamma-isozymes of mammalian alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH). Since gamma-ADH is the only ADH isoform that catalyzes 3 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidation, it was conjectured that these isoflavones might also inhibit other enzymes involved in 3 beta-hydroxysteroid metabolism. P. testosteronii beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (beta-HSD) was used to evaluate this hypothesis. Indeed, all isoflavones that inhibit gamma-ADH were found to be potent inhibitors of beta-HSD. Both the 3 beta- and 17 beta-HSD activities of the enzyme are inhibited. Kinetic analyses with pregnenolone (3-beta-OH) and testosterone (17-beta-OH) as substrates reveal that daidzein and genistein inhibit beta-HSD competitively with respect to the sterol substrates. Their Ki values are very similar and range from 0.013 to 0.02 microM. These results suggest that isoflavones may exert some of their biological effects by modulating activities of enzymes that metabolize steroids critical to hormonal and/or neuronal functions.
Estrogen-specific 17 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase type 1 (E.C. 1.1.1.62) as a possible target for the action of phytoestrogens.
M?kel? S, Poutanen M, Lehtim?ki J, Kostian ML, Santti R, Vihko R.
Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1995 Jan 208:1 51-9.
Abstract
Several plant estrogens, especially coumestrol and genistein, were found to reduce the conversion of [3H]estrone to [3H] 17 beta-estradiol catalyzed by estrogen-specific 17 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase Type 1 (E.C. 1.1.1.62) in vitro. Coumestrol, the most potent inhibitor in our experiments, is the best inhibitor of the enzyme known to date. All compounds with inhibitory effects were also estrogenic. However, structural demands for 17 beta-HSOR Type 1 inhibition and estrogenicity of tested compounds in breast cancer cells (judged by increased cell proliferation) were not identical. Zearalenone and diethylstilbestrol, both potent estrogens, did not inhibit 17 beta-HSOR Type 1. Thus, changes in the estrogen molecule may discriminate between active sites of 17 beta-HSOR Type 1 and estrogen binding sites of the ER. The effects of these compounds in vivo cannot be predicted on the basis of these results. Inhibition of 17 beta-HSOR Type 1 enzyme could lead to a decrease in the availability of the highly active endogenous estrogen. However, these compounds are estrogenic per se, and they may thus replace endogenous estrogens. Additional studies are needed to further understand the role of these plant estrogens in the etiology of hormone-dependent cancers. It is not easily conceivable how the chemopreventive action of Asian diets, possibly mediated by phytoestrogens in soya products, can be based on the inhibition of estrone reduction at the target cells by phytoestrogens or related compounds, unless they are ''incomplete estrogens'' (i.e., unable to induce all effects typical of endogenous estrogens).Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
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04-02-2007, 05:51 AM #128
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http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/04malehealth.htm
Phytoestrogens & Male Health
Phytoestrogens can affect male animals health and fertility, what about people?
"For the males, decreased sperm count and enlarged prostates. The treatment altered virtually every aspect of the reproductive system. The place next to the testes, the duct system called the epididymis where the sperm are stored prior to being ejaculated -- it was abnormally small, which could account also for lowered sperm count in the ejaculate. But we know also the testis is making fewer sperm. We see changes in growth rate as well. One of the interesting things is that these very low doses of estrogen increase rates of growth. The animals were actually growing larger than they would have normally. It was really quite a dramatic effect. The females went into puberty early. And we saw changes in behavior, changes in reactivity to the presence of other animals in the environment. Essentially the animals looked to be somewhat hyper-reactive to stimuli. We have, in other words, effects on brain and behavior. We're also seeing changes in liver enzyme activity which determines the way we respond to external chemicals, how fast we clear drugs, how we metabolize drugs.
In other words, in every aspect of physiology that we look for, we see effects. And they're permanent. And the important thing about what I'm talking about is we are only exposing babies to these chemicals for very, very short periods of time in development and the consequences are for the rest of the life of that individual. Once you change the development of an organ there is no way to undo that effect. It's a life sentence -- that's a lifetime consequence. Medical science can't undo the development of organs." Fredrick Vom Saal, Professor of Biological Sciences, University of Missouri in an interview on estrogenic chemicals in the environment conducted in February 1998 by Doug Hamilton, producer of FRONTLINE's "Fooling With Nature." Full interview can be found here
From simple laboratory mice to the unusual case of the phytoestrogen sensitive captive cheetahs, there is ample evidence that dietary phytoestrogens cause infertility in a variety of animals. Why would this be? Like the other toxins in soybeans, the phytoestrogens are present in the soybean to ensure its survival. What better way to discourage predators than to make sure they aren't able to reproduce?
