Antioxidants... Do they hinder our gains or not?

[Progressive8]

man im confused about all this, so should i treat anti-ox supplements like fish oil/EFA supplements and take them with breakfast and before bed insted of breakfast, pre and post workout? and also Any word on Alpha Lipoic Acid? it's an anti-oxident but also has other potential ergogenic aid characteristics if taken pre/postworkout, and im currently using NOW's ALA that has Vit C and E in it....also any word on all these anti-ox supplements affects on endogenous nitric oxide production?

[Outside backer]

Speaking of COX i thought this was interesting although it deals with wbuprofen


[Quote:= Ibuprofen works by inhibiting fatty acid cyclooxygenase (COX), the enzyme involved in the first step of prostaglandin synthesis. This results in relief from pain and inflammation.

Curious as to whether COX activity was truly necessary to induce growth in overloaded skeletal muscle, researchers decided to look at the leg muscles of adult rats.

Half the rats were then treated with ibuprofen, which (compared to the control group) inhibited hypertrophy by approximately fifty percent! If your legs are killing you after a squat session, fight that inflammation and soreness with not being a wuss, not ibuprofen. [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 May;38(5):840-6]


Effect of ibuprofen and acetaminophen on postexercise muscle protein synthesis
Given the mechanisms of action and the widespread use of ibuprofen and acetaminophen, we believed it was necessary to better understand the potential metabolic implications of consuming these over-the-counter drugs after eccentric resistance exercise. The primary findings of this study were that ibuprofen blunted the protein synthesis response that is normally seen after the type of exercise used in this study; surprisingly, acetaminophen also had a similar effect on protein metabolism.

From our data, it appears that the mechanism of blunting protein metabolism in skeletal muscle by cyclooxygenase inhibition outlined by Rodemann and Goldberg (30) nearly 20 yr ago in rats may also be intact in humans. These authors showed an inhibition of protein synthesis in isolated rat skeletal muscle with three different cyclooxygenase inhibitors (aspirin, indomethacin, and meclofenamate). In the current study, we hypothesized that ibuprofen would also block cyclooxygenase and have a similar effect on muscle protein metabolism. However, it is difficult to determine how the amount of inhibitors (drugs) used in the previous studies that showed this effect in isolated muscles (24, 25, 30, 34) compare with the levels in human muscle after consumption of maximal over-the-counter doses of ibuprofen. Nonetheless, from our data, it is clear that the 1.2 g/day maximal over-the-counter dose of ibuprofen is potent enough to blunt the protein synthesis response to resistance exercise.[/quote]

[NO HYPE]

Speaking of COX i thought this was interesting although it deals with wbuprofen


[Quote:= Ibuprofen works by inhibiting fatty acid cyclooxygenase (COX), the enzyme involved in the first step of prostaglandin synthesis. This results in relief from pain and inflammation.

Curious as to whether COX activity was truly necessary to induce growth in overloaded skeletal muscle, researchers decided to look at the leg muscles of adult rats.

Half the rats were then treated with ibuprofen, which (compared to the control group) inhibited hypertrophy by approximately fifty percent! If your legs are killing you after a squat session, fight that inflammation and soreness with not being a wuss, not ibuprofen. [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 May;38(5):840-6]


Effect of ibuprofen and acetaminophen on postexercise muscle protein synthesis
Given the mechanisms of action and the widespread use of ibuprofen and acetaminophen, we believed it was necessary to better understand the potential metabolic implications of consuming these over-the-counter drugs after eccentric resistance exercise. The primary findings of this study were that ibuprofen blunted the protein synthesis response that is normally seen after the type of exercise used in this study; surprisingly, acetaminophen also had a similar effect on protein metabolism.

