"The Case Against Explosive Lifting"

[Ron Schwarz]

"discuss amongst yourselves"

http://www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/mannieexplosion.html

[MrSinister]

gimme a few days to charge my reading fuse

[iron_on_my_mind]

Lifting for mass should never be explosive. It should be slow, controlled movements. Not just in terms of injury, but in terms of keeping the associated muscles under tension for alonger period of time.

This is gospel.

Besides, I defy anyone to do do their one-rep max in an explosive fashion.

[ozzyfan]

Dee dee dee, that's so retarded. Your muscles are really designed to work explosively. Name one sport done in a slow controlled manner, please.

[moochems]

Dee dee dee, that's so retarded. Your muscles are really designed to work explosively. Name one sport done in a slow controlled manner, please.

Cross country?
edit*- Whatever name is given to Racing in row boats?
Swimming?

Anything endurace?

There are parts of muscles that work explosivley, and then parts (slow twitch) that don't.

mm I watched espn2's coverage of an arm wrestling tournament. Though the idea is an explosion of force, it rarley comes to that.

[ozzyfan]

Besides, Matt and Dr. Ken are a couple of crackpots akin to Mike Mentzer.

[BodySculpting]

The positive portion of a lift should always be done with raw power. There is a difference between doing it explosively with stupid form that can injure you and doing it explosively in terms of pushing as hard and fast as you can while still keeping form.

As for the article; anyone else can find 10 articles to dispute. Bodybuilding and science don't mix well. Science is ever changing, never certain. Do what works.

[iron_on_my_mind]

Define explosive.

When I'm cranking out my 1RM, I am shaking, nearly buckling under the pressure (which means the weight is adequate.) Although I am pushing with considerable force, it is hardly a "quick" movement.

Perhaps we're simply misunderstanding each other.

EDIT::::: alright, Bodysculpting has the right idea. THAT is what I meant.

[ozzyfan]

Cross country?

Swimming?

Anything endurace?

There are parts of muscles that work explosivley, and then parts (slow twitch) that don't.

mm I watched espn2's coverage of an arm wrestling tournament. Though the idea is an explosion of force, it rarley comes to that.

Any running, even long distance is explosive. Your body still goes airborne on every pace.

[ozzyfan]

Besides, I defy anyone to do do their one-rep max in an explosive fashion.

Ever see any strength sport????????? O-lifting, power lifting, strongman, track and field, highland games.

[iron_on_my_mind]

Bodybuilding lifts are done for REPS. There are no singles.

Again, I think we're misunderstanding "explosive."

[ozzyfan]

http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/v...sic_snatch.avi Why is it O-lifters have less frequent and lesser injuries than bbers???????????

[Dominik]

"discuss amongst yourselves"

http://www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/mannieexplosion.html

Interesting reading Ron. It seemed to be more focused on Olympic/power lifts though which are obviously quite different to typical compound exercises.

"Using momentum to lift a weight increases the internal forces encountered by a given joint; the faster a weight is lifted, the greater these forces are amplified -- especially at the points of acceleration and deceleration. When these forces exceed the structural limits of a joint, an injury occurs in the muscles, bones or connective tissue. No one knows what the exact tensile strength of ligaments and tendons are at any give moment. The only way to ascertain tensile strength is when the structural limits are surpassed."

Wouldn't you agree that training programs involving extended periods of submaximal work with greater "mechanical" work would help with the process of strengthening muscles, bones, and connective tissues? I know this is a different thread but it's worth mentioning that it would be another disadvantage to "failure training."

I recently posted a quote from V. Zatsiorsky's book where he stated Soviet weightlifters in preparation for the '88 Olympics only performed 7% of their lifts >90% of their max. If you disregard warm-ups, over 90% of their lifts took place between 60-90%, with an average intensity of 75%. Why am I mentioning this? Because all that submaximal training, ballistic or not, would better prepare them for the forces involved with maximal weights that in the earlier quote, could "exceed the structural limits of a joint."

[ozzyfan]

Interesting reading Ron. It seemed to be more focused on Olympic/power lifts though which are obviously quite different to typical compound exercises.

