Protein Factory Fails Label Claim test

[Phil Caravaggio]

Originally posted by 1fast400
Often times a companies reputation is defined by how it reacts to a bad situation. Alex could have easily resolved this with no problem. Instead he choose to come after me. Out of respect to him and his laywer I will not post the incredibly stupid letter they sent me. My decision of retraction is based on the fact that my phone can't be tied up 2h out of the day dealing with him and his lawyers. I can't make message boards go away. This will all be taken care of in good time. In the future PF will be sending the blends to the labs themselves. I will never touch the items. We will see if they clean up their act or not.

Totally agree with you about how Alex has handled it all. It could have been a great opportunity to solidify customer loyalty. Oh well . . .

Nevertheless, there are a TON of problems with the way this went down, most of which have already been discussed ad nauseum. Your decision to go public with this result was ill-advised, to say the least. Why not just hold of until you had some conclusive evidence one way or the other, using more credible methods? It's a razor thin line between consumer advocacy and defamation. I know your intentions were good, but good intentions aren't enough -- you need good methodology and a good understanding of the larger ethical issues and consequences as well.

PC

[1fast400]

I posted results I got, period. Notice how nobody brought up issues with PF till I posted this. In the past you were screamed and yelled at for saying anything bad about them. Following the original post people came out of the woodwork with their problems. Once all these problems are looked at it is obvious PF had a problem with QC. That was the only thing I wanted to bring to light. If I were a consumer I would buy from PF with the upmost confidence right now. Do you think they want this to happen again? Till this point in time nobody tested anything. There was no preceived threat of testing. Well, now there is. I'm sure every batch that comes out of the PF for the next few months will be right on point. They can't afford another mistake like this. I would say the consumers benefited quite a bit from this, even if it wasn't under the best of circumstances.

[jweave23]

Just some FYI for readers of this post to consider (taken from http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d021.htm):

DEFAMATION - An act of communication that causes someone to be shamed, ridiculed, held in contempt, lowered in the estimation of the community, or to lose employment status or earnings or otherwise suffer a damaged reputation. Such defamation is couched in 'defamatory language'. Libel and slander are defamation.

Although defamation is primarily governed by state law, the First Amendment safeguards for freedom of speech and press limit state law. New York Times v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254, 264 (1964); Masson, 501 U.S. at 510. The scope of constitutional protection extends to statements of opinion on matters of public concern that do not contain or imply a provable factual assertion. Milkovich, 497 U.S. at 20 (rejecting categorical exemption of all statements in form of opinion; statement that may imply verifiable assertion of fact is actionable).

To determine whether a statement implies a factual assertion, courts examine the totality of the circumstances in which it was made. First, they look at the statement in its broad context, which includes the general tenor of the entire work, the subject of the statements, the setting, and the format of the work. Next they turn to the specific context and content of the statements, analyzing the extent of figurative or hyperbolic language used and the reasonable expectations of the audience in that particular situation. Finally, they inquire whether the statement itself is sufficiently factual to be susceptible of being proved true or false. See Partington v. Bugliosi, 56 F.3d 1147, 1153 (9th Cir.'94) (applying three-factor test as the starting point for analysis); Unelko Corp. v. Rooney, 912 F.2d 1049, 1053 (9th Cir.'90), cert. denied, 499 U.S. 961 (1991).

'[T]he First Amendment requires that the courts allow latitude for interpretation.' Partington, 56 F.3d at 1154 (quoting Moldea v. New York Times Co., 22 F.3d 310, 315 (D.C.Cir.), cert. denied, 115 S.Ct. 202 (1994)).

The speaking slanderous words of a person so as to hurt his good fame.

In the United States, the remedy for defamation is by an action on the case, where the words are slanderous.

In England, besides the remedy by action, proceedings may be instituted in the ecclesiastical court for redress of the injury. The punishment for defamation, in this court, is payment of costs and penance enjoined at the discretion of the judge. When the slander has been privately uttered, the penance may be ordered to be performed in a private place; when publicly uttered, the sentence must be public, as in the church of the parish of the defamed party in time of divine service, and the defamer may be required publicly to pronounce that by such words, naming them as set forth in the sentence, he had defamed the plaintiff, and therefore, that he begs pardon, first of God, and then of the party defamed, for uttering such words.
--b--

I only posted this to give some readers an idea of what defamation is so that they may judge things for themselves (to provide a context if you will). I am not a lawyer and am not able to give legal advice, just FYI. Period. There are also many different sources for this definiton, this is only one. Once again this is not meant to imply anything other than what an accepted definition of defamation may be.

