Effexor, SAM-e, and St. Johns Wort

[jmil]

What's up bros, I gotta ask this question...I know a decent amount when it comes to nutritional supplements, but when it comes to stuff like this, I have no clue...I know you're not supposed to take St. Johns wort with an SSRI, but I was thinking of trying either that or SAM-e...Right now I'm on Effexor 150 mgs which is VENLAFAXINE HCl...Anyone know if these are safe compounds to take at the same time? Thanks guys

[Lonny]

What's up bros, I gotta ask this question...I know a decent amount when it comes to nutritional supplements, but when it comes to stuff like this, I have no clue...I know you're not supposed to take St. Johns wort with an SSRI, but I was thinking of trying either that or SAM-e...Right now I'm on Effexor 150 mgs which is VENLAFAXINE HCl...Anyone know if these are safe compounds to take at the same time? Thanks guys

Its probably not a good idea to take any supplemental anti-depressants while on clinical ones. Effexor isn't an SSRI, its an SNRI (if thats the correct term). Its doesn't just work on serotonin, its also for Norepinephrine.

Prescription drugs should be the last thing. Did you try psychotherapy at all before getting this script?

A better thing would've been to try a few different supplements, one at a time before getting the effexor. Start with Fish Oil, you'd be amazed at what it will do for your overall feelings of well being. It should probably already be a staple of your supplements. If that alone isn't doing too much, you should've tried adding the St Johns Wort. Im sure you know all the studies behind it being as effective as most prescription anti-D's. Sam-E is really expensive from what i hear and would be a last ditch supplemental effort. After 6-8 weeks of St Johns use and no effects, you could try it.

Other possibilities are 5-HTP, and or L-tyrosine or L-Phenylalanine. 5 is a precursor for serotonin while Tyrosine and Phenylalanine are precursors for dopamine and norepinephrine.

Alcar also is great for mood and well being, as is ALA in some form for most people.

but if your depression is severe then your best bet may be the effexor. Still add the Fish Oil though.

What was it prescribed for? Anxiety? Depression? Apathy/Depression?

[jmil]

What's up Lonny, thanks for the post...yea I do already take fish oil. The effexor was for anxiety.

[Lonny]

What's up Lonny, thanks for the post...yea I do already take fish oil. The effexor was for anxiety.

Did the Dr start you off at 150 mgs? Is it the time released (XR) version?

If you have any other questions on it, feel free to ask or pm me.

[Skigazzi]

Id recommend using Rhodiola and Bacopa, 400 mg each, twice a day. You can bulk it in bulk cheap and cap it yourself. It did great things for me.

I didnt like 5htp , I thought St johns worked, but was a bid sporadic. Bacopa is nice stuff.

And definitely add Fish Oil.

[sardis3207]

I was on lexapro/celexa once(not at the same time), which are SSRIs, and I accidently took a whole st johns wort pill, nothing really happened. You could try taking a small dose, see how you feel, then up it a little, and get to a comfortable level.

[jmil]

Thanks for the replies guys, it's helpful...Lonny, I started at 75mg's of the (XR) time released version, and now I am up to 150mg's of it...I've been on it about 8 months...thanks again

[brumbartcheto]

I know you're not supposed to take St. Johns wort with an SSRI, but I was thinking of trying either that or SAM-e...Right now I'm on Effexor 150 mgs which is VENLAFAXINE HCl...Anyone know if these are safe compounds to take at the same time?

Effexor XR (it is indeed SNRI - serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) does not interact significantly with many other medications (exception: some anti-ulcer drugs).Taking Effexor XR with anything else that supposedly helps depression, anxiety etc., is however a different story … It definitely should not be taken at the same time as the MAOIs.

You are totally corrects about St. John's wort: How it works is not entirely clear, but it is believed to be similar to how SSRIs work. Therefore, it should not be used with MAOIs for sure. I am quite confident though, that using St. John's wort with SSRIs can lead to exacerbation of side effects as well. Well, not particularly lethal effect … but I still wouldn’t do it …

As to SAMe: same as above. As much as I know, even if you wish to switch from an SSRI to St. John's Wort, or SAMe you may need to wait a few weeks for the SSRI to wash out of your system before it is safe to start taking the herb….