"Using momentum to lift a weight increases the internal forces encountered by a given joint; the faster a weight is lifted, the greater these forces are amplified -- especially at the points of acceleration and deceleration. When these forces exceed the structural limits of a joint, an injury occurs in the muscles, bones or connective tissue. No one knows what the exact tensile strength of ligaments and tendons are at any give moment. The only way to ascertain tensile strength is when the structural limits are surpassed."

Wouldn't you agree that training programs involving extended periods of submaximal work with greater "mechanical" work would help with the process of strengthening muscles, bones, and connective tissues? I know this is a different thread but it's worth mentioning that it would be another disadvantage to "failure training."

I recently posted a quote from V. Zatsiorsky's book where he stated Soviet weightlifters in preparation for the '88 Olympics only performed 7% of their lifts >90% of their max. If you disregard warm-ups, over 90% of their lifts took place between 60-90%, with an average intensity of 75%. Why am I mentioning this? Because all that submaximal training, ballistic or not, would better prepare them for the forces involved with maximal weights that in the earlier quote, could "exceed the structural limits of a joint."

But if you look at more recent times, the chinese and bulgarians are using much higher intensities, and seem to do quite well. Besides the soviets were masters of misinformation.

[Dominik]

Besides, I defy anyone to do do their one-rep max in an explosive fashion.

Iron, you can perform a lift explosively involving heavy weights without the bar seemingly moving "explosively." That's why with dynamic effort work based on improving RFD, weights closer to 50-70% of your max. are used. You can see and feel the bar moving faster.

Obviously with weights closer to your max., the bar might not seem to be moving faster, even though you've made a conscious attempt to generate maximum force.

[Dominik]

But if you look at more recent times, the chinese and bulgarians are using much higher intensities, and seem to do quite well. Besides the soviets were masters of misinformation.

Well, I'm not privy to that information so I can only go on what's been published. Zatsiorsky states the primary difference between the Bulgarian and Russian training in terms of intensity was the way they each calculated their "training max."

Here's a quote: "The training intensity of Bulgarian athletes is actually higher than it is for Soviet athletes. However, the real source for this discrepancy (600 vs. 4000 lifts a year) is not the training itself, but the method of determining maximal weight. In their plans and logs Soviet athletes use CFmm (competition max), while Bulgarians stick to the TFmm designation (1RM in a given training session)."

[ozzyfan]

I don't want to get off track here because there are others who are more privvy than I, BUT THE FACT REMAINS. Training explosively does not lead to more, or more severe injuries. Training explosively is training for sport or battle. Bodybuilders and the holy grail of hypertrophy have taken strength training hostage.

[Tyrbolift]

I never considered the type of training Dom favors (and myself) to be explosive as defined in that article. The article is talking about yanking, and screaming, and putting 100% into the reps and using momentum.

I think of it more like you begin slowly and lift with ever increasing speed which means more force must be used to constantly increase momentum. Then a somewhat slower, controlled, steadily slowing decline.

Call it mellow explosive. "ME."

[Jneves]

it seems most of his argument goes on the assumption that olympic lifts/speed squats are low force/high velocity movements... which in my opinion is total BS, near maximal force on many of the olympic lifts can be accomplished with 50% of 1RM

[Mr Lee]

You only need to take a look at the force/velocity graph to realise that they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
High force=low velocity and Low force=high velocity. Muscles cannot give all they have got when they contract quickly.

[Ron Schwarz]

You only need to take a look at the force/velocity graph to realise that they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
High force=low velocity and Low force=high velocity. Muscles cannot give all they have got when they contract quickly.

Yay, someone finally mentioned the force/velocity graph!

Yes, you cannot move a heavy weight "fast" unless you cheat. Sometimes you'll read about supposedly needing to push the weight as fast as possible to recruit all fibers. If the load is heavy enough, you've already recruited all of your fibers. In this case, trying to move the bar faster will result in you initially producing additional force through rate coding, followed by lowered force requirements - and hence reduced rate coding and even recruitment - later in the rep. When force requirements are reduced, motor units are progressively "shut off."

[Ron Schwarz]

The positive portion of a lift should always be done with raw power. There is a difference between doing it explosively with stupid form that can injure you and doing it explosively in terms of pushing as hard and fast as you can while still keeping form.

