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  1. #31
    Registered User coldfusion71's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bxbombers View Post
    you said there have been zero documented cases of anyone having organ failure or dying from the use of steroids. so why not take a ****load of them? o wait, so that WILL cause problems?

    which is it? so what you mean to say is yes they can cause damage if used in unsafe doses. if thats the case then you need to admit they are dangerous.
    Well your point may be well intentioned, but it is completely illogical. If you over consume anything from, food to alcohol to cigarettes to aspirin, it will lead to dire consequences. So citing that as a point it intellectually dishonest on your part.
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  2. #32
    Fist pumpin' and GTL ronnie0072's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BMIO View Post
    Anyone going to see him at ANC in Everett MA this SAt?

    i want to but i have to work on sat. i lift at 365 in everett near the harley dealership
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  3. #33
    Banned Poofy Nesbit's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rschuh View Post
    I recently saw a posting from this anonymous clown that stated that Flex Wheeler's kidney failure was caused by anabolic steroid abuse. Why do ill informed morons make comments like this? Did Alonzo Mourning and Sean Elliot also have FSGS from abusing anabolic steroids? No! It is ONLY the "word" of these dolt who won't even post his name. I also had FSGS and according to the best kidney specialists in the US, FSGS can NOT be caused by the use or "abuse" of anabolic steroids. BTW, Dan Duchaine's renal failure was a congenital condition. Dan was a good friend or mine. I post my real name. Robert Schuh.

    Rob Schuh

    rschuh@yahoo.com
    Flex claimed it was the juice.
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  4. #34
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    "Treatments involving steroids or other immunosuppressive drugs appear to help some patients by decreasing proteinuria and improving kidney function."

    Uhm..read that quote.

    http://www.nephcure.org/Info_aboutfsgs.html

    *sigh*

    I think this works because if you have steroids in your system, the steroids will soak up more protein, therefore decreasing the amount in your piss.

    I could be wrong. Correct me if I am.
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  5. #35
    Registered User John Doe X's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=rschuh;89261823][QUOTE=John Doe


    I see why you want to hide your name. You have no facts nor do you know anything about this topic, so you just spout crap. Good luck with your life as a lemming.[/QUOTE]


    "I see why you want to hide your name. You have no facts nor do you know anything about this topic, so you just spout crap. Good luck with your life as a lemming"

    TRANSLATION =





    Despite your presumptuous and pontificating demeanour, there is an element of truth in that my intelligence vis-a-vis steroids is limited. You will have to elucidate the nexus between the proposition propound by yourself and the supposed engendered consequence, how does asserting your real name correlate to actual intelligence and knowledge on the issue? You were presumptuous enough to dismiss my 'unintelligence' on account of my pseudonym and my silence. I would be predisposed to defer judgment on the issue to the medical profession, this is not to say that the medical profession is omni-competent, nor omniscient, but I would be inclined to believe their assertions over 'rschuh' ?... But whatever, I will never take steroids, therefore they will not have a potential adverse effect on me, so it is irrelevant to me.

    'I still want to know why so many people want to demonize anabolic steroids. Seeing that there have been ZERO documented cases of end organ failure from them and that no one had died from using them? (quote).

    To say that there is no direct/indirect casual connection is ludicrous, steroid abuse can create an environment that either engenders complications or precipitate existing complications, obviously a minimal dosage will lack potentially fatal consequences, but vast amounts over a long period of time?

    Coldfusion was correct, excessive consumption on anything can have a detrimental impact, but this does not disguise the fact that excessive consumption of steroids is damaging, the former (excessive consumption across a broad range of products is detrimental) does not negate the presence of the latter (the specific instance of excessive steroid use is detrimental), which counterclaims Rschu assertion that ?there have been ZERO documented cases of end organ failure from them and that no one had died from using them.?

    On what basis am I a lemming? Simply because I have limited knowledge on steroids (not out of diminished intellectual capacity but a will of ignorance given my rejection towards personal use/consumption, hence I possess no need for a pursuit of knowledge on the subject matter?) I wasn?t aware that steroid knowledge defined one?

