No soreness = no growth???

[herzblutx88]

I dont get it, I train my biceps so hard, I do the 3-4 sets of dumbell curls, breacher crawls, 21's etc. but my biceps never feel soar. Does this mean they arent growing? Cuz I know when I do my triceps I can feel it. I do the poke test... I'm sure you know what I mean. Anyway let me know.

Also when I train my chest a lot of the times I dont feel it the next day but 2 days later. strange or common?

[Lamdun]

Do heavy back exercises and finish your bis off afterwards. However, soreness does not necessarily equal growth. My delts havent been sore from a workout for months now but they are a lot bigger.

By the way, take the 21s out.

[AnaerobicAndrew]

Do heavy back exercises and finish your bis off afterwards. However, soreness does not necessarily equal growth. My delts havent been sore from a workout for months now but they are a lot bigger.

By the way, take the 21s out.

Listen to Lamdun, soreness does not equal prgoress. And 21's suck.

[W8isGR8]

Yeah, what they said

[GADO]

Think of it this way... it's almost like drinking. You can drink yourself stupid one night, and wake up the next day with no hangover feeling fine... same way you can train really hard, and not feel sore the next day. Doesn't mean you didn't train hard enough.

As it's been said time and again... soreness doesn't necessitate gains. As for the 21s... I don't see anything wrong with those, I sometimes do 21s to finish off my biceps and it leaves me with a crazy pump. So, to each his own I say.

[slippy]

It's not unusual for DOMS to set in a day late. Muscles can grow without DOMS; otherwise, only beginners would grow.

I do the 3-4 sets of dumbell curls, breacher crawls, 21's etc. but my biceps never feel soar.

That's not enough to make biceps sore for most people. Most variations of bicep curls do not stimulate biceps better than the basic back exercises. Therefore, concentrate on the back exercises and go heavy. If you're still unhappy about the biceps growth (which are a small muscle anyway), then there are specific things you can do to help. But, if you're not going heavy with the back exercises, that should be the first place.

[RipStone]

It's not unusual for DOMS to set in a day late. Muscles can grow without DOMS; otherwise, only beginners would grow.



That's not enough to make biceps sore for most people. Most variations of bicep curls do not stimulate biceps better than the basic back exercises. Therefore, concentrate on the back exercises and go heavy. If you're still unhappy about the biceps growth (which are a small muscle anyway), then there are specific things you can do to help. But, if you're not going heavy with the back exercises, that should be the first place.

Good advice here^^^.

You will develop much better biceps if yoi focus on compound lifts for your back. Specificlly, bent over BB rows, pullups, and chins(add weight if you need to).

Also, soreness(DOMS) is not a good indicator of muscle growth. Judge your workout's by being able to increase the volume each session.

[LeperG]

Herzblutx88, I know what you mean, no matter how hard you try and kill your biceps ...they never feel sore.

I agree with the comments above, however for me the one exercise that makes my biceps feel sore (if that's what you want?), are performing bicep curls using a rope attached to the lower cable attachment on a crossover machine and performing the palms up twisting action when lifting, ensuring you have good form... I do this in combination with other bicep exercises and it works a treat, ...for me anyway.

[BigNorwegian]

I dont get it, I train my biceps so hard, I do the 3-4 sets of dumbell curls, breacher crawls, 21's etc. but my biceps never feel soar. Does this mean they arent growing? Cuz I know when I do my triceps I can feel it. I do the poke test... I'm sure you know what I mean. Anyway let me know.

Also when I train my chest a lot of the times I dont feel it the next day but 2 days later. strange or common?

Soreness does not necessarily mean growth. If you are on a solid diet with a good multi and the right supplements, you shouldn't even feel that sore after a workout. However, you may want to rearange your routine. Scratch the 21s, they're just an excersise which trainers try to put on those which they train because they seem to "feel" like their building muscle, and look like a good "technique". Yet to me they're just an endurance excersise to a muscle which should never need endurance training. There is no sport or physical activity where you biceps play a crucial role, therefore I believe 21s are useless.

You may want to focus your bicep training on the fact you are able to train the inner and outter peaks of your bicep. For instance I will do three sets of seated preacher curl with a wide grip, then three sets of narrow grip. Then I will do three sets of hammer curls, and then four sets of regular dumbbell curls. My last excersise for my biceps are double cross cable curls. I have the cables set at around 6 - 12 inches above shoulder height, and I generally stand 4 inches infront of where perfect alignment would be, thus when I curl I touch the back of my ears with my middle finger knuckle from each hand.

My last suggestion, as many have stated before me, is make sure you do your bicep excersises after your back excersises. With compound excersises, size and strength for smaller muscles wil deffinately come in time.

[ShreddedShruggin]

Yeah these guys pretty much summed it up

-Grimface

[MrSinister]

its been said a million times and the sooner the newbies listen to it the sooner they can move on in life, soreness doesnt equal growth, run along kids.