But what about humans? Some, such as Richard Sharpe and Theo Colborn, have suggested that the trend toward lower male fertility is due to environmental estrogens, including the soy phytoestrogens. But is there any evidence that phytoestrogens may place males at risk of reduced fertility? Also see quotes from Food Safety - a 21st Century Issue, by Professor Shaw in the New Zealand Science Review. The human sperm count decrease over the past five decades might relate to the introduction of soya to the western diet and the increasing popularity of vegetarianism - a sting in the tail for apparently healthy eating. More information is available from an article published in The Dominion, Wellington September 3 2001.
Nagata and colleagues have reported an inverse association between soy product intake and serum hormone concentrations in Japanese men. Research has demonstrated that chemical compounds can have a number of other effects on male health including decreasing prostate gland weight, lower testosterone levels, along with inducing significant testicular cell death and necrosis.
Lois J Guillette Ph.D.
He is Professor of Zoology at the University of Florida. Guillette has studied alligators in Florida for over ten years. Based on Theo Colborn's work, and the findings at the 1991 Wingspread conference in Wisconsin, he shifted his research to hormones -- asking whether environmental contaminants could be affecting alligator health and development.
Interviewed by Doug Hamilton, producer of FRONTLINE's "Fooling With Nature." Interview conducted November 1997.
"Caponised males? A half helping of man". W. David Kubiak reports that "...a steady diet of miso, tofu, soy sauce and so on might not be best for leadership trainees or aspiring Lotharios".
There is also a wealth of evidence that shows that mammals exposed to estrogens during critical periods of sexual development can suffer a drastic reduction in fertility. For example
Effects of exposure environmental estrogens on rats Male Reproductive Health
Other estrogenic effects of isoflavones on dogs and fish
And what about the ridiculous feeding of captive cheetahs soy protein? It seems cheetahs are particularly sensitive to isoflavones as well. So if you care at all about your pet feline, take a tip from Soy Online Service and don't expose them to cat food containing soy.
Effects are not limited to vertebrates alone, read about the effects on the humble male Grasshopper.
There is also strong evidence that soy phytoestrogens such as genistein can inhibit 17-b-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase, an enzyme which is required for the synthesis of testosterone and the development of the CNS-gonadal axis. There is also evidence that the soy isoflavones genistein and daidzein are genotoxic to human sperm. It is quite possible, therefore, that phytoestrogens, along with other endocrine disrupting compounds such as DDT, may contribute to the worldwide decrease in male fertility.
See quotes from Food Safety - a 21st Century Issue, by Professor Shaw in the New Zealand Science Review. The human sperm count decrease over the past five decades might relate to the introduction of soya to the western diet and the increasing popularity of vegetarianism - a sting in the tail for apparently healthy eating. More information is available from an article published in The Dominion, Wellington September 3 2001.
Congenital abnormalities of the male genital tract are also increasing, and once again soy phytoestrogens may be implicated, according to a study that found a higher incidence of birth defects in male offspring of vegetarian, soy-consuming mothers. There are also links between high soy diets during pregnancy and nursing and eventual developmental changes in children.
In another research communication, Japanese scientists found that the presence of tyrosine protein kinase inhibitor genistein retarded the repair of gastric mucosal cells, suggesting that genistein may retard the healing of gastric ulcers.
Also read our pages on the effects of phytoestrogens on thyroid, immune and cognitive function.
Further information on Reproductive Health can be found at http://www.fertilityawareness.net/.Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
www.dymatize.com
SWells@Dymatize.com
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04-02-2007, 05:52 AM #129
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continued
Further Reading
The effect of isoflavone extract ingestion, as Trinovin, on plasma steroids in normal men.
Lewis JG, Morris JC, Clark BM, Elder PA., Steroids 2002 Jan;67(1):25-9
We therefore question the value of Trinovin, at the recommended dosage, as offering protective effects against prostate disease by mechanisms involving either significant modulation of plasma steroid or SHBG levels. In contrast the increase in dihydrotestosterone plasma levels could be seen as possibly detrimental.
Full Abstract Here
Hidden soy in fast foods have been linked to cutting men's fertility. Read more Here
Increased aggressive behavior and decreased affiliative behavior in adult male monkeys after long-term consumption of diets rich in soy protein and isoflavones.
Simon NG, Kaplan JR, Hu S, Register TC, Adams MR., Horm Behav. 2004 Apr;45(4):278-84.