    These are rhetorical questions, hence no need to reply

    Suggestion; a more amenable argument from yourself will be advanced by fostering a more dignified tone, as opposed to the following'..?anonymous ?..Why do ill informed morons make comments like this? ..It is ONLY the "word" of these dolt who won't even post his name'.
    Last edited by John Doe X; 10-23-2007 at 06:27 AM.
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  6. #36
    chronic deadlifter NaturaLPumP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by coldfusion71 View Post
    Well your point may be well intentioned, but it is completely illogical. If you over consume anything from, food to alcohol to cigarettes to aspirin, it will lead to dire consequences. So citing that as a point it intellectually dishonest on your part.
    This is the best post in the thread. Why cant people just see that AAS is good and bad. Use it smart or abuse and get fuked.
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  7. #37
    o0oOOo00oOoo0oOOo00o o0o0Ooo0o0Oo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NaturaLPumP View Post
    This is the best post in the thread. Why cant people just see that AAS is good and bad. Use it smart or abuse and get fuked.
    Agreed - If you look at the OP's post history you can see he's all about the drama. Nothing but criticizing people and starting arguments.
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  8. #38
    Gorilla Muscle KarateChris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by johnnyhabitat View Post
    "Treatments involving steroids or other immunosuppressive drugs appear to help some patients by decreasing proteinuria and improving kidney function."

    Uhm..read that quote.

    http://www.nephcure.org/Info_aboutfsgs.html

    *sigh*

    I think this works because if you have steroids in your system, the steroids will soak up more protein, therefore decreasing the amount in your piss.

    I could be wrong. Correct me if I am.
    Dude, they're talking about use of corticosteroids like prednisone, NOT anabolic steroids like testosterone. They do COMPLETELY different things.
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  9. #39
    Proud Dad 5x10's Avatar
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    IMO, roids will make genetic predispositions show themselves early
    heart disease, kidney diseases, balding, etc

    although they are just hormones, they rewire your body on how it will run
    i think a good comparison would be a chip that you put into a car to change how the engine is run(timing, fuel, etc)
    the engine wasnt designed to run like that and can have a detremental impact on the engine, although some might not have any negative impact at all

    if you take roids, you will roll the dice
    the question is, how many sides does the dice have?
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  10. #40
    Gorilla Muscle KarateChris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
    IMO, roids will make genetic predispositions show themselves early
    heart disease, kidney diseases, balding, etc

    although they are just hormones, they rewire your body on how it will run
    i think a good comparison would be a chip that you put into a car to change how the engine is run(timing, fuel, etc)
    the engine wasnt designed to run like that and can have a detremental impact on the engine, although some might not have any negative impact at all

    if you take roids, you will roll the dice
    the question is, how many sides does the dice have?
    This is true to a certain extent. Certainly, prostate issues will develop earlier on since the prostate has many androgen receptors. Anabolic steroids won't necessarily DIRECTLY influence heart disease or kidney disease, but steroids DO have a negative impact on your lipid profile and cholesterol which can lead to heart disease especially if you're genetically predisposed to it and they can raise blood pressure, causing hypertension which can lead to kidney failure.

    All of our endogenous hormones help maintain our body's homeostasis (which we're striving to maintain constantly). No one will be able to convince me that introducing large amounts of exogenous hormones into our bodies don't have negative effects on our body's processes.

    Of course I also think I should say, that I'm not against AS useage. But I do think people should understand the rules of the game before they play so to speak.
    Last edited by KarateChris; 10-23-2007 at 10:47 AM.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by KarateChris View Post
    Dude, they're talking about use of corticosteroids like prednisone, NOT anabolic steroids like testosterone. They do COMPLETELY different things.
    Sorry, I was wrong. I'm still learning.
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  12. #42
    Registered User JOHN GARGANI's Avatar
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    MR. SCHUH: with all respect, it sounds to me that you are trying to find justification for the path the you have chosen in life.....

    don't......you are what you are and you did what you did.....nobody here is judging you......


    Also: you can't see this, but you are a direct opposite extreme of the very same people that you are making fun of: the two extreme camps are this:


    1. steroids are evil, they are the cause of everything, sinful...bad...etc


    2. SHOW ME ONE DOCUMENTED CASE, JUST SHOW ME, BET YOU CAN'T!


    here is a tip from someone just a little older than you: LIFE IS RARELY ABOUT EXTREMES:

    more often, most of the time, the answer, if there is one, lies somewhere in the middle.


    that is why, when reading a thread like this, my hat has to go off to Karate Kid, because he is both intelligent AND fair minded and he does not belong to either of the extreme camps.

    on the positive: Mr. Schuh: your avatar is just fabulous: a fantastic accomplishment of muscle balance and symmetry, I tip my hat to you.