[W8isGR8]

its been said a million times and the sooner the newbies listen to it the sooner they can move on in life, soreness doesnt equal growth, run along kids.

I could argue this, but nobody would care.

[MrSinister]

I could argue this, but nobody would care.

im up for it

[W8isGR8]

im up for it

It has to do with the idea that Doms is caused by microtrauma to the muscle cells, causing Ca to leak into the muscle. The following chain reaction is what causes growth.

[W8isGR8]

The Process Of Exercise-Induced Muscle Cell Damage
Actin/myosin filaments sustain "damage" during high-tension contractions. In addition, breaches in plasma membrane integrity allow calcium to leak into the muscle cells after training (there is much more calcium in the blood than in the muscle cells). This intracellular increase in calcium levels activates enzymes called "calpains" which "break off" pieces of the damaged contractile filaments (called "easily releasable myofilaments"). Following this, a protein called "ubiquitin" (which is present in all muscle cells) binds to the removed pieces of filaments thus "identifying" them for destructive purposes. At this time, neutrophils (a type of granular white blood cell that is highly destructive) are chemically attracted to the area and rapidly increase in number. They release toxins, including oxygen radicals, which increase membrane permeability and ****ocytize (ingest and "destroy") the tissue debris that the calcium-mediated pathways released. Neutrophils don't remain around more than a day or two, but are complimented by the appearance of monocytes also attracted to the damaged area. Monocytes (a type of ****ocytic cell) enter the damaged muscle and form into macro****es (another ****ocytic cell) that also release toxins and ****ocytize damaged tissue. Once the ****ocytic stage commences, the damaged fibers are rapidly broken down by lyso****l proteases, free O2 radicals, and other substances produced by macro****es. As you can tell, the muscle is now in a weaker state than before it was trained. Incidently, macro****es have an essential role in initiating tissue repair. Unless damaged muscle is invaded by macro****es, activation of satellite cells and muscle repair does not occur.

Also, increased intracellular Ca++ concentrations are known to activate an enzyme called phospholipase A2. This enzyme releases arachidonic acid from the plasma membrane which is then formed into prostaglandins (primarily PGE2) and other eicosanoids that contribute to the degradative processes.

So, now that we've seen how the muscle gets damaged, how does it grow?

The Process Of Exercise-Induced Muscle Growth
It was mentioned in the The Neuromuscular System Part I: What A Weight Trainer Needs To Know About Muscle article that muscle cells have many nuclei and other intracellular organelles. This is because nuclei are intimately involved in the protein synthesis process (don't forget, actin and myosin are proteins), and a single nuclei can only support so much protein. If muscle cells didn't have multiple nuclei they would be very small muscle cells indeed. So if a muscle is to grow beyond its current size (i.e. synthesize contractile proteins - actin and myosin) it has to increase the number of nuclei that it has (called the "myonuclei number"). How does it do this? Well, around the muscle cells are "myogenic stem cells" called "satellite cells" (or "myoblasts"). Under the right conditions these cells become more "like" muscle cells and actually donate their nuclei to the muscle fibers (very nice of them). For this to happen, to any degree, several things need to take place. One, the number of satellite cells has to increase (called "proliferation"). Two, they have to become more "like" muscle cells (called "differentiation"). And three, they have to fuse with the needy muscle cells.

When the sarcolemma (the muscle cell wall) is "damaged" by tension (as in weight training or even stretching) growth factors are produced and released in the cell. There are several different types of growth factors. The most significant are:


Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1)
Fibroblast Growth Factor (FGF)
Transforming Growth Factor -Beta Superfamily (TGF-beta)
These growth factors can then leave the cell and go out into the surrounding area because sarcolemma permeabilty has been increased due to the "damage" done during contraction. Once outside the muscle cell these growth factors cause the satellite cells to proliferate (mainly FGF does this) and differentiate (mainly IGF-1 does this). TGF-beta actually inhibits growth - but everything can't be perfect. After this process the satellite cells then fuse with the muscle cells and donate their nuclei. The muscle cell can now grow.

[AlxandrTheGreat]

OOOOOOH ****! MrSinister just got PWN3D!

[slippy]

I think the big discussion right now is whether mechanical strain or the calceurin pathways/concentration of Ca2+ ions is the most important factor in promoting sarcomere hypertrophy and the donation of satellite cells. The third major factor, release of free radicals, at this point doesn't appear to be "that" significant in contributing to the MAPKp38 signal.

It's an academic discussion but it does have important repercussions on optimizing exercise selection and technique. Also -- and this is when bodybuilding theory starts to break from the 90s strength-training theories -- it also suggests that MU recruitment and other CNS-ish variables related to strength performance may not adequately describe how your training will induce growth.