[Phil Caravaggio]

Originally posted by 1fast400
I posted results I got, period.

Unfortunately that's part of the problem. IIRC you didn't qualify the result right off the bat, you simply let them lose on the web to take on a life of their own.

Notice how nobody brought up issues with PF till I posted this. In the past you were screamed and yelled at for saying anything bad about them. Following the original post people came out of the woodwork with their problems. Once all these problems are looked at it is obvious PF had a problem with QC. That was the only thing I wanted to bring to light. If I were a consumer I would buy from PF with the upmost confidence right now. Do you think they want this to happen again? Till this point in time nobody tested anything. There was no preceived threat of testing. Well, now there is. I'm sure every batch that comes out of the PF for the next few months will be right on point. They can't afford another mistake like this. I would say the consumers benefited quite a bit from this, even if it wasn't under the best of circumstances.

Yes, customers will benefit -- those customers who keep their wits about them. Some customers will be chased away for good, others just for the short term. Sales: down.

Sure, its good to keep them honest. But I think that could have been done in a way that doesn't do irreparable damage.

And what if they make another mistake? It is inevitable that they will -- theirs is a business that relies upon humans to customize formulas, and humans make mistakes. It's that simple. Its not perfect, but its what you get for the opportunity to make your own stuff. To completely **** on them for screwing up (not Mike, but others) is absurd, and denies the nature of their business. Should they try to improve? Of course. Should they offer a way to verify the formulation for those who want that security? Absolutely. Should they be put out of business for making another (inevitable) mistake, due to benign human error? Absolutely not.

The fact that some people are coming out with old compaints, valid as they may be, should be taken in light of the thousands of satisfied customers who have had positive experience with PF. I'm not making excuses, I'm just trying to put things in perspective. Personally, I've never had a problem with their service, and hopefully this will clear up any QC issues.

Some good will come of this, and we have you to thank for that. I'm definitely down for product testing, but it has to be done properly. Hopefully this doesn't sour you on testing in general, but instead serves to iron out some of the kinks.

PC

[lakevillethor]

I posted this in his "closing thoughts" thread but I thought it would go better here:

I am going to gout out on a limb here and say that everyone makes mistakes. Alex's main mistake was the way he carried himself on the last post that everyone read – this could be one aspect of Alex’s intelligence that is lacking (I agree, he made himself look like a jackass). Many people just don’t have the people skills that others have and secondly, different people respond in different ways to the same stimuli. I went to school with some brilliant minds in engineering, however, most of them can’t carry on a conversations to save their life. I think that this may be the case with Alex. He got pissed off when he saw that someone tested his product and concluded that there were flaws in the testing procedure. Obviously, he should have reacted in a different way. If you get a chance, view how Pat Arnold reacted to some of Big Cat’s views in the “IGF-1 research” thread – Pat came off as the know it all and Big Cat handled himself, to say the least, very good. Again, not everyone has the type of personality to be able to remain calm so I don’t think we can just throw in the towel and say that Protein factory sucks. I think that they have a Quality control issue that needs to be addressed - but again, I don't think that Alex was out to short change anyone. I am sure that Alex, if he wants to keep any business, will take Mike's findings and do what he can to address the issue; I highly doubt that Alex had malicious intent here to short change the consumer.

Second to that, it is possible that Mike just got a bad sample and that everyone is blowing this WAY out of proportion. Alex makes hundreds of batches a day with complex, personalized ordering information. I am not making excuses for Alex, but **** happens and it is very very tough to conclude anything from one sample. For example, I am currently working on a case where a power strip caused a fire in a building. After looking at the design of the artifact (the burnt power strip that caused the fire), it became obvious to me that the manufacturer placed the MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor), in backwards, letting it explode and release large magnitudes of energy. With that in mind, can I say that every product that this manufacturer makes is ****ty? Hell no. **** happens and some guy over in China, where this product is made, just had a bad day and placed it in backwards. Is it still the manufacturers fault? Absolutely. Is the manufacturer going to have to pay for the fire damage to the building. Absolutely. Would I buy a product made by this company? In a New York minute. Why? Because this sample is not one that has any statistical measure of their quality control.

The way to view this as the average consumer, IMO, is to not order from Protein factory for a month or so, let Alex get his ducks in a row, and then try him again. Realistically, he does make a good product (when the **** turns out the way it’s supposed to) and I am sure he will be paying even closer attention to the QC of his production.
-AT

[SupaNatural]

Originally posted by Phil Caravaggio
I think that could have been done in a way that doesn't do irreparable damage.

