ATrainer's Fly Challenge

[ATrainer]

Because of the repeated cries for help regarding chest training, and because I recieve many PMs requesting info on my flys, I have decided to make this thread. My flys were first featured in Natural Bodybuilding and Fitness in the Feb 2004 issue. Since then they are repeatedly featured in chest training articles in Men's Fitness, Exercise For Men Only, and Natural Bodybuilding & Fitness. You can also see them at http://www.exercisegroup.com/seriouslegtraining.html , although the description there is flawed.

In another chest thread, I challenged people in here to give them a try. An honest and productive trial is impossible without the correct description and pictures of the exercise. My next post will contain start and finish pictures and a detailed and strict description of this exercise. If you deviate from the exact correct technique of this exercise, you might as well not do them. It is difficult to exclude the anterior delt from any pec training, and ANY cheating or deviation from the proper technique will turn the movement into another delt exercise that doesn't properly hit the pecs.

That said, I give you the best pec developer around. Give it an honest try for a couple of months, and see if your pecs don't respond effectively.

I've included pics of the first two kids I trained with the flys. They were almost 16 yrs old, and I had trained them for about 4 months on the flys. They were your average teenagers wanting to get big when I started with them. Nothing impressive at all, until they started using my methods and techniques. This does work.

[ATrainer]

The three exercises ( http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...27&postcount=3 )are essentially the same movement performed in three different planes. In order to fully isolate the pecs, these muscles must be excluded from chest training. Precise technique in performing these exercises is critical. Any deviation from proper technique will render the exercises useless pertaining to chest development.

Without going too deep into the theories behind these exercises, let me explain how they are performed:

These exercises are performed on a cable crossover machine. Dumbbells are a waste of time for these exercises. You lay down between the pulleys. The pulleys must be positioned at shoulder height. If the pulley heights are adjustable, you may lay down on a flat bench. If they are not, you must lie on the floor and use the lower pulleys. Performing these exercises while standing will not work. You will waste too much energy on body stabilization, and open yourself up to cheating.

Next, you need to grasp the cables. A completely supinated grip is required. I used to use PVC and webbing handles, sliding the grip sideways, allowing me to grasp the handle in full supination. Recently, my training partner convinced me to simply grab the cables by the rubber stops. While not completely comfortable, especially without gloves, gripping the cable in this way has been adequate.

Essentially, you could describe the movement as a supinated cable fly. This description stops way short of the technical precision required to make these exercises work. All control of the movement must be focused on the elbows. While the hands connect your arm to the cable, they must remain completely uninvolved as if your arm didn't exist below the elbow. All visual and mental concentration must be focused on performing these flyes with supinated elbows.

These movements are very unnatural. Your body does not normally perform them in the real world, except for treading water. The difficulty in performing these exercises properly is that your brain will try to reposition your arm to bring the anterior deltoid into the movement. The deltoid has better leverage and is better suited to perform the movement. This is why complete supination is critical to the success of these exercises. Anything less than absolute supination allows the deltoid to override the pecs and the exercise is rendered useless.


In the starting position, you'll find yourself lying in a horizontal iron across position with your arms extended to the pulleys, grasping the cable (handle) with your hands and elbows rotated to full supination. To avoid excess strain on the elbows, the arm should be slightly bent. Perform the movement by squeezing the elbows toward each other until the arms are parallel. I try to move the elbows in as high an arc as possible, reaching as high as I can without my back coming off the bench. At that point, to squeeze out a peak contraction, I slightly rotate my elbows further toward each other while keeping my arms parallel. After this slight squeeze, I return to the starting position under full control.

To perform the flat bench equivalent, your arms will arc straight over your chest. To develop the lower pecs, arc them at a 45-degree angle over your belly. To develop the upper fibers of the chest that attach to the upper sternum and clavicle, you must scoot the bench toward your head about two feet, positioning your belly button directly between the pulleys. This causes you to arc your elbows in about a 30 to 40 degree arc across your chest toward your neck. This will feel totally unnatural, but it is the best way to put those fibers in the best alignment to exert force. If you watch someone who has done these exercises correctly for weeks, you will be able to see how awesome these movements cause the pecs to contract.

Let me emphasize that your body will naturally try to cheat. If your hands lead the movement, you will have rotated the anterior deltoid into full control of the movement. Also, at the top of the movement, many people will try to continue the movement by rotating their hands toward each other rather than the elbows. This will transfer all of the stress from the pecs to the anterior deltoids.

The best characteristic of these exercises is that done properly, you don't have to, nor can you, use very heavy weight. That means way fewer injuries. The average male can usually only perform the exercise properly with about 15 or 20 lbs. I taught the exercise to a police officer that easily benched 400 lbs. He was only able to perform the exercise for reps with 30 lbs. While teaching the exercises to my college students for the first time, I got a kick out of demonstrating the exercise with 40 lbs. I then asked the strongest guy I could find in the class to give it a try. The class was usually amused when he was unable to do even one rep.

