Homebrew Perfected!!! New Recipe And Summary Of Perfecting Homebrew!!!

**curt2go** · 08-31-2002, 11:09 AM

Well, well, well... First I would just like to thank everyone that contributed to the perfecting homebrew thread....especially chemo. Also thanx for not turnign it into a fight thread you guys did awsome... Now enough mushy stuff lets get down to business.....

First off if you have not read the perfecting homebrew thread.. Go now and read this later...

Here is the recipe that has taken homebrewing to the next level..
This is the recipe that the scientist that specializes in transdermals said was probably 50% absorption....

40% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL (99%) OR EHTANOL(C1-C4 ALCOHOL)
15% ISOPROPYL MIRISTRATE
15% ISOPROPYL PALMITATE
10% OLEIC ACID
10% PROPYLENE GLYCOL
10% DMSO (99%)

DESCRITIONS OF WHY EACH IS USED...

ISO is used as a solvent. It will help disolve the ph into the solution. It also has some penetration properties.

IPP is used to lubricate the skin it softens it up so the skin can be penetrated easily by the ph(dries quicker and is not as oily feeling as the IPM).

IPM is used for the same reason as the IPP.
Keep in mind that you can use only either IPM or IPP but at a higher %. 15 + 15 = 30%....

OA this is a powerful penetration enhancer. It screws with the lipids in the skin to let the ph go through.

PG this stuff is oily. What it does is keeps the moisture from leaving the skin. The more moisture the easier it is for ther ph to penetrate. NO you can't just use water....

DMSO man i love this stuff. It is the most powerful penetration enhancer that is out there that is safe. This addition puts us over the top. This is a must in the solution. If you have sensitive skin this may irritate it but don't you want ot get bi. If it irritates too much go to 5% and add 5% to ISO.

If you don't like the smell of it then you could substitue 5% d-limenene for 5% of PG. BUT I liek to just put in 2ml of scented oil.
Go with the oil. Don't screw with the recipe......!!!!!!!!!
Other factors that help penetration....
1. Rub the ph on vigorously.. RUB HARD
2. MAX 8g ph in 240ml solution... The less ph in the more surface area the better penetration.
3. Try to wait until dry to put clothing on. Hoefully for you it is only 5 mins max
4. If you can remove hair where ph isa being applied. The ph can attach to the hair and thus not go into your skin. SHAVE IT OFF...

Well there you have it. If I have made any mistakes who cares there is the recipe. Have fun with it and GROW GROW GROW...

Talk to ya...

**Big Daddy Chemo** · 08-31-2002, 12:15 PM

Very good summary...

For myself, I prefer 25-30% IPM instead of the 15% IPP/15% IPM. It's just a personal preference since it eliminates an ingedient. The IPM/IPP is probably a little better though.

BIG BUMP on the DMSO...doesn't get any better than this PE in terms of absorption effectiveness!

I believe the total PH could go as high as 10 g but should not go any higher.

To all the bros that contributed...enjoy your recipe! It kicks ass...

Chemo

curt2go --> you went to war with the transdermal research...hope you stick around and help on a few other topics

You're truly an asset to this board.

**Dante B.** · 08-31-2002, 03:37 PM

Considering that the harsh hail of invectives rained upon Par for his 'mere theoretical gymnastics', I assume that either 'real world' proof for the 50% figure will be seen here, or at least theories will be debated now, and not the person (and their 'motives').

Not an attack, however it would be obscene for the same characters who played part in the other tragedy, to simply accept 50% (since Par's figure was stated to be a 'hope for the best' number).

Now perhaps, since theories are being offered and we have moved well past the 'we have real world evidence and you only have your theoretical gymnastics' line, a more proper debate of theories can be had, instead of vociferous calumny.

I am only making this statement, in light of the past (since 'mere' theory was heavily discounted).

**Matthew D** · 08-31-2002, 03:47 PM

Okay just wondering about how much a bottle would the new improve formula cost for say 1-Test?

**DcKalop** · 08-31-2002, 04:22 PM

Hey Curt and Chemo, good jobs guys! I hang mostly at FB but I've been watching the progression! Thanks Bros!

Peace.

PS) The 50% issue is something I look forward to seeing debated.

**Big Daddy Chemo** · 08-31-2002, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Matthew D
Okay just wondering about how much a bottle would the new improve formula cost for say 1-Test?

It would cost about $4 per 8 oz. to make. Buying the PH's to go in there is the expensive part...