In the monkeys fed the higher amount of isoflavones, frequencies of intense aggressive (67% higher) and submissive (203% higher) behavior were elevated relative to monkeys fed the control diet (P's < 0.05). In addition, the proportion of time spent by these monkeys in physical contact with other monkeys was reduced by 68%, time spent in proximity to other monkeys was reduced 50%, and time spent alone was increased 30% (P's < 0.02).
Full Abstract Here
New research confirms the risk of soy foods to mens' fertility once again.
Soya may be making men infertile. Read an article by James Chapman published in the Daily Mirror Here.
New Findings May Support Soy-Dementia in Men. Article by Ian Williams Goddard, August 9, 2003
Manipulation of prenatal hormones and dietary phytoestrogens during adulthood alter the sexually dimorphic expression of visual spatial memory.
Lund TD, Lephart ED. BMC Neurosci. 2001;2(1):21. Epub 2001 Dec 18.
Full Abstract Here
Dietary supplements of soya flour lower serum testosterone concentrations and improve markers of oxidative stress in men.
Gardner-Thorpe D, O'Hagen C, Young I, Lewis SJ. Eur J Clin Nutr 2003 Jan;57(1):100-6
Total serum testosterone fell in volunteers taking the soya scones (19.3-18.2 nmol/l; 95% CI 1.01, 1.12; P=0.03)
Full Abstract HereShawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
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04-02-2007, 05:53 AM #130
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http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/05soypolitics.htm
Soy Politics
The soy industry's influence over the media, research institutions and government agencies is strong.
The goal of soy research is to boost industry profits and the US economy.
We uncover soy industry politics.
"Soya: The Quiet Conquest"
Follow this link to a 1994 revelation on the way soy has infiltrated your food, your government and has captured well wishers in food safety regulatory agencies everywhere.
Who Funds Soy Research and Why?
$4 Million in Research Grants to Examine Soy Health Benefits. The soybean checkoff's Soy Health Research Program solicits research proposals to study soy consumption and its impact on the prevention of osteoporosis, breast cancer, prostate cancer and the health benefits of isoflavones, a component of soy protein. Scientists submit research proposal applications to USB and, if their applications are selected, USB awards a $10,000 grant to scientists to help defray the cost of preparing the proposal submission to the NIH. In 2000, the very first year of the program, it yielded a $1.2 million NIH grant. Since then, an additional $4 million has been secured.
Multiple millions of dollars are spent on soy research each year. Most State Soybean Boards fund their own research programmes (e.g., Arkansas Soybean Board which spent US$1.1 Million in research in 1998-1999) but the grants offered are insignificant when compared with that of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA).
The USDA Soybean Promotion and Research Program was established by the Soybean Promotion and Research Order and is authorised by the Soybean Promotion, Research, and Consumer Information Act [7 U.S.C. 6301-6311]. The Act was passed as part of the 1990 Farm Bill. It authorized the establishment of a national soybean promotion, research, and consumer information program. The program became effective on July 9, 1991, when the Order was published. Assessments began September 1, 1991.
As required by the Act, USDA conducted a referendum among soybean producers on February 9, 1994, to determine whether the program should continue. Of the 85,606 valid ballots cast, 53.8 percent of soybean producers voting favoured the program. As required by the Act, USDA conducted a producer poll on July 26, 1995, to determine whether producers supported conducting a referendum to determine if refunds should continue. Only 48,782 producers participated in the poll--less than the 76,200 required to cause a refund referendum to be conducted. Refunds were discontinued on October 1, 1995.
The program?s goal is to strengthen the position of soybeans in the marketplace and to maintain and expand domestic and foreign markets and uses for soybeans and soybean products. It is funded by a mandatory assessment of 0.5 of 1 percent of the net market price of soybeans. All producers marketing soybeans must pay the assessment. Assessments under this program total approximately $80 million annually and are used to fund promotional and informational campaigns and to conduct research with the objective of expanding and improving the use of soybeans and soybean products.
You can read more about the USDA Soybean Promotion and Research Program at the United Soybean Board Site.
Of course there's nothing wrong with research, but Soy Online Service think that the motivation for research should be the honest search for scientific truth (remember the good old days!!). The vast majority of current USDA and industry funded soy research is obscenely slanted toward the benefits of soy. And, what do you know? Soy cures cancer! Little surprise soy consumption is up, the soy magnates are laughing all the way to the bank and the US economy also gets a nice little boost.
Well the facts are that if you believe the industry message about how great soy is then you are just another sucker. Soy Online Service views the soy industry as the worst type of scum on the face of the earth; happy to promote dubious health claims and take your money, while at the same time endangering more than a million soy formula fed babies each year.