DOMS is still not understood *that* well. I subscribe to the release of Ca2+ ions, since it also fits in nicely with the temporary inhibition of a muscle's contractile "sensitivity" to a given excitation charge. I'm still not sure whether the release of those ions in itself starts off the chain of events. It does seem that damage to the sarcolemma seems to kick off everything. If the sarcolemma is unaffected, there's no need for the muscle to be repaired.

[MrSinister]

OOOOOOH ****! MrSinister just got PWN3D!

ah if u think so..

ive read them articles too, and other ones they basically say scientists even today don't know exactly which triggers DOMS that everyone is obsessed with... Putting aside all the overanalysed scientific jargon, whatabout the simple fact that me, and im sure 99% of ppl on here grow without getting DOMS?

[Animalwannabe]

I'm not sure. I am sore everyday and have grown. I've also had days where I wasn't sore and grown. I think it may be a fact of nutrition, but don't quote me on it because I'm almost sure I'm wrong.

[W8isGR8]

ah if u think so..

ive read them articles too, and other ones they basically say scientists even today don't know exactly which triggers DOMS that everyone is obsessed with... Putting aside all the overanalysed scientific jargon, whatabout the simple fact that me, and im sure 99% of ppl on here grow without getting DOMS?

But the million dollar question is.........







Does DOMS cause more growth?

[W8isGR8]

If the sarcolemma is unaffected, there's no need for the muscle to be repaired.

There it is, bodybuilding in a nutshell. You have to break it down before you build it up.

[AlxandrTheGreat]

ah if u think so..

ive read them articles too, and other ones they basically say scientists even today don't know exactly which triggers DOMS that everyone is obsessed with... Putting aside all the overanalysed scientific jargon, whatabout the simple fact that me, and im sure 99% of ppl on here grow without getting DOMS?

HEH HEH!! Nah just fu fu fu foolin'!

[RU4A69]

Certain muscles are FAR more prone to DOMS than others. Bi's are not very prone to DOMS-same as delts.

[AlxandrTheGreat]

But the million dollar question is.........







Does DOMS cause more growth?

No way... I could hike up a mountain trail or sprint on a track and get sore but I wouldn't be expecting to GROW just because I was sore.

I used to get so sore it was miserable I hated being intensely sore and feeling weak because of it. Not so much a problem now that I eat right and train with the perfect amount of volume and high-intensity for my body to get bigger and stronger without overtraining or intense muscle soreness.

[W8isGR8]

Certain muscles are FAR more prone to DOMS than others. Bi's are not very prone to DOMS-same as delts.

Fact.




It seems my ass is though. Did that come out wrong?

[AlxandrTheGreat]

I don't know but we do now know that it must have went in right!

[MrSinister]

possible (read: possible placebo creatine effect) coincidence... but since i started a cycle of glutamine a while ago ive never had much doms since.

Another note, this year as of since january calfs were 40cm flat, now 44.5 (cold) and not once in them nearly 12 months were they ever sore EXCEPT this one day when i did a whole all calf overkill day, must of done about 25 sets all of of sitting and standing calf raises, sore the next day was an understatement.. but every other session was a bit more sedate and the results are there.
THEN like W8 was suggesting, u could argue, if i had of done that huge calf session everytime, would i of gotten better results???
hrmmmm!
thats why bb'ing is so fun, the mystery factor

[W8isGR8]

possible (read: possible placebo creatine effect) coincidence... but since i started a cycle of glutamine a while ago ive never had much doms since.

Another note, this year as of since january calfs were 40cm flat, now 44.5 (cold) and not once in them nearly 12 months were they ever sore EXCEPT this one day when i did a whole all calf overkill day, must of done about 25 sets all of of sitting and standing calf raises, sore the next day was an understatement.. but every other session was a bit more sedate and the results are there.
THEN like W8 was suggesting, u could argue, if i had of done that huge calf session everytime, would i of gotten better results???
hrmmmm!
thats why bb'ing is so fun, the mystery factor

That's what I hate about it

[slippy]

No way... I could hike up a mountain trail or sprint on a track and get sore but I wouldn't be expecting to GROW just because I was sore.

Actually, in that scenario, you would if you ate in sufficient excess.

Does DOMS cause more growth?

I think the general consensus is that the training that causes DOMS will generate more growth than the training that didn't. It's, basically, a sign that there is very significant amount of microtears along the sarcolemma, leading to the release of more "good stuff" and inflammatory agents.

The reason why biceps rarely get sore has less to do with fiber composition than the fact that most bicep curls are the equivalent of tricep pushdowns.

Again, there are ways to generate a lot of microtrauma with biceps, but really trainees should start with the back heavies. Deadlifts. Chins. Even good mornings.

[MrSinister]

That's what I hate about it

but if it was all so simple we'd all be walking around huge and wouldn't be able stand out