Chemo

**Big Daddy Chemo** · 08-31-2002, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by dantebattista
Considering that the harsh hail of invectives rained upon Par for his 'mere theoretical gymnastics', I assume that either 'real world' proof for the 50% figure will be seen here, or at least theories will be debated now, and not the person (and their 'motives').

Not an attack, however it would be obscene for the same characters who played part in the other tragedy, to simply accept 50% (since Par's figure was stated to be a 'hope for the best' number).

Dante, neither curt2go or myself has claimed a 50% absorption for this homebrew recipe. That was the estimate of a transdermal specialist who had opportunity to offer perspective.

Here is the recipe that has taken homebrewing to the next level..
This is the recipe that the scientist that specializes in transdermals said was probably 50% absorption....

As for the characters you refer to I sincerely hope that colorful allusion was not directed at me. I have consistently defended the merits of Par's work and homebrews alike and have not participated in any "tragedy". On several occassions I have offered my opinion on absorption of Par's formula versus homebrew and his always placed a bit higher in terms of efficiency. With the inclusion of DMSO I will now have to revise that...

Chemo

**Dante B.** · 08-31-2002, 04:46 PM

Big Daddy Chemo,

No, my statement was in general (more so specific to whomever made the attack against 'mere theory'). Aside from when you spoke of the 'three demi-Gods colluding' (which you later recanted), you always comported yourself well. Such was not a statement against you, in particular.

As for the latter statement, just as for the fact that he is a scientist, I would assume that he should have a reasoning for his statement. The scientists who made Androderm, only claim a nominal delivery of 2.5 mgs (or 20.5 percent); my point being that a statement by a scientist is not proof--however it may be evidence (as not all scientists are equal; and two scientists may show their disagreement upon the same given issue).

Such was my mention. Not personal in that regard, only general against those (or whoever) discounted Par's 'theoretical gymnastiscs'. That was the tradegy that I spoke of, since his offerings (as per his article) were dismissed, in light of 'real-world' proof.

I hope that this clarifies my point of mention.

**Matthew D** · 08-31-2002, 05:30 PM

Thanks Chemo.. I appreciate the cost analysis...
Matt D

**Scorpio** · 08-31-2002, 09:18 PM

Curt, recipe looks good. And thanks Chemo, for all your input. You've really helped out many of the homebrewers on this board. Keep up the good work guys. I'll continue to follow/ learn from your threads.

**curt2go** · 08-31-2002, 10:03 PM

Hey dante Ihave now 'real world ' numbers ..There is now way that I can do testing like en vitro or something.. To tell you the truth I don't care if the number is 35% or 50%... We know it is good. Look at the reserch. DMSO puts us over the top and par's formula can never use it(if he wants to sell it legally). This product is cheap way better than he original recipe and people will get good results. I garuntee it. As far a s the scientist I just asked what he thought what the absorption would be... Thats what he said. There is no way I can back up his claim. Honestly I don't have to who cares....People will use this and over the next 2 months you WILL see the results....We have worked very hard at this recipe so please stop the indirectional bashing of it. Let people choose for themselves by seeing the results of others. We have never disregarded pars producy heck we have all used it. It works its good but its not as economical as this. And now with all the reserch figuers I think this recipe will get morer ph into the blood.

This is all just food for thought people I knew as soon as I put this thread out there people with other interests would come in saying where is the proof. Well we will see the proof soon.
Use it iff you want that's why we posted it. Have fun and lift hard ph's will never replace that...

PS. Dante now slam or flame intended man I just knew this was eventually comming....

Talk to ya...

**Dante B.** · 08-31-2002, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by curt2go
Dante no slam or flame intended man I just knew this was eventually comming....

None taken. I respect the work you put into such an endeavor, and such is not my issue. No issue with you, personally. The main posit of my post was in regards to statements (none of which came from any members upon this thread), that Par only had his 'mere theories' (going so far to say [in essence] that he was pulling numbers out of the air); I would simply regard it as the turn of Judas, if this person (or these persons) just "accepted" the 50% number after hurling hell at Par (one may gather as to whom I am speaking of, who was quite vociferous in this regard of my mention).

No one on this thread, is the offender toward which my afore mentioned statement(s) were made.

One can assume me of bias, and so it is, to them. The previous 'debates' still rankle in my mind, given the light within which Par was basked with certain accusations (making numbers up; having no evidence, and no real-world proof. The issue would be not that this would not work, but rather, does it work in the context of the 50% figure. However, that is another issue).