    But, if anyone really reads my words or really gets an understanding of what I am trying to say, a lesson in life, most things are a compromise of sorts and things are rarely either far end of the spectrum.


    steroids are no exception to that rule: but remember, ignorance remains on BOTH sides of the spectrum: because as ignorant as the the first side is, knowing nothing about the biology or chemistry or whatever, equally "ignorant", in a relative sense, is the second side, because they read all the biology and chemistry but see it only through prejudiced eyes.
    Last edited by JOHN GARGANI; 10-24-2007 at 06:34 AM.
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  13. #43
    Registered User Dbol26's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI View Post
    MR. SCHUH: with all respect, it sounds to me that you are trying to find justification for the path the you have chosen in life.....

    don't......you are what you are and you did what you did.....nobody here is judging you......


    Also: you can't see this, but you are a direct opposite extreme of the very same people that you are making fun of: the two extreme camps are this:


    1. steroids are evil, they are the cause of everything, sinful...bad...etc


    2. SHOW ME ONE DOCUMENTED CASE, JUST SHOW ME, BET YOU CAN'T!


    here is a tip from someone just a little older than you: LIFE IS RARELY ABOUT EXTREMES:

    more often, most of the time, the answer, if there is one, lies somewhere in the middle.


    that is why, when reading a thread like this, my hat has to go off to Karate Kid, because he is both intelligent AND fair minded and he does not belong to either of the extreme camps.

    on the positive: Mr. Schuh: your avatar is just fabulous: a fantastic accomplishment of muscle balance and symmetry, I tip my hat to you.


    But, if anyone really reads my words or really gets an understanding of what I am trying to say, a lesson in life, most things are a compromise of sorts and things are rarely either far end of the spectrum.


    steroids are no exception to that rule: but remember, ignorance remains on BOTH sides of the spectrum: because as ignorant as the the first side is, knowing nothing about the biology or chemistry or whatever, equally "ignorant", in a relative sense, is the second side, because they read all the biology and chemistry but see it only through prejudiced eyes.

    x2, well put john
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  14. #44
    Registered User HomerJ.Simpson's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rschuh View Post
    I suggest that you look up FSGS and learn about the disease. High BP can NOR cause FSGS. Read what you are looking at the next time. Just spouting unrelated stats mean nothing. I've had some of the top nephrologists in the world work on my case and every one has agreed. Your assumption that Flex's BP had to be elevated is also flawed. Please get facts before making comments. How about a diagnosis in Duchaine too? He had Polycystic Kidney Disease and his BP was under control. Would you like to make a non factual diagnosis on him too?

    Rob Schuh
    PKD has varying degrees of how serious it is. im sure it didnt help that dan used himself as a guinea pig for a lot of the stuff he experimented with. i dont think people realize how much he really contributed to bodybuilding. people it seems try to blame him for the current state of bodybuilding, which is a bitpresumptuous. he opened the door to a lot of new ideas but many others have ran with what he started and taken it in there own direction. sad to lose a guy like that.
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by KarateChris View Post
    This is true to a certain extent. Certainly, prostate issues will develop earlier on since the prostate has many androgen receptors. Anabolic steroids won't necessarily DIRECTLY influence heart disease or kidney disease, but steroids DO have a negative impact on your lipid profile and cholesterol which can lead to heart disease especially if you're genetically predisposed to it and they can raise blood pressure, causing hypertension which can lead to kidney failure.

    All of our endogenous hormones help maintain our body's homeostasis (which we're striving to maintain constantly). No one will be able to convince me that introducing large amounts of exogenous hormones into our bodies don't have negative effects on our body's processes.