While I respect your point of view I believe, as most of us do, that the only irreparable damage was due to Alex's lack of integrity. Had he been mature about it and taken the problem by the horns instead of, basically claiming negligence and trickling the responsibility down to his employees, he may have actually gained some respect. Many had actually defended him at first, and he actually lost the respect of them as well.

Originally posted by Phil Caravaggio
And what if they make another mistake? It is inevitable that they will -- theirs is a business that relies upon humans to customize formulas, and humans make mistakes. It's that simple. Its not perfect, but its what you get for the opportunity to make your own stuff.

However it can be minimized. Mike may not have seen many posts about their mistakes but I have. There needs to be a QC process implemented, that should have been the message sent to him, instead he accused Mike of trying to sabotage his business.

Originally posted by Phil Caravaggio
To completely **** on them for screwing up (not Mike, but others) is absurd... Should they be put out of business for making another (inevitable) mistake, due to benign human error? Absolutely not.

The only thing he was really sh*t on for was his overall conduct in handling the situation, which I nor others feel is absurd. They should not be put out of business, and he may still be able to repair his reputation. However in order to do so he absolutely HAS to accept responsibility and take the initiative to rectify the issue at hand, instead of denying complete responsibility and playing the blame game.

[Baby Huey]

Originally posted by Supa Freek 420
While I respect your point of view I believe, as most of us do, that the only irreparable damage was due to Alex's lack of integrity. . . .

Preach on, Supa Freek. Your comments are dead on. I can't begin to describe how poorly this was handled by Alex. The only reason this has become such a huge deal is the stupid, insulting way he has conducted himself. My basic conclusion is that the guy is an ignorant ass who stumbled upon a great idea and then promptly screwed it up by calling his customers names and insulting their intelligence.

[Jertschub]

Alex used to post to misc.fitness.weights a while ago. I can see he has not gotten any brighter. Luckily it does not take the sharpest knife in the draw to mix together protein but it does take a really anal retentive view of quality control.

Whether this original test was legit or not no one really knows. Most of you are totally overlooking the fact that 1fast400 DOES have a vested interest in seeing PF fail because people buying custom protein blends from Alex can't be buying the canned stuff from Mike. Get it? I'm not saying that makes Mike a liar but when dealing with strangers you have to look at their prima facie motivations.

Statistics, chain of custody, and lab confidentiality in this case could take pages to explain. I'll say this, one test does not a sample make; Mike can't legally post these results because of the way the sample was handled; and reputable labs won't disclose a thing to a third party unless authorized in writing to do so.

I think this "sample" brouhaha and subsequent emergence of a company doing nearly the same thing Alex does smells pretty bad. In an industry that already stinks like dead fish that is saying something. People have to draw their own conclusions here based on incomplete data but I tell you what it looks like to me.

It looks like 1fast400 in conjunction with certain unnamed parties (duh, you think I don't see you?), who have formed a recent partnership, have gotten together to make Alex look bad and Alex being Alex has helped them every step of the way. I think this unnamed sleezebag is planning to expand into the protein business and would like to see PF knocked out of the game or at least knocked down several pegs. I'm no huge fan of Alex's but I do think in essence he is an honest guy who wants to run an honest business. He is just goofy and dumb.

Anyway, that's my take on this.

[dio]

Originally posted by Jertschub

It looks like 1fast400 in conjunction with certain unnamed parties (duh, you think I don't see you?), who have formed a recent partnership, have gotten together to make Alex look bad and Alex being Alex has helped them every step of the way. I think this unnamed sleezebag is planning to expand into the protein business and would like to see PF knocked out of the game or at least knocked down several pegs. I'm no huge fan of Alex's but I do think in essence he is an honest guy who wants to run an honest business. He is just goofy and dumb.

Anyway, that's my take on this.

These accusations are silly at best. Mike offered to test the Protein factory's samples months ago. I know, because i was supposed to send one at that time. I ended up sending one later at the same time as Tony1. Incedentally both of us have been strong supporters of the Protein factory on this board and others.

The new operation is opportunistic but there is no conspiracy theory fodder here. Now go back to trolling Lyle.

[1fast400]

It looks like 1fast400 in conjunction with certain unnamed parties (duh, you think I don't see you?), who have formed a recent partnership, have gotten together to make Alex look bad and Alex being Alex has helped them every step of the way.

WTF are you talking about? I'm not in conjunction with anyone. Nor have I ever been. It seems you are coming into a situation (a board with which you have no prior history) and making comments about who/what I am. You should really go into more detail if your going to say such things. I don't have to make Alex look bad, he does a good enough job himself.