Think about this: on your last rep, i.e., the "failure/fatigue" rep, aren't you pushing as hard and as fast as you can? Irregardless of how you performed your previous reps.

[iron_on_my_mind]

Regardless of what "explosive" means on these boards, you are NOT to yank a weight up on your last rep.

Indeed, you must push as hard as you can on your final rep. Whether that's explosive, is really a matter of semantics. I find that substantial speed isn't characteristic of a final rep.

[Dominik]

Yay, someone finally mentioned the force/velocity graph!

Yes, you cannot move a heavy weight "fast" unless you cheat. Sometimes you'll read about supposedly needing to push the weight as fast as possible to recruit all fibers. If the load is heavy enough, you've already recruited all of your fibers. In this case, trying to move the bar faster will result in you initially producing additional force through rate coding, followed by lowered force requirements - and hence reduced rate coding and even recruitment - later in the rep. When force requirements are reduced, motor units are progressively "shut off."

That's right, we were discussing it the other day. Above a certain threshold, it varies from muscle to muscle, recruitment is no longer an issue and it's the firing rate (rate coding) that increases force production.

You raised a good point about the decrease in velocity after several reps. No matter how hard you try, you cannot accelerate the bar at the rate you did for the first rep. However, that does not mean those initial reps performed explosively won't make a difference. Improving RFD with submaximal weights (dynamic effort work) can translate to greater strength gains with heavier loads.

Let's hear from someone who both understands the topic and lifts heavy weights. Dave Tate from Westside:

"[Dynamic effort work] isn't used for the development of maximal strength but for the improved rate of force development and explosive force. Let's assume an athlete can only get so strong for genetic reasons. If this lifter has reached his genetic strength potential and has been stuck for five years, can he not get stronger?

I was told at one time that I had reached this limit. I was told this by several university professors in the field of exercise science. What they forgot is that if I learned how to better synchronize my muscles to perform, then I could get stronger by better neural activation. The result was 300 more pounds on my total! This is because at the time I may have only been activating 50% of my absolute strength potential. Through dynamic effort training I was able to activate 70 or 80%. (The percents are used as examples, this was never tested.) This is also a reason why the percent should never be as important as bar speed. Everybody has different motor learning and the advanced strength athlete will activate more than a novice athlete. This is why the more advanced the lifter is, the harder the work is."

[Little-Guy]

youre definitely wrong about "boat rowing" or crew as it is called. YOu are trying to go fast, so as soon as your oar is in the water, you wanna pull as hard as you can while still maintaing form. As someone who did crew, You definitely need to be explosive to win.

[RU4A69]

"discuss amongst yourselves"

http://www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/mannieexplosion.html

My injuries on bench and Decline weighted ab crunches (neither of which do I do explosively, but in a controlled fahsion)=3

Injuries incurred during Deadlifts, Clean and Press, and Hang Cleans (all fo which I do explosively)=Zip


It's an issue of form and using too much weight-which is dangerous regardless of speed.

[Dominik]

It's an issue of form and using too much weight-which is dangerous regardless of speed.

Well said. People can injure themselves lifting at any tempo.

And the form doesn't have to always be "textbook." Ron, take a look at Konstantin Konstantinovs deadlifting 906lbs (411kg). Even the setup is explosive.

[$AJ]

meh, who cares. it's a 50% issue 50% will take one side, 50% the other. it's inevitable

It's an issue of form and using too much weight-which is dangerous regardless of speed.

^^^

[HoosierBoy]

Lifting for mass should never be explosive. It should be slow, controlled movements. Not just in terms of injury, but in terms of keeping the associated muscles under tension for alonger period of time.

This is gospel.

Besides, I defy anyone to do do their one-rep max in an explosive fashion.

How the heck else would you do a one-rep max? Do slower negatives and explosive positives.

[forklift]

what i read about explosive (meaning for example, on a pullup, you pull up as fast as you can for every rep!) is that it is good for "endurance", not strength.

so, you could conclude that doing pull-ups, pulling as fast as possible on the way up for 5 reps might help you increase total reps you can do at 'normal' speed.