    Of course I also think I should say, that I'm not against AS useage. But I do think people should understand the rules of the game before they play so to speak.
    deca is actually used in patients experiencing kidney failure. obviously though the dose is not even in the same universe as what it would take to truly experience increased BP from steroid use alone. or a large increase in muscle mass as its usually at about the same amount of an HRT dose.
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  16. #46
    Gorilla Muscle KarateChris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HomerJ.Simpson View Post
    deca is actually used in patients experiencing kidney failure. obviously though the dose is not even in the same universe as what it would take to truly experience increased BP from steroid use alone. or a large increase in muscle mass as its usually at about the same amount of an HRT dose.
    Did not know that. What's the reason for using Deca?
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  17. #47
    War against genetics chan_ho_nam's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bxbombers View Post
    you said there have been zero documented cases of anyone having organ failure or dying from the use of steroids. so why not take a ****load of them? o wait, so that WILL cause problems?

    which is it? so what you mean to say is yes they can cause damage if used in unsafe doses. if thats the case then you need to admit they are dangerous.
    Would you say drinking water is dangerous? Because it can be if taken too much of. Same thing with anything in life, exceed a certain limit and it becomes dangerous.
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  18. #48
    Registered User rschuh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Poofy Nesbit View Post
    Flex claimed it was the juice.

    I have to disagree with you. I've talked to Flex on the phone and exchanged numerous e mails with him. I think that he stated early on that he thought his steroid use could have aggravated the disease, but after he learned more, he changed his mind. This is not really for debate. FSGS is not caused by Anabolic steroid use and or abuse. It is completely idiopathic and it is increasing in frequency in late 20s to early 30s athletic black males. There have been 2 guys in the NBA and one in MLB that have had FSGS along with many others whom no one has heard of. The only real causative behavioral issue related to FSGS is a high incidence in IV Heroin and Cocaine users. I don't think Flex was using either of them. :-)
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    Registered User rschuh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by coldfusion71 View Post
    Well your point may be well intentioned, but it is completely illogical. If you over consume anything from, food to alcohol to cigarettes to aspirin, it will lead to dire consequences. So citing that as a point it intellectually dishonest on your part.
    Do you mean that drinking too much alcohol is a problem? ;-)
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    [QUOTE=KarateChris;89812283]Did not know that. What's the reason for using Deca?[/QUOT


    i dont have the studies on hand but google "nandrolone decanoate and renal disease". as ive understood the studies its because deca is safe and has positive effects on LBM and nitrogen balance so it gives the patients more strength and nutritional benefit from the other therapies they receive. also for the treatment of ensuing anemia from the dysfunctional kidneys. again though the dosage is very low comparativly.
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    damn your BIG!!!
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    Flex Sais It Was Gear!!!!!

    You might want to tell that to Flex Wheeler, cause even HE seems to think it was the gear! He's flat out said it in articles. He even pointed out the irony that he needed legally prescribed steroids to live after the transplant, which again, was caused by steroid abuse.

    By the way, I know absolutely nothing about bb roids (which ones do what and so on) But hows this for credentials regarding kidney transplants. 1 aunt, 4 uncles , my mother and my brother have ALL had transplants due to polysistic kidney disease.

    Only ****ing morons who listen to the other ****ing morons selling them the drugs, seem to think that roids don't lead to kidney problems. Hey, some ****ing moron with bacne , bitch tits, shrunken nuts and hair coming out of their forehead, who makes a living selling you illicit ,possibly stolen, or worse homemade ,drugs wouldn't lie to you. Right?

    Tell you what ,why don't we get a ****ing doctor on here ,and let's see what they say....My real name's Rob Pinard in case anyone's gonna use that to try and make me look bad.
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  23. #53
    B.S. Kinesiology CSCS Vipersg123's Avatar
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    wouldn't diuretics have something to do with it?
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    Originally Posted by hiramabiff100 View Post
    You might want to tell that to Flex Wheeler, cause even HE seems to think it was the gear! He's flat out said it in articles. He even pointed out the irony that he needed legally prescribed steroids to live after the transplant, which again, was caused by steroid abuse.

    By the way, I know absolutely nothing about bb roids (which ones do what and so on) But hows this for credentials regarding kidney transplants. 1 aunt, 4 uncles , my mother and my brother have ALL had transplants due to polysistic kidney disease.

    Only ****ing morons who listen to the other ****ing morons selling them the drugs, seem to think that roids don't lead to kidney problems. Hey, some ****ing moron with bacne , bitch tits, shrunken nuts and hair coming out of their forehead, who makes a living selling you illicit ,possibly stolen, or worse homemade ,drugs wouldn't lie to you. Right?