Many of the guys I teach this exercise to come back weeks later telling me that they are up to 40 or 50 lbs. on the exercise. Without a doubt, every time I check them on their technique, they have grossly deviated from correct form. The anterior deltoids are capable of performing the movement with a lot of weight; proportionately more than the pecs. After correcting their form, these guys are always disappointed that they hadn't progressed as far as they thought they did. I have found that 2.5 lbs. is about the maximum amount of increase that can be sustained and still be able to progress week in and week out without losing technique.

[mangina]

^^. These have hit my pecs in ways that nothing else has. I put these in the beginning of my routine before any exercise, and I can literally feel my chest contract and burn like no other without any other muscle's help (no shoulders, no tris, etc)

[hairy ape]

In order to fully isolate the pecs, these muscles must be excluded from chest training.

you do these on a separate day from chest? if so, how many days should i put between the two? i can't wait to try these out

[ATrainer]

The three variations of my flys isolate the chest to the exclusion of delt and tris. I recommend doing tricep and delt work in the same workout if you are still doing any pressing movements for chest (even though you don't need to). You always need to give any muscle 48 hrs rest.

[Squats]

What do we win?

[mangina]

A bigger cup size. Tnight is my chest night and i cant wait to do these!!!

[ATrainer]

And you will have woman constantly asking to grope your pecs.

[Defiant1]

I did your flyes and began lactating...

[Worldwide]

I did your flyes and began lactating...

LMAO!

[MrSinister]

^^. These have hit my pecs in ways that nothing else has. I put these in the beginning of my routine before any exercise, and I can literally feel my chest contract and burn like no other without any other muscle's help (no shoulders, no tris, etc)

yes but have u grown??? and btw whenever your contract chest your front delt does too

[johnsbod]

yes but have u grown???

My chest has grown quite a bit from doing them.

[mick123]

What would be the difference between using dumbells and teh cables. Just that gravity has a different affect throughout. Like the weight is the same throughout with a cable but with dbs, the effect of gravity is less and less?

[majortrepak]

Is there a second best chest exercise for those of us who only have dumbells/barbells?

[PureMotivation]

Great post ATrainer, right now I go to an old gym and wont be able to do the "perry" fly's but I'l give the other type a shot and after Christmas I am switching to a better gym where I'll be able to do it all. I post my results for everyone after I've been using them for a while

[Bammy]

and btw whenever your contract chest your front delt does too

You can contract the pecs without the front delts. Its just not something most people are used to. Try it, it can be done.

[Ageispolis]

I try to move the elbows in as high an arc as possible, reaching as high as I can without my back coming off the bench.

Though this might be unrelated because it's a different exercise, but what about squeezing your shoulder blades toether?

[trem0lo]

I can't wait to try these. I've heard lots of good things about them, and I've always love the feel of DB flyes on my pecs, even though most rate them lowest on the list of "chest developer" exercises. When I get back into the gym later this month (I'm traveling for work now) I'll post some before/after pics. Hopefully this thread will still be alive

[MrSinister]

My chest has grown quite a bit from doing them.

did you only do flyes in this period or mix it with bench aswell? how can you differentiate what was the cause for growth out of the two?

[Lats McGee]

I'll give these a shot.

[johnsbod]

did you only do flyes in this period or mix it with bench aswell? how can you differentiate what was the cause for growth out of the two?

I had been doing incline, flat, and decline bench and I changed to incline and decline bench with ATrainer flyes at a slight incline. All I changed was that I dropped flat bench and added ATrainer flyes so it was pretty obvious.

[MrSinister]

I had been doing incline, flat, and decline bench and I changed to incline and decline bench with ATrainer flyes at a slight incline. All I changed was that I dropped flat bench and added ATrainer flyes so it was pretty obvious.

hrmm... still inconclusive

[johnsbod]

hrmm... still inconclusive

Whatever. Why don't you just try them for yourself?

[MrSinister]

Whatever. Why don't you just try them for yourself?

have, im not convinced flyes do anything, atrainer or not

[tbohacker]

Many many people have used his flyes and sware by them building their chests. However, there are just as many people who doubt them. When he posted this a year or so ago people went crazy for them. Its a good thing he brought this topic up again, maybe new peope will give them a try and see what they can do.



Good Re-post Atrainer.

[MrSinister]

hopefully someone can really do an atrainer fly challenge! ie cut benching pressing out of their chest workout, do nothing but flyes and for a couple of months then come back and tell us how it went..

[JustR]

Good post!

I've only done them twice (and i'm sure my form was not 100%). But for those who have done these do you have trouble feeling it in your chest when you do incline or is that just me? Again it could have just been my form.

[sabonis224]

have, im not convinced flyes do anything, atrainer or not

Agreed. I'm so tired of hearing about "his flys". I know he says that bench press does not work for chest but it is the only thing I have done for half a year now and my chest has grown considerably.

[Rocky_Maivia]

have, im not convinced flyes do anything, atrainer or not

You have a lot to learn.

[Andrew69]

Agreed. I'm so tired of hearing about "his flys". I know he says that bench press does not work for chest but it is the only thing I have done for half a year now and my chest has grown considerably.

Yeah, but you are 17 y/o. With the amunt of test you have coursing through your veins, you could get huge biceps by curling cans of coke