Don't upset the Soybean Cart
Soy Online Service first encountered the politics of soy when we addressed the New Zealand Ministry of Health over concerns about the phytoestrogen content of soy formulas for infants. An internal memo from the Chief Toxicologist to the Minister of Health (and ex Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley) indicated a high level of concern for the health of infants fed soy formulas but stating that:
'if the dose was high enough over a sufficient length of time, such toxicants could cause significant adverse health effects including growth depression, immunosuppression, abnormal responses to hormonal stimulation and cancer'.
However, the memo also noted that the concerns we had raised had potential for 'mischief, especially in the media' and that 'soybeans are big business, especially in the United States and is a traded item on international commodity markets''. An earlier memo clearly stated the New Zealand government's desire to 'regain control' of the situation.
This was in 1994 and rather than 'risk damaging an industry' the New Zealand Ministry of Health lied to the public about the risks associated with feeding soy formulas. Despite mounting evidence to the contrary, and continual questioning in Parliament, the Ministry of Health maintained the lies by continuing to state that there 'was no evidence of harm' and 'no substance to our concerns'. But in November 1998 came a dramatic about-face. One can only wonder at the power of multi-national interests when Ministers of the New Zealand government would condone the breaking of consumer protection laws that they in their oaths of office swore to uphold."
Quote from "The Cholesterol Conspiracy" by Dr Russell L. Smith.
Both the public and clinical physicians have simultaneously been swamped by an ever-growing tidal wave of exaggerations, distortions and even fabrications of the facts. The media blitz has been so successful that nearly everyone is now thoroughly brainwashed.
In fact, it is nothing less than astonishing that this juggernaut has grown larger, richer and more powerful as the mountainous negative findings accumulated. How can this happen? If you control the money and the media, negative findings are little more than irritants because the public will never hear about them. It is a version of George Orwell's Newspeak.
The reader should be aware that such a state-of-affairs is by no means unique. It has occurred in every branch of science for as long as anyone cares to remember. But it is particularly devastating in medicine where billions of dollars are spent worthlessly and millions of lives are lost prematurely because research funding agencies have disregarded masses of scientific findings and fraudulently used public monies to disseminate dogma and propaganda.
Hitler did it. He was not the first but he did it quite successfully. It being the big lie. He and his cohorts told it often enough, and with official state backing, so that just about everyone involved believed it. And if you thought it could never happen again - outside of politicians, that is - you were mistaken. What is even worse, the big lie may well kill millions of people without ever interfering with their rights, their beliefs or their backgrounds.Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
www.dymatize.com
SWells@Dymatize.com
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04-02-2007, 06:12 AM #131
So, I figure I would join in your plight everywhere and add in the same exchange for completion's sake...
Allow me to quote...well,...me:
Originally Posted by dinoiii
Sincerely,
D_Dana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
Industry Author & Product Development Consultant
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Please visit me at the "Ask Dr. Houser" subforum at www.leanbulk.com/forum.
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04-02-2007, 06:13 AM #132
Dr.D's comments on Soy which work in concert with mine with some add-ins coming at it from a different angle:
Originally Posted by Dr.DDana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
Industry Author & Product Development Consultant
---------------------------------
Please visit me at the "Ask Dr. Houser" subforum at www.leanbulk.com/forum.
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04-02-2007, 06:15 AM #133
A piece I write in my BodyBlog here on bb.com you may find entertaining, though it has been on hiatus with so many current projects that was entitled:
Originally Posted by dinoiii from Body BlogDana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
Industry Author & Product Development Consultant
---------------------------------
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04-02-2007, 09:44 AM #134
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04-02-2007, 09:56 AM #135
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04-02-2007, 10:09 AM #136
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Im not sure if this was already stated but; soy = bad because we do not have protein receptors for soy protein in our blood. Some blood typed are better suited to eat lots of meat while other are better suited to eat lots of vegetables but none are suited for lots of soy. Your body will eventually change its hormone production to help adapt to all the incoming foreign protein.
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04-02-2007, 10:23 AM #137
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what I'm getting from all this, is that if you eat a diet rich in protein from a variety of sources you'll be fine EVEN WITH SOY
just had cottage cheese, a soy protein bar (10g pro), and oats....I think my balls will make it
seriously though, people just need to realize that nothing is black and white....I would say the only people who have to worry would be male, vegetarian or vegan bodybuilders who most likely would be consuming a large amount of soy...vegan more likely, because veggies can consume whey...so for the average lifter or supplement junkie don't worry about getting soy in your diet..I'd say at most the average population of fitness buffs get 10-20% of their protein from soy....just my 2 cents
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04-02-2007, 11:04 AM #138
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04-02-2007, 11:09 AM #139
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04-02-2007, 11:17 AM #140
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04-02-2007, 11:43 AM #141
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04-02-2007, 11:47 AM #142
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04-02-2007, 11:59 AM #143
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04-03-2007, 12:51 AM #144Dana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
Industry Author & Product Development Consultant
---------------------------------
Please visit me at the "Ask Dr. Houser" subforum at www.leanbulk.com/forum.
