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  1. #1
    Registered User 36crazyfists's Avatar
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    Writting a DNP paper

    I'm currently writing a paper about DNP for my College English class.

    I'm looking for sources that would help me write a paper convincing people that it's safe as long as taken correctly, and could be a great weapon to combat the surge of obesity afflicting our population.

    If anyone could help that'd be splendid.
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    http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/bach/dnp.htm

    Two years later DNP was banned by the FDA as a dieting agent due to its inclusion in many OTC dietary supplements. The FDA was a new organization at this time and acted in a rather brazen manner, with the absence of any set procedures for taking substances off the market. Granted, there was only a 1% incidence of cataracts over a large population (around 100,000); nonetheless it happened (although interestingly, exclusively women).
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    Registered User dan7681's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 36crazyfists View Post
    I'm currently writing a paper about DNP for my College English class.

    I'm looking for sources that would help me write a paper convincing people that it's safe as long as taken correctly, and could be a great weapon to combat the surge of obesity afflicting our population.

    If anyone could help that'd be splendid.
    well you set yourself up for a losing argument
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    Registered User 36crazyfists's Avatar
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    It's not required to be written in the argument form. I can just write it as a research paper if I wish.

    Do you guys think it would be to hard to argue my previously stated point?
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    how do u argue poeple are going to take it correctly? any type of drug can be abused. not much of a paper if u ask me
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    Registered User dan7681's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 36crazyfists View Post
    It's not required to be written in the argument form. I can just write it as a research paper if I wish.

    Do you guys think it would be to hard to argue my previously stated point?
    Yeah I think so. In my personal opinion using DNP in general is a stupid idea and makes even less sense for an obese individual. I don't really think there is a safe way to take DNP and dosages would vary way to much between individuals and DNP doesn't leave much room for error (which we lead to an unacceptable rate of overdosages). Also someone who is obese has become that way because of their bad eating habits and lack of exercise. They do not need a drug to lose weight but rather correct diet and exercise habits. No drug can counteract the effects of poor eating and excercise habits.

    Now from a stand point of researching approval of DNP this would be a difficult task. First off DNP was used in the past and was then banned. Most of the research and studies readily available are against DNP. Also most people not included in the bodybuilding scene would be wary of DNP. I'm sure you can find sites promoting DNP but many of these people/sites usually have little or no credentials (most certified medical professionals would be against DNP) and many lack any substantial evidence backing their claims.

    I mean the public couldn't even correctly use ephedrine, do you really think they could handle something like DNP?
    Last edited by dan7681; 11-27-2007 at 10:51 PM.
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    Fat ppl have no business using DNP.

    IMO only competitive bb'ers should use it. Or those prepping for a photo shoot to further there career.
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    PM Conciliator. The guy seems like an expert on the subject.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
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    Here is a nice little thread/argument on the safety of DNP

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=999059

    Conciliator seems to think DNP is safe even though the majority argue and disagree with him

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1097341
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1276141
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1085921
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    Yes I'm finding more and more that there's not going to be enough information for the safe use of DNP. I'm going to write the paper as an informative/research paper instead.

    That's a great point by the way.. if the general public cannot use ephedrine correctly, then DNP is a long shot.

    I disagree that it should never be used though. I think it should be used on prescription basis to severely obese people.
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    By the way,
    I'd rep the hell out of all of you guys adding your opinions but sadly I have no rep points haha.
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    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    PM Conciliator. The guy seems like an expert on the subject.
    I agree. And the steroid section would be more geared towards helping you.

    Unfortunately, I think the majority of what you hear from anyone will be mainly speculation, I'm not sure of how much material is out there on DNP. Yes there is some, but overall, I'm not so sure.
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    Originally Posted by kappaz View Post
    Here is a nice little thread/argument on the safety of DNP

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=999059
    Every time I read this thread I scratch my head at Dr. P's posts. He begins by making up complete nonsense about DNP and then blows off all of my quotes and references from the clinical research when he finds a few idiosyncratic case reports. This is a good representation of how things have gone between Dr.P and me. He invents false things about DNP (he loves to speculate and state it as fact), I refute that nonsense with the clinical research in humans, and then he plays stupid like he doesn't understand and wastes everyone's time.