From our data, it appears that the mechanism of blunting protein metabolism in skeletal muscle by cyclooxygenase inhibition outlined by Rodemann and Goldberg (30) nearly 20 yr ago in rats may also be intact in humans. These authors showed an inhibition of protein synthesis in isolated rat skeletal muscle with three different cyclooxygenase inhibitors (aspirin, indomethacin, and meclofenamate). In the current study, we hypothesized that ibuprofen would also block cyclooxygenase and have a similar effect on muscle protein metabolism. However, it is difficult to determine how the amount of inhibitors (drugs) used in the previous studies that showed this effect in isolated muscles (24, 25, 30, 34) compare with the levels in human muscle after consumption of maximal over-the-counter doses of ibuprofen. Nonetheless, from our data, it is clear that the 1.2 g/day maximal over-the-counter dose of ibuprofen is potent enough to blunt the protein synthesis response to resistance exercise.

Nice find.

It would have been ideal (for our sake) if they would have used something like EPA, curcumin, GSE, ect., to elicit COX inhibition instead of the ibuprofen.

[NO HYPE]

man im confused about all this, so should i treat anti-ox supplements like fish oil/EFA supplements and take them with breakfast and before bed insted of breakfast, pre and post workout?

Well what's more important to you.... taking in antioxidants prior to, and/or after a workout?

Or limiting PGF2a/PGE2 inhibition in an effort to maximize skeletal muscle growth (while simultaneously maximizing skeletal muscle contractile force)?

Any word on Alpha Lipoic Acid? it's an anti-oxident but also has other potential ergogenic aid characteristics if taken pre/postworkout, and im currently using NOW's ALA that has Vit C and E in it.

See my previous statement.... and try to evaluate what means more to you.

.

[NO HYPE]

any word on all these anti-ox supplements affects on endogenous nitric oxide production?

Well, we can't throw all supplemental antioxidants into one category and expect them to elicit identical responses on NO production, so there's no one answer.

I can tell you that some of the more common antioxidants such as NAC or vitamin C, definitely appear to be in enhanced NO production's favor.

[Bellero]

great great thread

[NO HYPE]

great great thread

Thanks.

[Progressive8]

ok so not to reduce this to it's simplest terms but, are u asking me whether it's more important to me to not be sick or to get maximal muscle growth? if that is what your asking then i guess it depends on how much muscle i would be missing out on, if it's a relitivly small amount, then i would rather not get sick hands down. Now i may have missinterprted your answer and im sorry if i did, alot of this is over my head, as well as counter intutuitve. Also, since the thread raised the issue that exogenous anti-oxidents(the ones in the studys at least) may actully decrease your body's own free radical fighting mechasisms, then the obvious answer would be to take no anti-oxidents around your workout, for both health AND muscle growth. So therefor there would be no decision to make, right?...of course there is so much that is speculative about this, plus the study with the multiple anti-ox supps showed decreased free radicals (or whatever the technichal terms are) compared to the placebo group who relied on their body's own mechnanisms. The problem is that dosent tell the whole story of the potential long term adaptation of the body's more superior anti-ox systems.*sigh* if only it were as simple as lift-eat-sleep-repeat lol

Well what's more important to you.... taking in antioxidants prior to, and/or after a workout?

Or limiting PGF2a/PGE2 inhibition in an effort to maximize skeletal muscle growth (while simultaneously maximizing skeletal muscle contractile force)?




See my previous statement.... and try to evaluate what means more to you.

.

[NO HYPE]

ok so not to reduce this to it's simplest terms but, are u asking me whether it's more important to me to not be sick or to get maximal muscle growth?

Let me put it this way.

If you don't take your antioxidants pre and/or post workout (but you still take them at some point during the day)....

What's more important to you.... taking in antioxidants prior to, and/or after a workout?

Or limiting PGF2a/PGE2 inhibition in an effort to maximize skeletal muscle growth (while simultaneously maximizing skeletal muscle contractile force)?

[dannov]

Or limiting PGF2a/PGE2 inhibition in an effort to maximize skeletal muscle growth (while simultaneously maximizing skeletal muscle contractile force)?

You seem to be quoting this with great confidence. If this is the case, then explain it in layman's terms for the other fella.