To my knowledge, Wyeth is about to submit some changes in Effexor's label this year, I don’t know what exactly are they, though.

[jmil]

Hey, thanks a lot for the info bro...I really appreciate it. I guess that takes care of that, lol...I'm not going to take anything. Once again, all the posts were appreciated. Take care all.

[Peter LeDrew]

Its probably not a good idea to take any supplemental anti-depressants while on clinical ones. Effexor isn't an SSRI, its an SNRI (if thats the correct term). Its doesn't just work on serotonin, its also for Norepinephrine.

Prescription drugs should be the last thing. Did you try psychotherapy at all before getting this script?

A better thing would've been to try a few different supplements, one at a time before getting the effexor. Start with Fish Oil, you'd be amazed at what it will do for your overall feelings of well being. It should probably already be a staple of your supplements. If that alone isn't doing too much, you should've tried adding the St Johns Wort. Im sure you know all the studies behind it being as effective as most prescription anti-D's. Sam-E is really expensive from what i hear and would be a last ditch supplemental effort. After 6-8 weeks of St Johns use and no effects, you could try it.

Other possibilities are 5-HTP, and or L-tyrosine or L-Phenylalanine. 5 is a precursor for serotonin while Tyrosine and Phenylalanine are precursors for dopamine and norepinephrine.

Alcar also is great for mood and well being, as is ALA in some form for most people.

but if your depression is severe then your best bet may be the effexor. Still add the Fish Oil though.

What was it prescribed for? Anxiety? Depression? Apathy/Depression?

Good post Lonny. You know your stuff!
Depression and anxiety are two very similar conditions and diet and supplementation can do wonders for both.

If you're sticking with the effexor then avoid the St. John's wort and SAMe like others mentioned already.

You can add B-vitamins, esp. Folic acid 400mcg-1mg, B12 and B6 and a B- complex because studies have shown they improve the benefits of anti-depressants and may lessen sides also when used concomittantly.

Fish oil with EPA/DHA is crucial for this disease. Take at least 3-4g day. You don't need to buy the most expensive brand as consumers report did a study that showed all products met label claims and were free of contaminants.
Some research points to pure EPA as the best for depression.
http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?pro...&exec_sum=summ


I highly recommend getting used to drinking green or white tea everyday at least 3-4 cups/day and especially when stressed or anxious.
L-theanine is an amazing amino acid that is rarely found in foods, but is high in green and white tea and it has shown to be awesome for anxiety, by raising levels of neurotransmitters and increasing levels of theta waves in the brain similar to what people experience when they meditate.
It may also improve focus and concentration and cognition by reducing the effect of cortisol and stress.
I love tea and it is my addiction with an endless list of benefits to athletes and non-athelets alike... as a supplement L-theanine can taken in 100-300mg doses when stressed... www.aor.ca they have the best dosed L-theanine available at 220mg called Zen Theanine.
I used to work as a sports reporter and often faced stress dealing with the editor, deadlines, etc... thanks to my tea I coped.

High doses of Inositol benefits anxiety, depression and OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). AOR also has an inositol powder that needs to be taken in doses of 5-20g/day for benefits. It's pretty safe also.
http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?pro...&exec_sum=summ

SAMe is awesome for depression... It has to be a quality product though because many SAMe products are bogus as testing has discovered... it is very unstable and like R-lipoic acid it has two isomers. AOR just happens to recently made available a new potent and stable SAMe 400mg per tablet with a minimum 70% biologically active (S), S-diateroisomer. Believe me, AOR does not mess with potency or quality. BB.com and other sites should include the AOR line in MHO. Ask them to.
Studies continue to show SAMe to be safer and have a similar benefit as harsher drugs.
SAMe is an incredible chemical with a whole host of benefits to the human body, many that are just now being discovered. It also helps repair chondrocytes (cartilage-forming cells) for athritis.
I notice SAMe after just one dose, it works that well and quickly!

St. John's Wort is another great option that should be considered before drugs.
It has consistently shown to be as effective or superior to drugs, while devoid of the many side effects of drugs.
It is also CHEAP!! You need to look for one standardized for not just 0.3% hypercin, but also 3-5% HYPERFORIN!!! That is often forgotten by even the so-called experts of the nutrition world... I won't go there now.
Hyperforin may in fact be the best indicator of the antidepressant/anti-anxiety effects of the herb.
I know www.vitacost.com sells there own cheap properly standardized product that I have personally used. The Swiss brand is what I have now and it wasn't expensive at all.