    You've got to love the ending in that thread with Kohen Gadol, who excuses himself after being proven wrong about the treatment for DNP overdose. Like Dr.P, he's extremely ignorant about DNP, but he still has a lot to say... that's how it always goes with the anti-DNP sensationalists.
    Last edited by Conciliator; 11-27-2007 at 11:28 PM.
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    Originally Posted by cal62887 View Post
    http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/bach/dnp.htm

    Two years later DNP was banned by the FDA as a dieting agent due to its inclusion in many OTC dietary supplements. The FDA was a new organization at this time and acted in a rather brazen manner, with the absence of any set procedures for taking substances off the market. Granted, there was only a 1% incidence of cataracts over a large population (around 100,000); nonetheless it happened (although interestingly, exclusively women).
    This is a good example of misinformation in DNP guides. DNP wasn't banned two years after being put on the market. First, it didn't enter the market in 1931. It was 1933. Second, it was on the market for 5 years, until 1938, not two years. Third, it wasn't specifically banned, but the FDA started putting pressure on manufacturers who voluntarily withdrew it from the market rather than contend with the FDA. Fourth, the FDA wasn't a new organization. It had been around for over three decades. Rather, it had recently been given more power to regulate "cosmetic" drugs, including DNP. Fifth, cataracts didn't happen exclusively in women. There were at least three case reports in men from the 1930's.

    ...and this is from Damian Bachs, who has one of the better guides out there. Yikes.
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    Thanks for showin' up Conciliator! I've already realized that there's no way I can write a convincing paper advocating the legal use of DNP for weight loss so I'm just writing the paper as an informative / research piece. Not as fun but eh, it'll do.
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    Originally Posted by dan7681 View Post
    well you set yourself up for a losing argument
    I disagree. I think that's the perception most people have. And I think it's shortsighted.

    Death: First, lets talk about the mortality rate with DNP. You may think deaths were the primary reason that DNP was taken off the market, but you'd be wrong. Look at the numbers for a second. First, let me quote Horner from his extensive 1941 review:
    A total of nine deaths have been reported from the use of dinitrophenol and one from dinitro-ortho-cresol. 60-69 Three patients died from overdoses. Three of the remainder had agranulocytosis. In the majority of cases death occurred within twenty-four hours after the onset of such toxic manifestations as dizziness, fatigue, dyspnea, high temperature, intense thirst, and excessive perspiration. As had been observed in animals, rigor mortis set in immediately after death.
    There very well could have been more deaths that were not reported, but this is what we have record of. In its first year on the market, DNP was estimated by Tainter to have been used by 100,000 people. Assuming consistent growth of the userbase over the 5 years it was on the maker, I'd estimate around half a million people took the drug. Now based on the numbers outlined above, we're looking at a mortality rate of maybe 1:55,555 people. And that's when people were buying DNP over the counter, like candy, and self-medicating. As you've probably heard me say before, death from DNP is very rare; much lower than your typical bodybuilder imagines it to be. For perspective, here's a picture of a 50,000 person stadium, interestingly enough, at Stanford.

    Unfortunately, I can guarantee that the mortality rate in recent times (among bodybuilders, for example) is much higher. This is undoubtedly due to the careless and excessive dosages that are frequently seen as users try to push the envelope and maximize fat loss. It's primarily an issue of inappropriate/hasty dosing protocols, though there are also recent reports of suicide. Fortunately, longer, lower-dose cycles are becoming more and more popular. With careful oversight, I think the risk is at least as low as the 1930's statistic, and probably even lower. Unless you have a severe pre-existing health condition, like a dysfunctional liver, DNP is not going to kill you as long as you simply exercise good dosing practices. Even if you're somewhat careless, overdose is rare.

    Cataracts: The primary reason DNP was removed from the market was because of the formation of cataracts. There were 170 some odd case reports from the 1930's. Based on my numbers, that's an incidence rate of 0.04%. Horner estimated the incidence rate to be between 0.1% and 1%. While the cause was unknown in the 1930's, we're now empowered with more information, including possible preventative measures. This is very important, as cataracts were the main reason DNP was discontinued. If they can be prevented, then one could make a case that DNP should be allowed back on the market.

    I think there's good evidence supporting antioxidants. Early research in the 1930's and 40's made a bunch of different hypotheses about the etiology. Some thought the cataracts were caused by oxygen deficiency and lactic acid buildup in anaerobic metabolism (which is predominant in the lens). Others thought it was because of interference with glycolysis. Some thought it was secondary to liver damage (though DNP was found not to be hepatotoxic).

    The best research came in the 1950's by Ogino and Yasukura. They found that guinea pigs fed a vitamin C deficient diet developed cataracts while those that were supplemented with vitamin C did not. As they explained, "In these experiments, it is clear that there is a close relationship between the production of cataract and vitamin-C deficiency." They then went on, through a series of fascinating steps, to isolate the cataractogenic metabolite of DNP. They identified it as 2-amino-p-quinonimine. They found that the hydroxyl- and nitro-radicals of DNP in the p-position of the benzene ring are essential to the production of dinitrophenol cataract. There are various other cataractogenic agents that are also quinoid substances.