1) Define PGF2a/PGE2, it's role in the body, where it's found

2) Explain if inhibition of it is a bad or good thing--it appears on the surface to be a good
thing according to that quote since you're maximizing your gains

[SinewySam]

You seem to be quoting this with great confidence. If this is the case, then explain it in layman's terms for the other fella.

1) Define PGF2a/PGE2, it's role in the body, where it's found

2) Explain if inhibition of it is a bad or good thing--it appears on the surface to be a good
thing according to that quote since you're maximizing your gains

What NO HYPE means (and is putting in a somewhat confuzing way) is that you maximize muscle growth and force by LIMITING the inhibition of these enzymes PGF ect ect.

Basically its okay to take your antioxidants a long time (4 hours is what no hype himself has mentioned I believe) before or after you workout, so pre/post antioxidant is a no-no.

[NO HYPE]

What NO HYPE means (and is putting in a somewhat confuzing way) is that you maximize muscle growth and force by LIMITING the inhibition of these enzymes PGF ect ect.

Basically its okay to take your antioxidants a long time (4 hours is what no hype himself has mentioned I believe) before or after you workout, so pre/post antioxidant is a no-no.

Sorry if the proper terminology is a bit confusing.... but you pretty much nailed it brotha.

[NO HYPE]

Basically its okay to take your antioxidants a long time (4 hours is what no hype himself has mentioned I believe) before or after you workout, so pre/post antioxidant is a no-no.

When considering the ideal dosage-timing of various supplemental antioxidants pre-workout, in relation to their potential inhibitory effects on skeletal muscle growth and force production.... 3-4 hours is usually the amount of time that it takes for most of the water-soluble antioxidants to be excreted from the body.

Now in terms of post-workout dosage timing.... I would suggest prolonging administration for as long as possible, as proper skeletal muscle inflammation/repair obviously takes longer than 4-hours.

[EMISGOD]

man im confused about all this, so should i treat anti-ox supplements like fish oil/EFA supplements and take them with breakfast and before bed insted of breakfast, pre and post workout?

I take my latest cocktail (ALA+Co-Q10, DS Vigor, 500mg chewable Vit. C) right before bed every night...

[NO HYPE]

I take my latest cocktail (ALA+Co-Q10, DS Vigor, 500mg chewable Vit. C) right before bed every night...

While I have no references.... I strongly feel that one of the most ideal times for nutrient uptake is prior to sleep.

[Progressive8]

would morning work as well? some of these anti-oxidents also play a role in energy production and i dont want them to potentially keep me up, or disturb my sleep in any way(assuming that they might, i have no idea for sure)

I take my latest cocktail (ALA+Co-Q10, DS Vigor, 500mg chewable Vit. C) right before bed every night...

[RB12]

While I have no references.... I strongly feel that one of the most ideal times for nutrient uptake is prior to sleep.

plus this timing might conflict with workout programs; training in the evening and then going to bed a few hours later

[DRP7]

While I have no references.... I strongly feel that one of the most ideal times for nutrient uptake is prior to sleep.

there are HUGE differences with regards to the uptake of different nutrients. some things will have optimal uptake in the morning, others in the evening, some on empty stomach, some with meals.
chronobiological medicine is an extremely interesting new facet of science that could help to improve the action (and reduce adverse effects) of many drugs and nutrients.

[Gym God]

... things will have optimal uptake in the morning, others in the evening, some on empty stomach, some with meals.

In reference to morning and evening uptake of anti-oxidants would you be able to reference me any specifics. This would be good to know.

This is one of the best threads that I have come across in a while. Keep this thread alive guys.

[Blackjackcat]

I have been taking a scoop of Nimbus Nutrition's Poseidon(750mg Vit. C in it), with my BCAA's, for my workout drink. I may have to change that up a bit.

[dannov]

I have been taking a scoop of Nimbus Nutrition's Poseidon(750mg Vit. C in it), with my BCAA's, for my workout drink. I may have to change that up a bit.