    Tell you what ,why don't we get a ****ing doctor on here ,and let's see what they say....My real name's Rob Pinard in case anyone's gonna use that to try and make me look bad.
    Hello? Doctor in training hehehe Yea I know I don't count.. I don't get any credit around the medical school either lol

    And just when you think you've got your MD, you become an intern and you're a bitch again hehehehe
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  25. #55
    War against genetics chan_ho_nam's Avatar
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    Really? Because I happen to have a copy of his biography in front of me, and he said clearly that it was a genetic disorder. In fact, his aunt had it as well.

    Btw, I've homebrewed my own gear in the past. If you knew wtf you were talking about, you'd understand that is really a simple and safe process when done with care.

    And FYI, your stereotyping of the typical steroid user lends no credibility to your intelligience or tolerance. How many IFBB pros are on massive amounts of gear? How many have as you say, bad acne, bitch tits or hair coming out of their forehead? Actually...amuse me...name just one.

    Originally Posted by hiramabiff100 View Post
    You might want to tell that to Flex Wheeler, cause even HE seems to think it was the gear! He's flat out said it in articles. He even pointed out the irony that he needed legally prescribed steroids to live after the transplant, which again, was caused by steroid abuse.

    By the way, I know absolutely nothing about bb roids (which ones do what and so on) But hows this for credentials regarding kidney transplants. 1 aunt, 4 uncles , my mother and my brother have ALL had transplants due to polysistic kidney disease.

    Only ****ing morons who listen to the other ****ing morons selling them the drugs, seem to think that roids don't lead to kidney problems. Hey, some ****ing moron with bacne , bitch tits, shrunken nuts and hair coming out of their forehead, who makes a living selling you illicit ,possibly stolen, or worse homemade ,drugs wouldn't lie to you. Right?

    Tell you what ,why don't we get a ****ing doctor on here ,and let's see what they say....My real name's Rob Pinard in case anyone's gonna use that to try and make me look bad.
    Last edited by chan_ho_nam; 10-26-2007 at 02:34 AM.
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  26. #56
    yo yo yo Flex500's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bxbombers View Post
    you said there have been zero documented cases of anyone having organ failure or dying from the use of steroids. so why not take a ****load of them? o wait, so that WILL cause problems?

    which is it? so what you mean to say is yes they can cause damage if used in unsafe doses. if thats the case then you need to admit they are dangerous.
    kind of flawed logic. ANYTHING is dangerous when abused. most people would argue one alcoholic beverage a day is not only 100% without a doubt safe but possibly healthy.

    Does that mean you should drink a case a day?

    Most people would argue eating a small fry from mcdonalds a few times a week is probably okay. Does that mean you should eat 22 big macs everyday. No?

    Your logic is flawed because EVERYTHING in the world is dangerous when you take to much.
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    Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    kind of flawed logic. ANYTHING is dangerous when abused. most people would argue one alcoholic beverage a day is not only 100% without a doubt safe but possibly healthy.

    Does that mean you should drink a case a day?

    Most people would argue eating a small fry from mcdonalds a few times a week is probably okay. Does that mean you should eat 22 big macs everyday. No?

    Your logic is flawed because EVERYTHING in the world is dangerous when you take to much.
    "so what you mean to say is yes they can cause damage if used in unsafe doses"

    How is that logic flawed? It seems to fully agree with yours.
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    Not neccessarily AAS but doping in general has had catastrophic outcomes in the past like the bikers who all droppped dead in the 80s when they were messing with their blood.

    When you change your bodys chemistry there is always a price to pay. What that price is and how it will affect you long term are difficult questions to answer but there is certainly something.
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  29. #59
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    Originally Posted by NaturaLPumP View Post
    This is the best post in the thread. Why cant people just see that AAS is good and bad. Use it smart or abuse and get fuked.
    That's just it, every pro bber ABUSES them. Have you ever seen the recommended dosages of these drugs?
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    Registered User adonis verdader's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by regerla View Post
    Not neccessarily AAS but doping in general has had catastrophic outcomes in the past like the bikers who all droppped dead in the 80s when they were messing with their blood.
    That was the early 90's. Look what cycling has implemented since. Now guys in the pro peleton have to notify the organizers where they're going to be on any given day. Rasmussen didn't do it in may and his own team took him off the TDF while he wore the yellow jersey. They aren't messing around anymore. They care too much about the sport. Less can be said of pro bbing.
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