    Ogino and Yasukura said "This suggests that a genetic predisposition plays an important role in susceptibility to this cataract. This notion is strengthened by the fact that, in spite of extensive experiments of long duration by many authors, it has been found impossible to produce dinitrophenol cataract experimentally in various other species, namely, in rats, rabbits, guinea pigs, and dogs, although Bettman observed dinitrophenol cataract in a special strain of mice."

    Rigdon did research on DNP induced cataracts in chickens and turkeys in 1959. He said "of course, necrosis in any tissue may occur by different mechanisms. However, the similarity of the effect of DNP and a deficiency of vitamin E on the lens may be significant."

    Personally, I think those who developed cataracts either 1) had a genetic predisposition as Ogino and Yasukura hypothesized, 2) were vitamin C/E deficient, or 3) both. As I pointed out in another thread, vitamin C supplementation didn't make it big until Linus Pauling in the 70's. I think it's very possible that these people in the 1930's were eating unbalanced diets and had antioxidant deficiencies. IMO, vitamin C, vitamin E, and other antioxidants would be expected to reduce the incidence rate or even prevent cataracts altogether. The incidence is already low enough to begin with that I don't think any supplements are "mandatory" while taking DNP, but for those who are susceptible, for whatever reason, a normal dose of vitamin C and E might offer some insurance.

    To the OP: You can't argue that DNP is completely safe when taken properly because there are risks. I think one could argue that it's "safe enough" when used properly though, especially if cataracts can be prevented with antioxidant supplementation in those who are susceptible. It should also be noted that DNP cataracts are easily removed with surgery. It's important to realize that in the 1930's obesity was not considered a health problem. It was considered a cosmetic issue. At the time, the FDA was weighing the potential dangers against the seemingly superficial cosmetic benefits. Today, however, obesity is recognized as a monumental health problem. So what you have are some major changes in the risk/benefit calculation. There's increased recognition of the health benefits in light of the dangers of obesity. At the same time, you have a possible reduction in the primary risk, catracts, if they can be prevented with antioxidant supplementation. I think one could strongly argue that the most effective fat burner in the history of mankind certainly has a place in the treatment of obesity. It could be argued that the health benefits of losing weight and reducing blood pressure quickly (which DNP does exceptionaly well) far outweigh the risks of cataracts and extremely isolated idiosyncratic reactions.

    Hope that helps,
    Conciliator
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    Originally Posted by creativedesignz View Post
    how do u argue poeple are going to take it correctly? any type of drug can be abused. not much of a paper if u ask me
    He's not arguing that people are going to take it correctly. I think your reading comprehension could use some work. He was going to argue that when it's taken properly, it's "safe" (as subjective as that is).
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    Conciliator I'd love to know where you get all your information.

    I'd like to use some of the information you're posting but I can't really use a message board for a research paper. Do you have any links?
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    Originally Posted by dan7681 View Post
    I mean the public couldn't even correctly use ephedrine, do you really think they could handle something like DNP?
    That made me chuckle, but it's sad that it's true. Heck, I know people that can't even be responsible with drinks like Redline or supps like NO-Xplode.
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    Originally Posted by dan7681 View Post
    Yeah I think so. In my personal opinion using DNP in general is a stupid idea and makes even less sense for an obese individual.
    To play devil's advocate here: don't obese individuals have the most to gain in terms of the health benefits? Why should the most powerful fat loss drugs be kept from the population that has the most to gain from their use?
    Originally Posted by dan7681 View Post
    I don't really think there is a safe way to take DNP and dosages would vary way to much between individuals and DNP doesn't leave much room for error (which we lead to an unacceptable rate of overdosages).
    Sure there is a safe way to take DNP. Good dosing protocols were established in the early clinical research by Cutting and Tainter, Simkins, and others. The key is slowly titrating the dose, starting low, staying at each dosage for 4-5 days, and then increasing the dosage as body temperature and side effects permit. You're right that dosages vary a lot from one person to the next. There's a great degree of variation in individual sensitivity to DNP. But this is accomdated for by the dosing protocol. Those who are more sensitive will stop at much lower dosages while those who are more tolerant will titrate to higher dosages.