I purchased some bulk electrolytes to take with my 25g of BCAAs and 10g of L-Glutamine as well--that'd be a solid addition.

[terracotta]

plus this timing might conflict with workout programs; training in the evening and then going to bed a few hours later

I always work out in the evenings, 2-4 hours prebed, so it would be nice to know if it is just as effective to take antioxidants in the mornings.

[terracotta]

Nice find.

It would have been ideal (for our sake) if they would have used something like EPA, curcumin, GSE, ect., to elicit COX inhibition instead of the ibuprofen.

Yeah, there are actually a few studies showing the detrimental effects of NSAIDS..

[Blackjackcat]

I purchased some bulk electrolytes to take with my 25g of BCAAs and 10g of L-Glutamine as well--that'd be a solid addition.

Thanks, I might have to go that route.

[EMISGOD]

would morning work as well? some of these anti-oxidents also play a role in energy production and i dont want them to potentially keep me up, or disturb my sleep in any way(assuming that they might, i have no idea for sure)

I have not been kept awake or had my sleep disturbed in any way by an element of my anti-ox cocktails, ever.

In fact, one sort of odd side effects is that now if I drink a bunch and try to go to sleep, I tend to sleep exceedingly poorly, possibly because of my body being conditioned to expect certain items before sleep. This effect possibly also has potential psycho****tic elements behind it, though I have not really tested the psychological aspect enough to consider it more than a possibility.

[RB12]

I always work out in the evenings, 2-4 hours prebed, so it would be nice to know if it is just as effective to take antioxidants in the mornings.

I am experimenting with switching my anti-o's to morning. However, i did a slight change in training too, but once everything stabilizes, I will let you know any anecdotal feedback of doing so

I have not been kept awake or had my sleep disturbed in any way by an element of my anti-ox cocktails, ever.

In fact, one sort of odd side effects is that now if I drink a bunch and try to go to sleep, I tend to sleep exceedingly poorly, possibly because of my body being conditioned to expect certain items before sleep. This effect possibly also has potential psycho****tic elements behind it, though I have not really tested the psychological aspect enough to consider it more than a possibility.

I'm sorry, you drink a bunch of what pre bed? Are you saying when you don't take your anti-o pre-bed you have poor sleep?

[EMISGOD]

I have not been kept awake or had my sleep disturbed in any way by an element of my anti-ox cocktails, ever.

In fact, one sort of odd side effects is that now if I drink a bunch and try to go to sleep, I tend to sleep exceedingly poorly, possibly because of my body being conditioned to expect certain items before sleep. This effect possibly also has potential psycho****tic elements behind it, though I have not really tested the psychological aspect enough to consider it more than a possibility.

I'm sorry, you drink a bunch of what pre bed?

IF I drink a bunch of alcoholic beverages.

Are you saying when you don't take your anti-o pre-bed you have poor sleep?

Not necessarily. I forget on occasion and as long as I have not been drinking heavily, it does not seem to affect sleep one way or the other.

[Blackjackcat]

I take my latest cocktail (ALA+Co-Q10, DS Vigor, 500mg chewable Vit. C) right before bed every night...

Emisgod, now that Vigor is dicontinued, what anti-ox are you going with? I really liked Vigor but now it looks like I am going to have to go with now vitaberry.

[EMISGOD]

Emisgod, now that Vigor is dicontinued, what anti-ox are you going with? I really liked Vigor but now it looks like I am going to have to go with now vitaberry.

Vigor. I am stocking up on it big-time...I have probably a dozen bottles sitting here with more on the way...if I can get a backlog to 2010, that should give me enough of a cushion to figure out what to do after that...

[Blackjackcat]

Vigor. I am stocking up on it big-time...I have probably a dozen bottles sitting here with more on the way...if I can get a backlog to 2010, that should give me enough of a cushion to figure out what to do after that...

LOL! I may have to do that. I did buy 5 bottles when I found a sweet deal on them. I am down to my last one so may have to stock up.