St. John's Wort is just a great general health enhancer as well, may help cognition and improve liver function and act as an antioxidant.
900mg/day is usually recommended. Watch for increased sensitivity to the sun as a side effect, possibly.

Hmmm what else?

Rhodiola and Bacopa can help some people as mentioned by another person here. AOR also sells good products of both.
BTW I am not employed by AOR, but I believe they are leaders in the anti-aging/disease prevention movement. I salute. lol

I had a few battles with depression over the years... maybe related to using accutane, but good luck proving that one.
I have tried many products noted above and they do really help once you find what works for you... I often think people who try St. John's Wort and don't benefit didn't use the proper Hyperforin content.

Simple B-vitamins and Fish oil can do wonders over time. With nutrition it can take 6 months before healthier cells replace the older ones and then the effects truely shine.
I like fish oil 4g, St. John's Wort, SAMe, B-vitamins http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?prod_id=267 ,Tea (L-theanine), Ortho Mind by AOR (Bacopa, ALC, R-ALA, Ginkgo, Vinpocetine, CDP-Choline, etc..), Ortho Core or Essential Mix multi by AOR (The best hands down) I would not use any other unbalanced, poorly researched multi, anthocyandins found in bilberry and grapeskin http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?prod_id=116

BTW AOR products can be bought at www.relentlessimprovement.com, as well as Life Extension brand. The two best in MHO.
I have no ties to that site.
www.lef.org is also a great place to research disease prevention and treatment... they have an awesome book that goes from A-Z fully detailed treatments and protocols... you can access studies, treatments and read the entire monthly issue of their awesome magazine at that website.
Wonderful! They have great products as well, but I favor AOR slightly, esp. their Ortho Core multi.

Hopefully I have helped you and others here with such concerns.
Any questions, I'm here once in awhile.

take care,

Pete

[Peter LeDrew]

I just looked for a St. John's Wort product from bb.com that was standardized for Hyperfoin so I could recommend it, but could not find one.
This is quite common though and hopefully more brands will incorporate the newer research.
Not a big deal... bb.com is a terrific site.

Pete

[jmil]

Good post Lonny. You know your stuff!
Depression and anxiety are two very similar conditions and diet and supplementation can do wonders for both.

If you're sticking with the effexor then avoid the St. John's wort and SAMe like others mentioned already.

You can add B-vitamins, esp. Folic acid 400mcg-1mg, B12 and B6 and a B- complex because studies have shown they improve the benefits of anti-depressants and may lessen sides also when used concomittantly.

Fish oil with EPA/DHA is crucial for this disease. Take at least 3-4g day. You don't need to buy the most expensive brand as consumers report did a study that showed all products met label claims and were free of contaminants.
Some research points to pure EPA as the best for depression.
http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?pro...&exec_sum=summ


I highly recommend getting used to drinking green or white tea everyday at least 3-4 cups/day and especially when stressed or anxious.
L-theanine is an amazing amino acid that is rarely found in foods, but is high in green and white tea and it has shown to be awesome for anxiety, by raising levels of neurotransmitters and increasing levels of theta waves in the brain similar to what people experience when they meditate.
It may also improve focus and concentration and cognition by reducing the effect of cortisol and stress.
I love tea and it is my addiction with an endless list of benefits to athletes and non-athelets alike... as a supplement L-theanine can taken in 100-300mg doses when stressed... www.aor.ca they have the best dosed L-theanine available at 220mg called Zen Theanine.
I used to work as a sports reporter and often faced stress dealing with the editor, deadlines, etc... thanks to my tea I coped.