    Also, see above. I think you're overestimating the risk of death from overdosing.
    Originally Posted by dan7681 View Post
    Also someone who is obese has become that way because of their bad eating habits and lack of exercise. They do not need a drug to lose weight but rather correct diet and exercise habits. No drug can counteract the effects of poor eating and excercise habits.
    I definitely agree. But some people will just never learn how to diet and exercise. It's a philosophical question about whether it's right to deny these people powerful drugs that could save their lives... in spite of their ignorace and slothfulness.
    Originally Posted by dan7681 View Post
    Now from a stand point of researching approval of DNP this would be a difficult task. First off DNP was used in the past and was then banned. Most of the research and studies readily available are against DNP. Also most people not included in the bodybuilding scene would be wary of DNP. I'm sure you can find sites promoting DNP but many of these people/sites usually have little or no credentials (most certified medical professionals would be against DNP) and many lack any substantial evidence backing their claims.
    See my long post above. I don't think arguing approval of DNP is so difficult a task in light of the research, which, contrary to your statement, I don't think is mostly "against DNP".
    Originally Posted by dan7681 View Post
    I mean the public couldn't even correctly use ephedrine, do you really think they could handle something like DNP?
    Look at the numbers from the 1930's. Could they handle it?
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    Look at the numbers from the 1930's. Could they handle it?
    Yeah, but it's not the 1930s. People today are much more casual about what they put in their bodies and tend to have the "more is better" mentality.
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    Originally Posted by 36crazyfists View Post
    Conciliator I'd love to know where you get all your information.

    I'd like to use some of the information you're posting but I can't really use a message board for a research paper. Do you have any links?
    I can't provide links simply because the original research isn't found online. Most of the early clinical work looking at DNP in humans is in 1930's copies of JAMA. You'll have to go to a library in order to get access to them. One paper that is found online, though, is Horner's 1941 review. He was an opthamologist and focuses primarily on the issue of cataracts, but he gives a thorough review nonetheless. You can find his paper here: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1315023

    Other papers you'd want to look at, if you have access, are the following:

    Harper, J. A., Dickinson, K., Brand, M. D.
    Mitochondrial Uncoupling as a Target for Drug Development for the Treatment of Obesity
    Obesity Reviews, Volume 2, Number 4, 1 November 2001 , pp. 255-265(11)
    [This one is available online if you have access to the journal]

    Tainter ML, Stockton AB, Cutting WC.
    Dinitrophenol in the treatment of obesity: Final Report.
    J Am Med Assoc 1935; 101:322?336.

    Cutting WC, Mehrtens HG, Tainter ML.
    Actions and uses of dinitrophenol: Promising metabolic applications.
    J Am Med Assoc 1933; 101: 193?195.

    Tainter ML, Stockton AB, Cutting WC.
    Use of dinitrophenol in obesity and related conditions: a progress report.
    J Am Med Assoc 1933; 101: 1472?1475.

    Cutting WC, Tainter ML.
    Metabolic actions of dinitrophenol with the use of balanced and unbalanced diets.
    J Am Med Assoc 1933; 101: 2099?2102.

    Simkins S.
    Dinitrophenol and desiccated thyroid in the treatment of obesity: a comprehensive clinical and laboratory study.
    J Am Med Assoc 1937; 108: 2110?2118.

    Hope that helps,
    Conciliator
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    Originally Posted by stewy37 View Post
    Yeah, but it's not the 1930s. People today are much more casual about what they put in their bodies and tend to have the "more is better" mentality.
    I'm not advocating anything, but shouldn't the ownice be on the consumer? Should alcohol be taken off the market because people binge drink and get alcohol poisoning? I'm just saying, the ownice is on the consumer in my opinion.

    I do agree with you though...people are foolish when it comes to most things being put into the body, and it could potentially be a disaster.
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    Originally Posted by stewy37 View Post
    Yeah, but it's not the 1930s. People today are much more casual about what they put in their bodies and tend to have the "more is better" mentality.
    Personally, I don't think you or me know enough about the 1930's to be able to say how casual they were with what they put in their bodies, or what their mentality was wrt to "more is better".
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    Originally Posted by ZacharyMills View Post
    I'm not advocating anything, but shouldn't the ownice be on the consumer? Should alcohol be taken off the market because people binge drink and get alcohol poisoning? I'm just saying, the ownice is on the consumer in my opinion.

    I do agree with you though...people are foolish when it comes to most things being put into the body, and it could potentially be a disaster.
    The onus?
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    The onus?
    Bah...I also typed that Sean Taylor's daughter will grow up without a "husband." It's obviously not my night!
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    Personally, I don't think you or me know enough about the 1930's to be able to say how casual they were with what they put in their bodies, or what their mentality was wrt to "more is better".
    Good point. I guess I'm going off of my observations of the attitudes of younger people vs older people when it comes to this sort of thing. Of course, that arguement could be pretty faulty as that difference in attitude toward what goes in people's bodies could be a maturity thing. It could also be the fact that as you get older and more set in your ways, you become more resistant to change.
    I would argue that society as a whole has gotten less conservative, but that arguement falls flat when you look at the amount of drugs that became popular in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

    So, I just picked my own argument apart
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    To the OP: I think one could argue that it's "safe enough" when used properly though, especially if cataracts can be prevented with antioxidant supplementation in those who are susceptible.