Simply, I regard it as base for whomever slandered Par on such grounds [and again, no one upon this thread thus far, did so] to come now to accept theory---since they made the posit of their accusations on the grounds of real-world proof (and that ground is contextual---this will work---comparing 200 mgs of 1-Test via this formula to 200 mgs of 1-Test via ONE, is the context within which I speak).

If something works, that is not proof of a figure, unless it is compared to something else; such is my mention. I hope that this makes my point more clear.

**John Benz** · 09-01-2002, 08:35 AM

Curt,

We all owe you a big debt of gratitute, and Big Daddy Chemo as well. I work with DMSO, and I know just how effective even a few drops added to a formula can be. Nothing else comes close to the cell penetration offered by DMSO. So thanks guys. And don't let let any long-winded detractors bother you; there's always one in the crowd.

**curt2go** · 09-01-2002, 12:01 PM

Dante you are full of knowledge and not your average Joe off the street. I value your opinion well. I know exactly what you are saying that if PAr came out with his 20% and people asked for proof it is a very hard thing to prove.. I can not prove this formula either all you can go on is research and educated guesses(some by scientists) to come up with a number that is resonable....

I am sure that we can come up with a real world test for both par's formula against ours. However this will be hard to set up. One thing is their is allot of feedback one one and one+.. IT WORKS hands down and ther is some feedback from the old and less ineffective homebrew.

If we can find some willing test subjects who will do everything according to the standards that par and our group set up..Like diet trainging and dosage,length. I am sure we can foot the bill for the formula for the homebrew and 1-test in our homebrew. And par will have to do the same..(one bottle from par is not much out of his pocket) This way we can both have some hard numbers as well as a good comparison...

So I ask PAR and DANTE if you would like to do this....It is up to you guys.Now lets get down to business...

Pm me if you guys wnat to try to set something up..... Talk to ya..

**minus** · 09-01-2002, 02:09 PM

Great info thanks people.. however 1 little detail seems to have been overlooked.....

uuuhhhhh......

WHERE DO I GET THESE PRODUCTS TO MAKE EM'?-lol-
Big Daddy Chemo made a great list on his spreadsheet, however I think an update is at hand...

**Big Daddy Chemo** · 09-01-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by minus
Great info thanks people.. however 1 little detail seems to have been overlooked.....

uuuhhhhh......

WHERE DO I GET THESE PRODUCTS TO MAKE EM'?-lol-
Big Daddy Chemo made a great list on his spreadsheet, however I think an update is at hand...

The only thing Melissa (www.lemelange.com) doesn't have at the moment is IPP. She will have DMSO in directly...both 99% and 70% gel.

As for the powders, 1fast400 and kilosports are still playing ball.

Chemo

**minus** · 09-01-2002, 03:33 PM

ok Court helped me in finding the products... now this is my beef with this... After much calculation I came up ith this..

Hopefully THIS will help the less ambitious people who don�t plan on mass-producing this product� These are the prices for the cost of making 5 bottles of 6 grams of 1-test mixed with 10 grams of 4ad using the following formula�

40% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL (99%) OR ETHANOL(C1-C4 ALCOHOL)
30% IPM
10% OLEIC ACID
10% PROPYLENE GLYCOL
10% DMSO (99%)

Price for 5 bottles of 1-test/4-ad

Liquid Undiluted DMSO (99.9%) (4 oz.)
- 4 oz. $13.25 (will yield enough for 5 bottles with .0 oz. remaining)
Isopropyl Alcohol, 99 percent - 1 quart (32 oz.)
- 32 oz. $10.00 (will yield enough for 10 bottles with .0 oz. remaining)
Isopropyl Myristate (IPM) (perfume and fragrance diluent) 16 oz.
- 16 oz. $10.50 (will yield enough for 6 bottles with 1.67 oz. remaining)
Oleic Acid - 16 oz.
- 16 oz. $10.00 (will yield enough for 20 bottles with .0 oz. remaining)
Propylene Glycol - 16 oz.
- 16 oz. $8.50 (will yield enough for 20 bottles with .0 oz. remaining)

* **TOTAL PRICE: $52.25

PRICES FOR THE 1-TEST and 4-AD

1-TEST Powder $4.50 per gram (X 6 grams) (X 5 bottles) = $135.00
- 30 grams $135.00 (will yield enough for 5 bottles with .0 grams. remaining)
4-AD Powder $.90 per gram (X 10 grams) (X 5 bottles) = $45.00
- 50 grams $45.00 (will yield enough for 5 bottles with .0 grams. remaining)