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04-03-2007, 05:37 AM #145
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Quelly's young, reading the muscle mags and going to his bachelor's now. I remember doing the same thing. At 23 I believed everything Bill Phillips, Dan Duchaine, Dr. Colgan, and oh...shudder...Derek Cornelius told me. I spent thousands being wrong and have a ruined liver (thanks DC).
So yes. My point is, to those pro-soy protein. Even if, at best its just conflicting data (and I agree with Dana its overwhelmingly not)...why use it????? Is there no other choices? Like rolling the dice? Wouldn't you be more conservative and wait on something that definitively gives it the green light? I would...but I don't buy muscletech, syntrax, fizogen's straps, oh yeah bars, and drink redline's left and right either.Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
www.dymatize.com
SWells@Dymatize.com
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04-03-2007, 05:50 AM #146
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04-03-2007, 09:05 AM #147
This is a great thread. Kudos to all who have posted information and well-reasoned opinions.
For what it is worth, here is my anecdote about soy. I am a vegetarian, so I tend to take in quite a bit of soy products, though many of them are also combined with whey or gluten. I can only get so excited about tofu, if you know what I mean. I have had no estrogenic effects on my body, at least none that I notice. Actually, my move to vegetarianism has increased testosterone-related tendencies, such as aggression, competitiveness, and libido.
However, I eschew soy "milk" because I have had a sensation of terrible bloating when I drink it. Before I read about the phytoestrogen controversy, I assumed that the swelling in my pectorals was just retained water hanging out in my fat stores during a bulking cycle. Now, though, I wonder. I don't feel like experimenting again, though ;-)
My final opinion, after having read the studies on this thread as well as studies elsewhere, is that eating soy-based products will have no negative effect on the body. If the level of dietary soy is taken to an extreme, however, all bets are off. Further, there are many studies that indicate that soy reduces the risk of prostate cancer (a VERY horrible disease). Given my six years of vegetarianism without growing breasts or shrinking my testes, I would wager on the side of moderate amounts of dietary soy being safe and useful. I would not, however, give my baby boy soy milk (or lotion him with lavender oil or tea tree oil, for that matter).Spartan #301 (turf toe - missed the big dance)
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04-03-2007, 09:46 AM #148
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That's a good post. And the lavender/tea tree oil is a whole other thread along with flax lignan, microwaving foods in plastics. Plastics in general...which is the entire beverage industry. This is my argument, we certainly do not need to increase enviromental estrogens.
Oh and...you might like this full study...titled: Endocrine Disruptors: Phytoestrogens in Food. (endocrine system is your hormones...disruption means bad.)
http://www.edp*sciences.org/articles....pdf?access=ok
You need to remove a star here between DP and S because it blocks it out, think its a competitor...I hate when this happens. But please look at this article/study.
I am still begging, crying out for those reading to understand dose-dependency. The amount of phytoestrogens/isoflavones delivered. Soy Protein isolate is very, very concentrated in these isoflavones. Much more so, than tofu. I am begging you guys that are pro-soy...begging you to put this is context and no more, "I know a guy that's ripped and he eats soy" GNC/MHP/MuscleMag mentality...please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please. The thread will be far more informative if you, well, let it be.
Lastly this is the NIH (as in National Institute of Health under the government umbrella) article (aforementioned) titled: Lavender and Tea Tree Oils May Cause Breast Growth in Boys
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jan2007/niehs-31.htmLast edited by Androgenic; 04-03-2007 at 09:48 AM.
Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
www.dymatize.com
SWells@Dymatize.com
shawn.ZHR on ********
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04-03-2007, 10:22 AM #149
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well I'm basically just saying that none of the studies give anything conclusive on how a bodybuilding diet that say had 10% of its protein from soy would affect your average lifter, and it seems like it would be fine in moderation....maybe I missed a study or two....I mean there were like 8897 of them
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04-03-2007, 11:25 AM #150
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Yup, pretty compelling isn't it. Have you learned about study design, epidimiology, statistics, clinical research parameters, journal approval processes, and research methods? Have you written any studies or helped in the process of one?
I am sorry. We'll see if we can find 3 more studies to get over the 8900 hump of validity for you.Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN
Director of Research and Development - Dymatize
www.dymatize.com
SWells@Dymatize.com
shawn.ZHR on ********
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