I think this unnamed sleezebag is planning to expand into the protein business and would like to see PF knocked out of the game

Ok if your bringing me into this I think you REALLY need to reconsider your thoughts. If you would have known about all the prior testing you may not be saying such things. I posted my store addy months ago for people who wanted to send samples of things to test. It just took forever (and two of PF biggest supporters) to do it.

[jweave23]

Originally posted by Jertschub
Most of you are totally overlooking the fact that 1fast400 DOES have a vested interest in seeing PF fail because people buying custom protein blends from Alex can't be buying the canned stuff from Mike. Get it? I'm not saying that makes Mike a liar but when dealing with strangers you have to look at their prima facie motivations.

This does not make any sense considering that Mike has tested products he sells. I can see where you were trying to go with this, but consider that Mike sells N-Large 2 AND I****trix. Your conclusions about profit motives here are unwarranted. Please explain why he would do this then:

Originally posted by 1fast400
On another note I had Inlarge II and I****trix tested:

I****trix had 3g more protein per serving, .4g less carbs and 1g of fat more than label claim. It tested very well

NlargeII had an semi-odd result. They had 75.8g of carbs instead of 86, but had 66.3g of protein in stead of 52.

This should show that he will test products from any manufacturer, regardless of profit margins.

Jesse

[SUPERMANSTANLEY]

1 Fast 400 has know motives.... He wants to get the quality he pays for and his customer pays for!! Thats all. He is a straight up bro.

[Monte Cristo]

Jertschub, in your first and, so far, only post on this forum you wrote:
<P><b>
" It looks like 1fast400 in conjunction with certain unnamed parties (duh, you think I don't see you?), who have formed a recent partnership, have gotten together to make Alex look bad and Alex being Alex has helped them every step of the way. I think this unnamed sleezebag is planning to expand into the protein business and would like to see PF knocked out of the game or at least knocked down several pegs. I'm no huge fan of Alex's but I do think in essence he is an honest guy who wants to run an honest business. He is just goofy and dumb."</b><p>
It looks more like you are shiling for PF,
trying to throw mud on 1fast400 and at the same time ignoring the other specific PF customer complaints presented on this thread.

[AliveGuy]

Unammed Sleezbag?!? WTF are you talking about. I think each and everyone of us knows 1Fast400 is too dimwitted and slow to form a proper alliance with anyone..the thought it preposterous. j/k Mike...this guy needs he prozac!!!

[Younggunz]

Well, it has started...Check out some protein question threads and you might start seeing brand new members suggesting **************!!! Great, looks like we have another Syntrax or MuscleTech on our hands!

[brooklyn mike]

when is this protein customizer site opening cause i dont wanna have to order from pf again....

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Jertschub, if you are in fact referring to me in your post I would like to clear some things up. First, I can’t argue with you in that on the surface this whole situation does not look good and quite honestly it's damn well not the way I am preferring to launch this business. So with that in mind I would like to give you some history on my situation.

I started Protein Creations (www.proteincreations.net) in August of 2001. With that company I have been running custom proteins for numerous athletes and strength coaches, sort of a private client list of highly interested parties if you will. Intensity Magazine had been my initial launch for the business and with that I developed a list of athletes I have been working with exclusively since. I closed off my custom run segment of the business to new customers in early '02 and subsequently opened a retail line of product through the magazine. However through this time I have maintained supply of custom orders to my original list of people.

With this in mind I decided about 5 months ago (why not) to continue on with a company that can provide this service again for everyone to benefit, there is obviously a high demand for it, I’ve got the mixers, I work with only impeccable quality control, I have some of the best flavor systems you can ever imagine, and I have the buying power to bring forth unprecedented price levels on proteins and various chemicals to everyone which in this economy is obviously a nice thing.

As for some strategic partnership or alliance with 1fast400 or anyone else for that matter it simply is false, I work alone and only alone and am not conspiring against anyone. I have not visited the message boards in probably 8 months due to time constraints, that is until yesterday when I was alerted to the post regarding the confidential email I had sent to my list with the tentative new pricing and specials, so until that point I didn’t even realize Protein Factory had been involved in all the recent hoopla with the testing. I do not know Mike from 1fast400 personally, I have only chatted with him one time a couple months ago on messenger and that was only in regards to him carrying my retail line, nothing more. Ohh and I asked for his opinion on Tranquil-G because I am lacking sleep in a big way.

I do know Mike tests his retail products and assume he will be doing the same to mine, I also will assume he will test a batch of Customizer’s product at some point in the future as well. It appears to me he is testing everyone’s and merely posting the results whatever they may be.