*TOTAL PRICE INGREDIENTS PLUS FORMULA: $ 232.25

TOTAL PRICE PER BOTTLE: $46.45

* This is without including shipping & handling and/or any bottles that may need to be bought or spray nozzles, measuring devices ect�
** Some products not sold/or found at lower quantity�

Now at 46.45 without *, how does this bennefit me as a homebrewer when you can get one+ at 40-50 bucks in bb.com and super one+ at $75? Would anyone care to touch upon this point... Maybe I am looking in the wrong places...

BTW.. I will post this in another thread in hope of more input...

**Big Daddy Chemo** · 09-01-2002, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by minus
Now at 46.45 without *, how does this bennefit me as a homebrewer when you can get one+ at 40-50 bucks in bb.com and super one+ at $75? Would anyone care to touch upon this point... Maybe I am looking in the wrong places...

BTW.. I will post this in another thread in hope of more input...

You have good data but the interpretation is a bit off. The limiting reagents in this case are the DMSO and OA. Double the quantities of theses chems so that the MINUMUM bottles able to be produced is 10. This brings the TOTAL investment to $256. The math says you can make 10 bottles at $25.60 each. This price should be compared to Super One+ since it has the same amount of 1-test and 4-AD. $77 versus $25.60...1/3rd the price.

It is significant overhead if you are brewing for yourself. I HIGHLY recommend homebrewing for individuals that are confident that more than 1 bottle will be used in the future. For those that have never tried a 1-test product it would be advantageous to purchase a bottle of commercial product. Get a bro or two together and go in on the chems to bring the price down to a workable level.

Let's say that you and a friend wanted to do 8 weeks worth of 1-test transdermal (whether it be 2 on / 2 off, 4 weeks , or 8 weeks straight through). This would be $154 each for Super One+ (2 bottles each). For $128 each you could 20 weeks worth (5 bottles each).

Chemo

**minus** · 09-01-2002, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Big Daddy Chemo

You have good data but the interpretation is a bit off. The limiting reagents in this case are the DMSO and OA. Double the quantities of theses chems so that the MINUMUM bottles able to be produced is 10. This brings the TOTAL investment to $256. The math says you can make 10 bottles at $25.60 each. This price should be compared to Super One+ since it has the same amount of 1-test and 4-AD. $77 versus $25.60...1/3rd the price.

Chemo maybe i should not have poste this twice, but now I don't know which one you will read

so here it is, as posted on the other thread..

Chemo (and with all the respect in the world you deserve) I find this data is incorrect... since you are only adding the price of extra DMSO and OA... the original price for the 1test and 4ad doubles as well with the 10 bottles... from $180.00 to $360...
add the price of the rest of the ingredients roughly $60 dollars and you get 420.. this is $42.00 /per bottle once again without the extra 10-20 dollars you pay from S+H since these ingredients are from 3 different sites...

I do understand the concept, and paying 2/3 the price will always beat paying the whole thing... However this still shows something needs to happen to this homebrew formula in order to be more cost effective... ALL IM SAYING IS, WE NEED TO WORK HARDER... A solution needs to be found

Minus

**minus** · 09-01-2002, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Big Daddy Chemo

The only thing Melissa (www.lemelange.com) doesn't have at the moment is IPP. She will have DMSO in directly...both 99% and 70% gel.

As for the powders, 1fast400 and kilosports are still playing ball.

Chemo

DID not see this before,than you Chemo and Curt2go

**Big Daddy Chemo** · 09-01-2002, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by minus
Chemo maybe i should not have poste this twice, but now I don't know which one you will read

so here it is, as posted on the other thread..

Chemo (and with all the respect in the world you deserve) I find this data is incorrect... since you are only adding the price of extra DMSO and OA... the original price for the 1test and 4ad doubles as well with the 10 bottles... from $180.00 to $360...
add the price of the rest of the ingredients roughly $60 dollars and you get 420.. this is $42.00 /per bottle once again without the extra 10-20 dollars you pay from S+H since these ingredients are from 3 different sites...