    I don't think any supplements are "mandatory" while taking DNP, but for those who are susceptible, for whatever reason, a normal dose of vitamin C and E might offer some insurance.

    1. there is no evidence from humans studies on the effects of antioxidant supplementation on the incidence rate of DNP-induced cataracts. therefore, the assumption that the intake of Vitamin C / E could reduce the risk of DNP-induced cataracts in humans is only a speculation. in terms of 'evidence based medicine', such evidence grade (evidence only from in vitro / animal studies) is not suited to give a recommendation a la: if you supplement with vitamin c / e then it's 'safe enough' (with regards to cataracts) or: vitamin c / e 'provides 'some insurance'.

    2.
    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    It should also be noted that DNP cataracts are easily removed with surgery.
    this statement suggests that cataracts, even if they should occur, are no 'big thing' because they are "easily removed by surgery". while it is correct that cataracts can be removed by surgery, one should have in mind that such a surgery will have life-long consequences for the patient (here: for the DNP-victim). during this surgery, the eye-lens is being removed
    and replaced by a stiff artifical lense. while the living human lense can easily adapt its thickness the artificial lens lacks completely this flexibility. consequence: you will need two (!) types of glasses throughout your whole life: one for near-sight (e.g. reading) and one for the far-sight. moreover, every kind of surgery has an intrinsic risk (e.g. complications during anesthesia, bleeding etc.) of complications which could cause more damage to your body.
    Last edited by Dr.P; 11-28-2007 at 01:45 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    1. there is no evidence from humans studies on the effects of antioxidant supplementation on the incidence rate of DNP-induced cataracts. therefore, the assumption that the intake of Vitamin C / E could reduce the risk of DNP-induced cataracts in humans is only a speculation. in terms of 'evidence based medicine', such evidence grade (evidence only from in vitro / animal studies) is not suited to give a recommendation a la: if you supplement with vitamin c / e then it's 'safe enough' (with regards to cataracts) or: vitamin c / e 'provides 'some insurance'.
    When I said above that "then [Dr. P] plays stupid like he doesn't understand and wastes everyone's time", this is what I'm talking about. You argue here that the antioxidant defense theory is not suited to give a recommendation that DNP is "safe enough". Consistent with your poor comprehension and frequent straw men, you're misrepresenting me yet again. That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm not giving a recommendation that DNP is "safe enough" because of this theory. Rather, I say that if the theory is in fact the case, then one could argue that DNP is "safe enough". Those are two different things and you unsurprisingly muddle them together with sloppy oblivion. I make it clear that the antioxidant defense theory is merely a possibility. My statements are conditional on whether that possibility is in fact the case. For example:
    I think one could argue that it's "safe enough" when used properly though, especially if cataracts can be prevented with antioxidant supplementation in those who are susceptible.

    This is very important, as cataracts were the main reason DNP was discontinued. If they can be prevented, then one could make a case that DNP should be allowed back on the market.
    ...
    I think it's very possible that these people in the 1930's were eating unbalanced diets and had antioxidant deficiencies.

    ...a normal dose of vitamin C and E might offer some insurance.

    At the same time, you have a possible reduction in the primary risk, catracts, if they can be prevented with antioxidant supplementation
    Yet you make it sound as though I think the evidence for the theory (as it stands as a theory) is suitable for me to recommend that DNP is "safe enough". Nice try. Go make straw men somewhere else. My statement is a clear conditional. Don't act like it isn't.

    The point is that there is a good possibility that antioxidant supplementation could prevent cataract formation in those who are susceptible to it. This possibility is surely something that could be researched in modern clinical trials if DNP were reconsidered as a weight loss drug. In this case, all the conditional statements of mine (e.g. "if they can be prevented") would be true.

    Dr. P, I'm seriously amazed that you still respond in these DNP threads after you've been painfully exposed as very poorly informed on the topic (e.g. wrt mitochondrial oxidative stress, muscle loss, brain fog, heart rate and blood pressure, etc). Not to mention that your comprehension skills constantly lead to wasted time, like right now. As I've said before... it's futile to argue with you. Your interpretation, representaion, logic, and reasoning are terrible. It's a major waste of time responding to your sophistry.
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