Other than that all I can say is a reiteration of my statement above, this is damn well not the way I intended to launch this business. I want to gain loyal customers because they are happy with me, not because they are unhappy with someone else. I want to gain loyal customers through providing the best product and service at the best price, I want to make them happy with the whole experience of dealing with Customizer and whatever level of business that brings me to I will be quite satisfied with knowing that my customers feel the same.

I sincerely hope this clears up any misconceptions you may have.

Best Regards,
David Rosland

[AliveGuy]

Wait a sec...somethings wrong here and Im not buying it! A protein customizer that knows proper English and how to address a community without insulting them?!? Unprecedented...since weve never seen one of these before we must be weary!

[Flee Priest]

Definitely more eloquent a guy he is, I sense the protein synthesis is strong in this one... may the Pump be with you, I'm just glad I live in a country far, far, away...

[Baby Huey]

Customizer, I think I can speak for a lot of bros when I say we look forward to trying out your products. Thanks for some rational, literate replies to all the mud-slinging going around.

[brooklyn mike]

customizer what are u goin to offer is it gonna be the same type thing like the protein factory or different proteins...

[jweave23]

Originally posted by Baby Huey
Customizer, I think I can speak for a lot of bros when I say we look forward to trying out your products. Thanks for some rational, literate replies to all the mud-slinging going around.

Agreed. I'm anxious to see the goods. Customizer will get quite a bit of business if his products, service, and attitude are good.

[Sixpack]

Ok so when is it coming out when can we purchase it
Sixpack

[brooklyn mike]

as long as th protein is quality and it doesnt have boogers or pubic hairs in it u have my business...

[jweave23]

Originally posted by brooklyn mike
as long as th protein is quality and it doesnt have boogers or pubic hairs in it u have my business...

Same here. lol, you have a way with words Mike!

[China Boy]

I have read all the posts in this thread with great interest. Although I have never used PF or ever will being in a distant country I believe Mike cannot be without his motives. Ok he says he tests purely for the interests of the board. I just cannot believe that. He runs a business and must justify the expenses he makes. Hopefully he can profit from it, right?

As a fellow business owner I know exactly what he is up to. Simply trying to make his presence felt and hence the profile of his own business. He can do it other ways, but the board won't allow it. So he comes up with this testing stuff which makes him look good with the board. It is all marketing!


Mike, what you are doing is great, but either do it properly or don't do it at all. One tested sample is not at all statistically representative of an entire batch let alone the quality control of a manufacturer.

Alex, you are in the wrong profession.

[Jertschub]

Look at all you lemmings jumping off the PF bandwagon because of some nicely written ad copy. Did you people learn nothing from Bill Phillips? There was a man who knew how to market and boy did he. He marketed so hard you were left naked and bleeding rectally when he was done with you. So now someone comes along using similar hardball marketing tactics (the feels like deca "leak") and instead of recognizing it you want to know how soon you can give your CC number!

Bend over boy and grab those ankles!!

Sheesh. Anway, I think it is premature to dump PF just yet and I think those of you that are doing just that, for some unknown startup, are foolish. In a very real way Alex is just like one of us and could even be me (minus about 90 IQ points). He is a little too emotional maybe but its REAL and unedited. I think he deserves a little more benefit of the doubt.

[brooklyn mike]

thanks for opening up my eyes Jertschub i now see the light.

[dio]

Originally posted by Jertschub
Look at all you lemmings jumping off the PF bandwagon because of some nicely written ad copy. Did you people learn nothing from Bill Phillips? There was a man who knew how to market and boy did he. He marketed so hard you were left naked and bleeding rectally when he was done with you. So now someone comes along using similar hardball marketing tactics (the feels like deca "leak") and instead of recognizing it you want to know how soon you can give your CC number!

Bend over boy and grab those ankles!!

Sheesh. Anway, I think it is premature to dump PF just yet and I think those of you that are doing just that, for some unknown startup, are foolish. In a very real way Alex is just like one of us and could even be me (minus about 90 IQ points). He is a little too emotional maybe but its REAL and unedited. I think he deserves a little more benefit of the doubt.

Mike,

Please do not make any assumptions about the knowledge level of the people on this board. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Alex lost more customers from the way he reacted than anything else. I was hoping that the sample I sent would vindicate him, as I have always been happy with the service. However, his behavior here and elseware has put me and many others off.

[Younggunz]

Another brand new person saying this is all wrong. I'm serious, this is getting to be like MuscleTech BullSh*t!!!!!