I do understand the concept, and paying 2/3 the price will always beat paying the whole thing... However this still shows something needs to happen to this homebrew formula in order to be more cost effective... ALL IM SAYING IS, WE NEED TO WORK HARDER... A solution needs to be found

Minus

You got me...I forgot to double the price of PH's as well. As you can see, a bottle of transdermal gel will cost ~$6 to make and the expensive part is the PH's. Let me crank through the math one more time...this time I'll do more than add in my head!

I agree that a solution needs to be found...not by working harder but by finding a CHEAPER SOURCE FOR 1-TEST!

Chemo

**minus** · 09-01-2002, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Big Daddy Chemo

I agree that a solution needs to be found...not by working harder but by finding a CHEAPER SOURCE FOR 1-TEST!

Chemo

And so the search begins........

(In best Dr. Evil laugh ) MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAA MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA..

sorry I have a tendensy to act stupid when Im exited..

**drfly** · 09-01-2002, 06:28 PM

hi, ive been following threads on homebrews for a while now, and i think ive got a pretty good handle on things. id like to start off by thanking everyone who has put time in to make this possible. anyways, what i was trying to find out is if u can use other PH's in homebrews, nor-diol specifically. i dont know if anyone has tried this, or asked or anything, but i just figured i would. thanks, later

**curt2go** · 09-01-2002, 06:31 PM

Whats all the excitement about....

Just jidding!!!! Man good thing chemo is on my side.... Thanx chemo..

**curt2go** · 09-01-2002, 07:02 PM

hey I don't understand why everyone does not just go to the local pharmacy and ask them to order this stuff for you. It is not illegal to buy them. Only the dmso you will have to get off the net....

These are my numbers in canada....

ISO.. I get free but if I didn't 2.50/500ml
IPP.. $22.00/500ml
IPM.. $37.00/500ml
OA... $26.00/200ml
PG...$9.00/250ml
DMSO...$27.00/240ml

per bottle
ISO 40% $0.48
IPP 15% $1.58
IPM 15% $2.66
OA 10% $3.12
PG 10% $0.87
DMSO 10% $2.70
SPRAY BOTTLE 1 $2.88 *******DON'T FORGET*******

TOTAL $14.29
THATS ABOUT $9.00 USD

But thats just me.... Talk to ya...

One thing minus is please don't ask us to work harder you have no idea how much work went into this...Not a flame but the numbers are good for homebrewing....PLus remember the potential absorption difference now in this new formula....

**meltedMnM** · 09-01-2002, 07:02 PM

maybe some one who's willing to, can sell the solution for a reasobable price so that people not wanting to make many batches can buy what they need and not have to spend so much.
just a thought...

**BigBenn** · 09-01-2002, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by meltedMnM
maybe some one who's willing to, can sell the solution for a reasobable price so that people not wanting to make many batches can buy what they need and not have to spend so much.
just a thought...

I would be willing to do it... After this, my 1-test business has went totally local.

**minus** · 09-01-2002, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by curt2go

TOTAL $14.29
THATS ABOUT $9.00 USD

But thats just me.... Talk to ya...

One thing minus is please don't ask us to work harder you have no idea how much work went into this...Not a flame but the numbers are good for homebrewing....PLus remember the potential absorption difference now in this new formula....

you are missing the point, add the price of 1-test and 4ad per bottle with your 9 bucks and its about 55 dollars a bottle to make...
I will not take it as flame so do not worry, and i know there was an inmense amount of work put into this, my debate was simply with the difference between 55 dollars a bottle to homebrew 10 bottles to 77 with buying one..
like big daddy said its all about finding the 1-test cheaper, dude i am not knocking your work by any means really,
look:::: thumbs up, great ect...
I did not ask YOU to work harder, I simply stated the current situation and said lets move forward with this... or do you want this to end here?
Anyway like you said, this will not be a fight thread, its just my opinion, I respect the time and effort you have put into this, and I respect your overall contribution to this site...

peace
minus

**Big Daddy Chemo** · 09-01-2002, 10:15 PM

Tremendous work has gone into perfecting the homebrew recipe and now the weakest link is the PH powder prices. curt2go specializes in research and I get my kicks by establishing commercial contacts. I'll try to find a cheaper source for 1-test and 4-AD that is of good quality. When I do rest assured I will post it somewhere...

Chemo

**K (same)** · 09-01-2002, 10:36 PM

BTW, Curt is paying about 2X what you would get thru Melissa.

Total price per bottle comes to around $42.50 based on my calculation.

BTW, GREAT JOB, Chemo and Curt!!!!!!

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