High doses of Inositol benefits anxiety, depression and OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). AOR also has an inositol powder that needs to be taken in doses of 5-20g/day for benefits. It's pretty safe also.
http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?pro...&exec_sum=summ

SAMe is awesome for depression... It has to be a quality product though because many SAMe products are bogus as testing has discovered... it is very unstable and like R-lipoic acid it has two isomers. AOR just happens to recently made available a new potent and stable SAMe 400mg per tablet with a minimum 70% biologically active (S), S-diateroisomer. Believe me, AOR does not mess with potency or quality. BB.com and other sites should include the AOR line in MHO. Ask them to.
Studies continue to show SAMe to be safer and have a similar benefit as harsher drugs.
SAMe is an incredible chemical with a whole host of benefits to the human body, many that are just now being discovered. It also helps repair chondrocytes (cartilage-forming cells) for athritis.
I notice SAMe after just one dose, it works that well and quickly!

St. John's Wort is another great option that should be considered before drugs.
It has consistently shown to be as effective or superior to drugs, while devoid of the many side effects of drugs.
It is also CHEAP!! You need to look for one standardized for not just 0.3% hypercin, but also 3-5% HYPERFORIN!!! That is often forgotten by even the so-called experts of the nutrition world... I won't go there now.
Hyperforin may in fact be the best indicator of the antidepressant/anti-anxiety effects of the herb.
I know www.vitacost.com sells there own cheap properly standardized product that I have personally used. The Swiss brand is what I have now and it wasn't expensive at all.

St. John's Wort is just a great general health enhancer as well, may help cognition and improve liver function and act as an antioxidant.
900mg/day is usually recommended. Watch for increased sensitivity to the sun as a side effect, possibly.

Hmmm what else?

Rhodiola and Bacopa can help some people as mentioned by another person here. AOR also sells good products of both.
BTW I am not employed by AOR, but I believe they are leaders in the anti-aging/disease prevention movement. I salute. lol

I had a few battles with depression over the years... maybe related to using accutane, but good luck proving that one.
I have tried many products noted above and they do really help once you find what works for you... I often think people who try St. John's Wort and don't benefit didn't use the proper Hyperforin content.

Simple B-vitamins and Fish oil can do wonders over time. With nutrition it can take 6 months before healthier cells replace the older ones and then the effects truely shine.
I like fish oil 4g, St. John's Wort, SAMe, B-vitamins http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?prod_id=267 ,Tea (L-theanine), Ortho Mind by AOR (Bacopa, ALC, R-ALA, Ginkgo, Vinpocetine, CDP-Choline, etc..), Ortho Core or Essential Mix multi by AOR (The best hands down) I would not use any other unbalanced, poorly researched multi, anthocyandins found in bilberry and grapeskin http://www.aor.ca/proddetail.asp?prod_id=116

BTW AOR products can be bought at www.relentlessimprovement.com, as well as Life Extension brand. The two best in MHO.
I have no ties to that site.
www.lef.org is also a great place to research disease prevention and treatment... they have an awesome book that goes from A-Z fully detailed treatments and protocols... you can access studies, treatments and read the entire monthly issue of their awesome magazine at that website.
Wonderful! They have great products as well, but I favor AOR slightly, esp. their Ortho Core multi.

Hopefully I have helped you and others here with such concerns.
Any questions, I'm here once in awhile.

take care,

Pete

Wow, I really appreciate you taking the time to write all that. I'm thinking that I may try going off my prescription, waiting a couple weeks, then trying what you recommended. That was some incredible information, and once again...I really appreciate you taking the time to jot it all down. Take care.

[Peter LeDrew]

Any questions in the future just PM me.
I didn't like meds, dry mouth, lethargy, etc... they were too potent for me for some reason.
I'm drinking my white peach tea right now by celestial seasonings... good stuff.
I had to learn how to help myself.
Keep reading such as the sites I suggested and do your own research... doctors can be good, but I believe we can learn more about the natural approaches on our own. It's amazing what we are beginning to learn and ironic that we're going back to finding remedies and medicine from plants and herbs like our ancestors were forced to do a long time ago.
Dr. Michael Colgan always talks about how we are tied to our environment and how nutrients and herbs, plants, etc... hold the keys to our locks.
Synthetic pharmaceuticals don't seem to work right with our bodies, they produce too many unpleasant side effects.
Herbs, nutrients cannot be patented or sold for huge dollars so that is the problem... the pharmaceutical industry is a mass money making machine ... a business. As in all business, profits often come before everything else. It's sad, but often the case.
The sooner people realize this the better.
I'm glad I could help you.

Pete